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Old 2013-09-14, 01:34   Link #4361
LostSome
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I don`t remember Thoma or Lily even using their as weapons, just weights.
Do we even know if Thoma, Lily and the other Eclipse Drivers can use the AEC ?
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Old 2013-09-14, 02:09   Link #4362
Akiyoshi
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Yeah, but magic makes you physically stronger so eventually its a moot point.
Not when outside magic gets cancelled, Tohma did it once and Vita was forced to land because she was losing her flight magic so there's the latent risk of someone nullifying their ability to strenght their bodies which is were training comes into usefullness. Vita was able to lift the heavy War Hammer even under such condition while Cinque even lampshaded how good Nanoha's physical condition is by pointing out how she can maneuver the Stirke Cannon just fine despite having thin arms.

Muscle mass is not everything, it's actually pretty frequent to see thin or unfit looking people that is just as strong or even stronger than musclebound big weights. The formers probably also did a lot of excercise and training to become that strong but didn't focused on tunning their outside appearance.
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Old 2013-09-14, 12:06   Link #4363
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Aki, that doesn't change a goddamn thing about how people with linker cores develop physically stronger than regular people. Mages are physically stronger than normal people and it has not a damn thing to do with magic cancelation if it occurs.
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Old 2013-09-14, 13:08   Link #4364
Akiyoshi
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Caro and Lutecia doesn't seem to be particularly big powerhouses and both are very experienced magic users by now. What the main cast have is fit condition and military training, Tohma and Isis are strong but untrained, the trainning helps them to develope the stamina and instincts necessary to wield the equippement and to sustain the pace of the forwards. Caro is tiny and thin but trains consrantly and remains in very good condition.

Magic enhaces their strenght but against foes who can cancel magic they must also mantain a realible physical condition.
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Old 2013-09-14, 14:20   Link #4365
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Caro and Lutecia doesn't seem to be particularly big powerhouses and both are very experienced magic users by now. What the main cast have is fit condition and military training, Tohma and Isis are strong but untrained, the trainning helps them to develope the stamina and instincts necessary to wield the equippement and to sustain the pace of the forwards. Caro is tiny and thin but trains consrantly and remains in very good condition.

Magic enhaces their strenght but against foes who can cancel magic they must also mantain a realible physical condition.
You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying that magic can enhance their strength. I'm saying mages are physically stronger, at the biological level.

Just look at Quint. Unenhanced normal human mage. Physically stronger than both Ginga and Subaru, who are unable to properly use both Revolver Knuckles at once, while she can, and they're both enhanced combat cyborgs.
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Old 2013-09-14, 14:57   Link #4366
Akiyoshi
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Quint is referred to as being an uncmmon titan of a woman. If what you're refering were true then stuff like enginered human enhacements and the cyborg project would be pointless if mages can commonly become stronger than such constructs.
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Old 2013-09-14, 15:19   Link #4367
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Not everyone's going to be as strong as Quint, obviously. But it is proof that mages are stronger than regular humans.

Also you missed the point about why engineered humans were being made in Nanoha. It had nothing to do with just raw strength or power in a human being--it was about consistent strength levels in mass produced units. It didn't need to be monstrously high to be effective, they just needed enough people with that same strength and capability.
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Old 2013-09-14, 17:43   Link #4368
Akiyoshi
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It's proof that Quint is a exceptinally strong human and a exceptionally powerfull mage.

As i said, i assume Nanoha can't beat a wrestler with her muscles alone. When she's not using magic she doesn't seems to be inhumanly strong or anything.
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Old 2013-09-14, 19:02   Link #4369
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Aki, that doesn't change a goddamn thing about how people with linker cores develop physically stronger than regular people. Mages are physically stronger than normal people and it has not a damn thing to do with magic cancelation if it occurs.
Whooaa, wait a sec, where did that come from? Source, please?
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Old 2013-09-14, 19:13   Link #4370
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Involves Nanoha lifting a Strike Cannon in one hand and Fortress in the other....
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Old 2013-09-14, 19:38   Link #4371
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And magic is not involved in that? Because pretty sure back when I still read that 'thing' someone replied to my protest on how heavy that gear must be with "LOLMagic, STFU!"

Because unless there's explicit canonical statement that "mages are indeed physically stronger than normals even without magical strength enhancement", then that line is just an assumption. Maybe it's a strong assumption, maybe it's not, but it's still just an assumption. So while you're free to accept it as your headcanon, others are equally free to not accept it and use their own assumption.
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Old 2013-09-14, 19:49   Link #4372
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The only characters I believe who can lift the Strike Cannon (without magical enhancement) are Zafira or Subaru.

Zafira because muscles and Subaru because she's a cyborg.
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Old 2013-09-14, 20:09   Link #4373
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...aaaand still more assumptions without direct canonical source.
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Old 2013-09-14, 20:16   Link #4374
Akiyoshi
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The Strike Cannon is not THAT heavy and besides, Humans aren't that wimpy either. We spend our common days going to anime conventions and commenting on forums with the ocassional visit to the gym (sans for some exceptions i remeber a guy posting here some time ago who said he was a martial artist or something xD).

Tohma and Isis had more trouble by moving around with the cannons that lifting them. It's understandable if you're not used to carry heavy weights around you'll find yourself exhausted very quickly even if you can lift said weight wothout much effort. The Strike Cannon is a personal weapon designed for melee and ranged combat and as such is intended to be carried around. Nanoha have pretty good physical condition and experience handling heavy weaponry. Remember Vasquez from the movie "Aliens" she's small and thin but can carry bigass futuristic machine guns just as well as her more muscular companions ...and she doesn't have any magical powers or unnatural enhacements of any kind (aside maybe steroids or another military drug).

Try to compare yourself with people who trains to fight and carry heavy stuff everyday and you'll see some serious stuff xD

Hayate may be about right on Caro being already strong enough to beat normal guys into a pulp even without using magic due to a combination of daily training and martial arts training from Nanoha (implying Nanoha also knows at least a small degree of unarmed combat xD).
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Old 2013-09-14, 20:33   Link #4375
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Tiresias, my proof is in the form of Quint Nakajima. She's an unaltered mage who is strong enough to dual-wield the Revolver Knuckles when cyborgs can't even do that properly for any extended length of time. There is a Sound Stage where Subaru directly admits she is not strong enough to properly use the two Knuckles at the same time, yet her mother can without any need for a cyborg frame or the like.

Quint may be uncommon amongst mages but this pretty much shows that a mage is much more physically stronger than a regular human being. I'm sure training is involved like everything else, but I'm sure you can see how something of that level is beyond the limits of a regular human being.
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Old 2013-09-14, 20:54   Link #4376
Tiresias
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Quint may be uncommon amongst mages but this pretty much shows that a mage is much more physically stronger than a regular human being.
You do not chose an exception as proof of what counts as baseline mage. Seriously, that's like saying your average person is as fast as Usain Bolt.
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Old 2013-09-14, 21:16   Link #4377
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Sure you can. That's kind of the whole point. A baseline mage barely above E-rank is just a normal person as far as physiology goes. Teana at the start of StrikerS was just as squishy as any baseline person would be. Quint was exceptional as a mage, and she was exceptional as a physical fighter as well. Every high-ranking mage we've seen has pulled physical feats no normal person could have, which is RD's point.
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Old 2013-09-14, 21:30   Link #4378
Tiresias
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Ahaha, no. According to this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Yeah, but magic makes you physically stronger
Teana would have showed greater physical strength than a normal person, even at the start of person. Why? Because she's already B, which by the way is a higher rank than E, the rank you said to be "just a normal person as far as physiology goes".

But as you said yourself

Quote:
Teana at the start of StrikerS was just as squishy as any baseline person would be.
In other words...no.

You want to prove that mages are physically stronger than males? Using outliers is the wrong way to do it. You have to show the statistics. Use a sizable amount of test case, enough to represent the entire population of the Bureau (read, ALL of them, not just Midchilda and Earth), and then show that yes, out of those case more than 95% shows that mages indeed got extra STR points compared to non-mages.

But that's impossible, of course. We don't know enough people on that universe to draw conclusions. Which is why, from the very beginning, I suggest proving it using the one thing that's available:

WORD. OF. GOD.
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Old 2013-09-14, 21:56   Link #4379
Akiyoshi
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That and we don't know how much of Quint's fearsome might came from her natural physical strenght and how much from magic self-enhacement. She probably simply was a more powerfull mage than Subaru, Ginga and Nove.

Teana and Nanoha by the end of StrikerS are probably around a similar level of physical strenght yet Nanoha can do stuff like tanking Subaru's fist just because she's just that powerfull with magic and as such can enhace the protection around her body to do such a thing.
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Old 2013-09-14, 22:06   Link #4380
Rising Dragon
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There's instances that can't be explained by active magical enhancement. If it was only through major magical enhancement, then Quint would've been burning through cartridges, which I seriously doubt given the dangers of magical overload. Cartridges are for brief charges that are often used up in the following attack. Quint was very likely carrying around the Revolver Knuckles in battle of her own strength.

Subaru and Teana? In the manga Subaru can send Teana flying through the air on her own (much to the redhead's ire). But conversely in the anime, Teana first thing in the morning is physically strong enough to kick Subaru, metal skeleton and all, off of her while flat on her back on a bed. And she's able to do so without really hurting herself. Kicking a combat cyborg that's kneeling above you while you're on your back and doing so without breaking your leg has to be an impressive feat, especially for a sixteen-year-old girl. And I doubt she used some active magical enhancement to do that.

And at this point we should take this to the Magic and Tech thread.
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