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Old 2013-09-04, 22:39   Link #33041
Renall
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On the bathroom situation:

The guest house does have gender specific bathrooms as it was built as a resort.

It would be unusual for the master bedroom not to have an ensuite, though I'll admit I don't know about older style mansions. However, I always thought that Krauss and Natsuhi had separate rooms, and she would definitely give him the master. Though bathing often falls by the wayside in Umineko, they certainly never do it in the morning before getting dressed. Maybe the Japanese are night bathers?
By appearance, Natsuhi's room is a master bedroom. Krauss's "bedroom" appears to also be his study. This is backed up by the PS3 version's backgrounds that actually show a bed in Krauss's study/room. So "Natsuhi's room" is actually the master bedroom, probably.

I find it very odd Krauss and Natsuhi wouldn't sleep together given how close they are. I know they're stressed but not so much with each other. The only explanation that made much sense is one that came up talking with Aura: Because Natsuhi's headaches can be pretty bad, and due to the time and stress of the conference, Krauss is sleeping in his study so she can sleep without being disturbed.

Cynically though, I believe the real answer is that Ryukishi didn't want to spoil the tension of the first morning on the 5th in Legend, so he inexplicably gave Natsuhi her own room so that she wouldn't reach certain immediate conclusions about the conference running late or something when she woke up and didn't find her husband in bed with her. I don't think Ryukishi even considered where Krauss would sleep until much later, as Krauss wasn't ever intended to survive the First Twilight anyway. He probably didn't come up with anything until End, in fact, when it finally gets brought up.
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Old 2013-09-04, 22:49   Link #33042
LyricalAura
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I find it very odd Krauss and Natsuhi wouldn't sleep together given how close they are. I know they're stressed but not so much with each other. The only explanation that made much sense is one that came up talking with Aura: Because Natsuhi's headaches can be pretty bad, and due to the time and stress of the conference, Krauss is sleeping in his study so she can sleep without being disturbed.
From familial experience I can note that sometimes loving couples regularly sleep in separate rooms for entirely pragmatic reasons, mainly involving chainsaw snoring.
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Old 2013-09-05, 02:07   Link #33043
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Considering how they were a forced marriage to begin with, maybe she was given a separate room then and it just always stayed that way. It would have been the kind thing for Krauss to do initially at least.

Yeah, now you mention it Krauss did never survive very long. I guess he probably knows too much, like a lot of people think he knew about Kuwadorian. That, and build character with one of the male adults? Pffffttttt.
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Old 2013-09-05, 02:12   Link #33044
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Also, I have gotten the impression from renovation shows that en-suites are sort of a newish thing, being that they are always being added in to older houses. This is speculation, but I would guess that in the days of old Victorian Mansions and the like (which the Ushiromiya house is based off I think), baths would have required filling by servants. Therefore, you would want the bathroom near your room, but not accessible purely from your room. Otherwise you would necessitate the servants coming through your room every time you wanted a bath, and one can't be having that.
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Old 2013-09-05, 08:10   Link #33045
Renall
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
From familial experience I can note that sometimes loving couples regularly sleep in separate rooms for entirely pragmatic reasons, mainly involving chainsaw snoring.
Right, which makes the migraines thing reasonable. But my mom had pretty bad migraines and my dad didn't not ever sleep in their bedroom. He might take a nap in a guestroom or on the couch, but it'd be pretty extraordinary for them never to be together.

Anyway I'd argue Natsuhi's room is the master bedroom, and Krauss just yielded it to his wife for her comfort because that's exactly the sort of thing he would do for her. I'm pretty sure they must've slept together for at least a while since they were trying to have a kid, and Krauss's study doesn't seem suited to being a master suite, so that's where I'd pin it in terms of what Natsuhi's room actually is. The bed in particular looks much larger than the beds in all the other screenshots.

The guesthouse probably has en-suite bathrooms in every room upstairs as well as communal bathrooms on the first floor near the lounge or in that central hallway. We know some of the mansion guestrooms have bathrooms because of the Logic Error, but I do think it's probable that the bathrooms are separate up on the second floor. On the other hand, en-suite bathrooms everywhere would make Beatrice's job very easy, as there'd be no chance of Jessica wandering around late at night because she needed to use the restroom and accidentally spotting something. Granted, she stays with the cousins in the stories to clear that up, but we don't know that she definitely would have and I don't think Yasu could've been sure of that. Then too, maybe that's why Jessica is written as moving to the guesthouse, so that issue can be avoided entirely.
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Old 2013-09-05, 11:48   Link #33046
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Krauss and Natsuhi's relationship does seem to have gotten a lot better as the series goes on. In EP5 they seemed really close, but in EP1 they didn't get along well at all. Natsuhi seems loyal to him for the sake of duty, but Krauss actually seems to find her more of a nuisance than anything. I mean, just look at this part:

Quote:
"......Ha, .........have I been, ............so undeserving of your trust............?"
".........I didn't mean it like that. It was only that there was no need to mention it."
"I, ......is that all a, ............a wife means to you............?!"
"Calm down... Becoming passionate easily is one of your bad habits."

"You're the one who's making me like that, aren't you!!! I have been supporting you as a wife ever since I married into this family...! For your sake, I threw away the family I was born into, I've been offering up my heart and my body to serve you...!! And in return, .........what is this.........!!? How could...... ............How could you............!!"

Krauss grimaced, looking annoyed...
His expression effectively communicated how much he disliked this part of Natsuhi...

"......It doesn't look like........., I will be of any use to you anymore............"
"Hmmm, that's fine. .........I can resolve the troubles with the siblings by myself. I don't need your help."
Looking back, actually, that whole scene seems pretty out of place. I'm not really sure what purpose this conflict between Natsuhi and Krauss could serve, and it doesn't seem to happen at all in any of the other episodes. I guess this is one of the earlier planned threads that Ryukishi never followed up on (or just forgot about).
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Old 2013-09-05, 12:49   Link #33047
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post

Looking back, actually, that whole scene seems pretty out of place. I'm not really sure what purpose this conflict between Natsuhi and Krauss could serve, and it doesn't seem to happen at all in any of the other episodes. I guess this is one of the earlier planned threads that Ryukishi never followed up on (or just forgot about).
I think it's used to build up Natsuhi as a character for EP1, since she's the main adult of that story. Yeah, it's not really addressed later on, but I'm not too sure it -needs- to be. (Since it doesn't serve any role outside of EP1)
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Old 2013-09-05, 13:10   Link #33048
Renall
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Looking back, actually, that whole scene seems pretty out of place. I'm not really sure what purpose this conflict between Natsuhi and Krauss could serve, and it doesn't seem to happen at all in any of the other episodes. I guess this is one of the earlier planned threads that Ryukishi never followed up on (or just forgot about).
It's a high stress situation, and I get the sense Krauss is pushing her away deliberately in order to avoid a situation like her fight with Eva. This is entirely consistent with his later characterization in ep5, where he's contemplating suicide just to spare Natsuhi his own dishonor. I think he's expecting to have to get taken to the cleaners or grovel a bit, and he'd rather Natsuhi not be there because she'd try to defend him. So he lets her get mad and feel like she's being ignored so that she'll actually go.
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Old 2013-09-05, 14:54   Link #33049
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Maybe the scene is another "lie", just like Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa being shocked when discovering the 2nd Twilight in EP1.
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Old 2013-09-05, 17:12   Link #33050
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Krauss and Natsuhi's relationship does seem to have gotten a lot better as the series goes on. In EP5 they seemed really close, but in EP1 they didn't get along well at all. Natsuhi seems loyal to him for the sake of duty, but Krauss actually seems to find her more of a nuisance than anything. I mean, just look at this part:



Looking back, actually, that whole scene seems pretty out of place. I'm not really sure what purpose this conflict between Natsuhi and Krauss could serve, and it doesn't seem to happen at all in any of the other episodes. I guess this is one of the earlier planned threads that Ryukishi never followed up on (or just forgot about).
It's possible this scene is also due to the reader subjectivity.
Krauss is the sort of guy who's apparently not good at dealing with others.
He might have meant to deal with the problem alone so as to spare Natsuhi, but Natsuhi misinterpret it and the reader went with it.

There's a scene with Krauss that stuck me. He's telling Eva to be more ladylike then Kinzo come in and hit him for his poor dealing with his siblings but then Kinzo argues with Eva and says he'll disinherit her if she doesn't do how he says and Krauss tells Eva to leave, adds Kinzo didn't mean it and that he'll take care of him.

If you look at the scene at first you've the feeling Krauss is being a jerk with Eva and that Kinzo is violent with his children and doesn't care about Eva.

But then Krauss tried to reassure Eva that Kinzo didn't mean to chase her away (when for Krauss it would probably be good if he didn't have to deal with Eva who wants his place, is smarter than him and looks down at him... not mentioning he'd just been hitted by Kinzo sort of due to her) so maybe was he, in his books, really trying to teach something to her?

Sure, what he's teaching is male supremacy but maybe, at the time, their world wasn't really into women's equality and Krauss didn't think it would so he believed Eva would have to learn to deal with a world in which women were vewed as inferior... or he was simply so influenced by Kinzo he didn't believe women could be equal because 'Kinzo couldn't be wrong'.

Also Kinzo... he seems to be a jerk to Eva, but he'd just hit Krauss, and not Eva, because he was handling his sister poorly.

So could it be the whole scene is seen by Eva's subjective point of view. A bit like when Battler said that that to Ange Kinzo was scary because she saw him yelling, but that was her perspective of that scene and not the TRUTH about Kinzo?

Eva took Krauss' words as an insult so they're represented in the scene as such, while Krauss meant them as a suggestion. Kinzo meant just to scold her while here he sounds like he looks at her like an inferior being because that's what Eva perceived, not what he meant.

And the same can be applied to the scene between Krauss and Natsuhi we were discussing above. Krauss meant to have Natsuhi rest and not be insulted but that's not what Natsuhi perceived. The scene is seen from her point of view so Krauss looks like a jerk.

(by the way no one thinks how odd is that Kinzo rant about girls knowing how to make tea, cooking and sewing when his beloved Beatrice claimed she can burn pasta to ashes implying she's a rather bad cook?)
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Old 2013-09-05, 19:16   Link #33051
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Right, which makes the migraines thing reasonable. But my mom had pretty bad migraines and my dad didn't not ever sleep in their bedroom. He might take a nap in a guestroom or on the couch, but it'd be pretty extraordinary for them never to be together.
Hmm, anecdotally my grandparents stopped sleeping in the same room for reasons of snoring (at least that is what they always said).

As for the bathrooms, how could you forget Hideyoshi ep 1? We learned about them long before the logic error
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Old 2013-09-05, 20:23   Link #33052
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I'm not really sure what purpose this conflict between Natsuhi and Krauss could serve, and it doesn't seem to happen at all in any of the other episodes. I guess this is one of the earlier planned threads that Ryukishi never followed up on (or just forgot about).
I heard a while ago that one of the plot threads Ryukishi abandoned was one of Natsuhi and Gohda having an affair. If so, it wouldn't be strange for Natsuhi and Krauss' relationship to be worse in ep 1 and improve later.
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Old 2013-09-05, 22:30   Link #33053
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(by the way no one thinks how odd is that Kinzo rant about girls knowing how to make tea, cooking and sewing when his beloved Beatrice claimed she can burn pasta to ashes implying she's a rather bad cook?)
Nothing about Kinzo's subsequent behavior has ever been very easy to reconcile with the small bit of romance we actually see in ep7. He either learned nothing from being with her (which is fine, but curiously underdeveloped thematically), the relationship was not as we perceived it or changed drastically (in ways we never get to see), or it's just weird writing.
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Old 2013-09-05, 23:11   Link #33054
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It's highly possible that he didn't learn anything from their relationship, like Renall says, and regarded Bice as a sparkling exception to his regular biases. Like, someone who casually drops homophobia in a conversation, but when you ask them about their gay friend Brad, it's just "... ... oh, that's Brad, though. Brad's cool."

I think it's more likely, though, that Kinzos character just changed a lot. What we see of him is the weepy old man we're already used to, and the then-unknown "middle aged, vaguely suicidal, alcoholic Kinzo" of 1945. It's only after those events that he took his position as Family Head seriously, and if the other elderly characters are to be believed (har har har), he got really wild with it, too.

It also bears to mind that his relationship with Bice was never under public (or anyone's, really) scrutiny. I remember reading this one story about this mixed race woman, whose father was a Senator who openly advocated for segregation and such, publicly, but he kept contact with her, even though she was illegitimate, and would apparently be all helpful and supportive and basically pretty decent when they spent time together, privately. People are strange.
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Old 2013-09-06, 09:11   Link #33055
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I think it's more likely, though, that Kinzos character just changed a lot. What we see of him is the weepy old man we're already used to, and the then-unknown "middle aged, vaguely suicidal, alcoholic Kinzo" of 1945. It's only after those events that he took his position as Family Head seriously, and if the other elderly characters are to be believed (har har har), he got really wild with it, too.
The problem I have with it is that he fell in love not just with her beauty, but with her intellect and kindness. So much so that he made the means of proving oneself to be Beatrice (or Beatrice's child/grandchild, or Beatrice's successor, whatever) an intellectual exercise, a puzzle. This woman's spirit revitalized his very will to live, apparently to an extreme. But the next we see of him (chronologically, anyway), he's yelling at his daughter for being intelligent and then some time thereafter he's trapped his other daughter in a cage, seemingly left her grossly ignorant of just about everything, and is taking advantage of her trust in horrific ways.

It's fine to say "people can change" or "people are different under different circumstances," and Kinzo might be an object lesson in that. The problem is... we don't really get to see any transition, just the after-image of a man decades after the transition event(s). We never see how Bice's immediate death affects him. We never see into his head to get a sense as to whether Eva's independence might be bringing up painful memories and that's the real reason he snaps at her (which would be cool, but again, kinda hard to know). We don't know how much of his late weepiness is genuine contrition and how much is just a selfish desire to see someone he loved (and used?) again.

If Kinzo's changes were meant to be a theme, we don't get enough meat to really dig into that. If it's meant to be a point about him that culminates in Battler's ep8 "You think that's how he was? Well, you must not remember then" argument, it doesn't quite get hammered home enough. It's not merely that there are questions unanswered (which can be fine under the right presentation), but that there are barely even hints as to how something changed, only hints that something did change.
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Old 2013-09-07, 17:48   Link #33056
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Here's an interpretation:

The story is a tragic coming-of-age story for Battler.

Battler at the start of VN is afraid of risks and is attracted to shallow things in women, both things that are make his character seem childlike. He says about the new boat, "as long as we get just a little less time exposed to the dangers of sinking, that's really just awesomely great." And he makes jokes about boobies.

As the VN progresses, he jumps out windows and takes confesses his love to Beatrice for mature reasons. Numerous references are made to the laws of probability and gambling, in analogy of the risks Battler takes fighting against the metaverse / Bernkastel to find a fragment with a happy ending. Beatrice showed Battler her seductress side and later her tragedy; Battler responded by becoming her protector.

Spoiler for Ending Spoiler:
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Old 2013-09-08, 12:17   Link #33057
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Quote:
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If Kinzo's changes were meant to be a theme, we don't get enough meat to really dig into that. If it's meant to be a point about him that culminates in Battler's ep8 "You think that's how he was? Well, you must not remember then" argument, it doesn't quite get hammered home enough. It's not merely that there are questions unanswered (which can be fine under the right presentation), but that there are barely even hints as to how something changed, only hints that something did change.
I think the one big problem I have with Umineko, despite still preferring it to many other genre critiques and/or mystery attempts in popculture, is that it didn't do well in reconciling it's different themes in the end.
On the one hand there is the whole story about emotions hampering a complete understanding, both in the absolute good sense as also in the absolute bad sense. This was mainly portrayed by Battler's inability to blame anybody in the first four arcs and Erika's willingness to blame anybody in Chiru. So in a way it is saying, you need a certain amount of distance.
On the other hand it gives this idea of the incapability to ever have a complete understanding of anything, even yourself, because you never are in a position of distance to anything. By this it basically refuses the basic idea of detective fiction and drives the Later Queen Problem to an utmost extreme.

I wouldn't say this can't be done, but I understand why it bothers people. They were introduced to this story as a detective mystery and they end up with not knowing who any of these characters were. This is all well and good as a commentary, but as a story it is actually lacking I'd say.
In fiction we are used to characters being round and Umineko's characters, like people we know in real life, are missing several areas of that. It's like the pictures and stories we get presented by your grandparents, about their adventures in the war, anecdotes from life before that. I heard stories of my grandfather being a farmhands son in Silesia under Prussian rule, I heard excerpts from his youth and that he had to join the army in Nazi-Germany but then defected, I can't ask him now since he died. I was told my grandmother worked in a factory in Germany during the war and helped a family escape SS control, but she died when I was very young. These are points in time, but I will for example never know or understand in details, how the man from the pictures around 1941 became my grandfather whom I spoke to about the picture in 1996.
Similarly, learning about Kinzo is a very real experience, but it is equally frustrating, because fiction "is supposed to strive towards rounding a character" in classical theory. This becomes especially important in a mystery, because missing information becomes an eternally missing piece of the puzzle.

This is why I still think Umineko makes an interesting comment about mystery puzzlers...while not exactly being a very good "novel".
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Old 2013-09-08, 14:52   Link #33058
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At some point, we realize that the character of AUTHORSHIP of the stories is more important than the characters of the stories themselves. This is probably after EP4 when the focus turns to "Who is Beatrice?" Once we realize that Beatrice is telling these stories to show something to Battler, we have to know that the narrative is subject to bias. So instead of asking "How come Kinzo did such-and-such here but something else there?", we need to ask "Why did the author choose to change the character of Kinzo? What does this say about the author/Beatrice?"

The problem is further complicated when we realize that Beatrice isn't actually the one writing "what WE see" and that all but EP1&EP2 message bottles are Forgeries in 1998. Yet, Battler and Beatrice both acknowledge, in EP4, that Beatrice has changed in both character and game strategy since EP2. This is why I subscribe to the theory that even though EP1 and EP2 are based on the message bottles, the same author of EP3-EP6 adapted the message bottles into Episodes that falls in the same continuity as the others. The author analyzed the writing of the message bottles and decided "This is a love story", created the motive he/she thought was indicated in the message bottles, and wrote EP1-EP6.
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Old 2013-09-09, 01:39   Link #33059
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It's fine to say "people can change" or "people are different under different circumstances," and Kinzo might be an object lesson in that. The problem is... we don't really get to see any transition, just the after-image of a man decades after the transition event(s).
Hm, I think it's very fair to feel dissatisfied with that. Going by EP8's treatment of Genji, though (a.k.a "Oh hey I wonder what actually happened during those transitive decades to make him like this, well, none of my business, really") the plot itself seems to want us to just accept that that's how Kinzo was in 1945, and that's how Kinzo was by the time he'd died, and we're vaguely told about a bunch of rather vicious behavior in between.

Ryukishi seems to reflect on this problem briefly in the EP8 TP, via Featherine's pondering on knowing when she's written enough :
"...my old friend, who is now gone... once said that a human's life is an adventure from beginning to end, so there is never a correct time to set down one's pen.

... ... I do not agree. I think one must put away the pen at some point. I believe one should write a tale to an appropriate point, then leave the aftertaste and opinions to the minds of the spectators."


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At some point, we realize that the character of AUTHORSHIP of the stories is more important than the characters of the stories themselves. This is probably after EP4 when the focus turns to "Who is Beatrice?" Once we realize that Beatrice is telling these stories to show something to Battler, we have to know that the narrative is subject to bias. So instead of asking "How come Kinzo did such-and-such here but something else there?", we need to ask "Why did the author choose to change the character of Kinzo? What does this say about the author/Beatrice?"

The problem is further complicated when we realize that Beatrice isn't actually the one writing "what WE see" and that all but EP1&EP2 message bottles are Forgeries in 1998. Yet, Battler and Beatrice both acknowledge, in EP4, that Beatrice has changed in both character and game strategy since EP2. This is why I subscribe to the theory that even though EP1 and EP2 are based on the message bottles, the same author of EP3-EP6 adapted the message bottles into Episodes that falls in the same continuity as the others. The author analyzed the writing of the message bottles and decided "This is a love story", created the motive he/she thought was indicated in the message bottles, and wrote EP1-EP6.
Well, I know that the story I'm reading was written by a man in Japan who goes by Ryukishi, and I'm assuming he knows his own characters, especially since those characters are more consistently portrayed than they are not.

This is kinda what upset me a bit about Chiru, though, as you say, the story became about the story, and the humans were more or less reduced to being, well, "mere pieces". Not gonna lie, it was kind of hard to swallow when the tone of the story left no doubt that "Yeah, they are all definitely, definitely totally dead for ever and ever and nobody can ever stop that from having happened."

I'unno, I was definitely holding out hope for that Happy Ending for a long, long time.
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Old 2013-09-09, 08:31   Link #33060
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At some point, we realize that the character of AUTHORSHIP of the stories is more important than the characters of the stories themselves. This is probably after EP4 when the focus turns to "Who is Beatrice?" Once we realize that Beatrice is telling these stories to show something to Battler, we have to know that the narrative is subject to bias. So instead of asking "How come Kinzo did such-and-such here but something else there?", we need to ask "Why did the author choose to change the character of Kinzo? What does this say about the author/Beatrice?"
Two things about this, though:
  • We barely know anything about the supposed authors. In fact, we barely even have it fully pinned down who wrote what. For the original message bottle writer, we're missing several crucial years and have to negotiate three self-inserts and only vague ideas as to how autobiographical those characters' thoughts and words actually are. For Tohya and Ikuko... well, we really don't know that much about them at all, especially Ikuko. Their writing might be able to tell us something, but between the fantasy/meta layering and Featherine's "reader" conundrum it's hard to know which parts reflect them as authors and which parts are being read in or paved over by the meta-narrative. And then we have stuff like Requiem where we don't know who wrote the individual parts or if anyone even did, and Twilight where we don't know whose head any of this is even going on in specifically and whether they know anything at all about the authors to begin with.
  • Even if the character is being used in their portrayal, they need to be a fully-formed character within that context, and over time they ought to be fully-realized within the context of the greater canon. The Kyrie/Rudolf Culprit thing kind of throws a wrench in that, and while discussion of that idea could be an interesting theme - If one portrayal is completely at odds with another, can they both be right? Can neither? - it doesn't really get much discussion.
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Hm, I think it's very fair to feel dissatisfied with that. Going by EP8's treatment of Genji, though (a.k.a "Oh hey I wonder what actually happened during those transitive decades to make him like this, well, none of my business, really") the plot itself seems to want us to just accept that that's how Kinzo was in 1945, and that's how Kinzo was by the time he'd died, and we're vaguely told about a bunch of rather vicious behavior in between.
It really does kind of reduce his backstory to a plot device, which I think is problematic. It's possible to use a character's development as a plot device in a way that actually assists the narrative. As an example, ep5 Natsuhi is a good culmination of what we've learned about her with a crucial bit of new information, and that information in aggregate lets us agree with Battler that she couldn't be the culprit even without specific "proof" of it. Because she has been developed to the point that we don't accept that she would be motivated in such a fashion. She has essentially become too human to be a suspect anymore.

The problem is the whole mess with the is-Yasu-or-isn't-Yasu stuff and the question as to whether the culprit is being humanized to the point that you can understand what motivated them, or whether we're meant to reach a similar conclusion about whether Yasu could really do it like we did with Natsuhi, and if so then has the actual culprit been humanized enough etc. etc. etc., and we really have no idea.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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