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Old 2013-09-21, 19:12   Link #9301
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The Freedom having propulsion doesn't mean it can achieve escape velocity. It cannot. It does not have the thruster strength, and it does not have the fuel needed to achieve such a feat on its own power.
I didn't say it can. I said achieving escape velocity is irrelevant.
Quote:
Except that's exactly what did happen in the show. It couldn't keep up.
How can you even interpret the scene like that? We have Kira deciding not to follow and then moving away and slowing down. Of course the shuttle would leave it behind, because Kira slowed down.
Quote:
No, you didn't. All you've done is ignore why it's an inconsistency. If the Freedom could do so, they would've used that to get Lacus safely into space, without risking her life by putting her into ZAFT territory to steal a shuttle from Durandal's spare. That in itself is the inconsistency--if they already had what they needed to get her to space, they wouldn't need to steal it to get her to space. So if the Freedom could do that on its own--inconsistency! So stop trying to defend it. To do otherwise just makes you a liar.
And as I said, the reason was Lacus didn't want Kira to leave the Archangel. Heck, she's even in more danger now that ZAFT knows Lacus was the one in the shuttle, and yet the reason why Lacus reject Kira's offer is because she didn't want him to leave the Archangel behind. That is the explicitly stated reason, not because Kira couldn't take her.
Quote:
Prove to me that the Freedom slowed down.
He was staying ahead of the shuttle, then he relents to Lacus's wish, then he moved away and stayed behind.

That is the order of event. The shuttle didn't leave him behind while Kira still wants to follow Lacus. The shuttle left him behind after he gives up on following Lacus and moves away.
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Old 2013-09-21, 19:24   Link #9302
Rising Dragon
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Okay, on a completely unrelated note, what the fuck do you keep doing to your posts, monster? There is no goddamn formatting whenever I quote them.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I didn't say it can. I said achieving escape velocity is irrelevant.
Achieving escape velocity is the key fucking point in escaping the planet's gravitational pull, monster!

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
How can you even interpret the scene like that? We have Kira deciding not to follow and then moving away and slowing down. Of course the shuttle would leave it behind, because Kira slowed down.
Except Kira didn't slow down. All we saw was it move aside. There was no visual change to it slowing down, no actively decreased thrust. We did not see the Freedom slow down, we only saw the shuttle speed up.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And as I said, the reason was Lacus didn't want Kira to leave the Archangel. Heck, she's even in more danger now that ZAFT knows Lacus was the one in the shuttle, and yet the reason why Lacus reject Kira's offer is because she didn't want him to leave the Archangel behind. That is the explicitly stated reason, not because Kira couldn't take her. He was staying ahead of the shuttle, then he relents to Lacus's wish, then he moved away and stayed behind.
And what exactly is stopping them from telling the Archangel to keep clear of danger and stay under the radar until the Freedom returns? That's part of the inconsistency you keep ignoring, monster. Having the Archangel wait while the Freedom takes Lacus off the planet and come back is infinitely safer than stealing a fucking shuttle that almost gets blown to pieces.

Kira could've still argue with Lacus to let him stay with her once up in space, and still have Lacus tell him to return to the Archangel to keep it safe. Like I said--in the canon, Kira's actions are irrational, fueled by his emotions.

They had to take the shuttle because they had no other fucking choice, because the Freedom can't achieve escape velocity on its goddamn own!

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That is the order of event. The shuttle didn't leave him behind while Kira still wants to follow Lacus. The shuttle left him behind after he gives up on following Lacus and moves away.
No, that only proves that the shuttle sped up and that the Freedom moved to the side.

If the Freedom wanted to go to space on its own, it'd need nuclear thrusters rather than conventional rockets. The Freedom does not have nuclear thrusters, because if it did, Lacus and Meer and so many goddamn other people would be dead right now.
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Old 2013-09-21, 19:40   Link #9303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The Kusanagi was a much larger structure, able to support the Freedom's weight without tearing itself apart, and it also had more available purchases for it to put its weight into. The Freedom and Justice were able to stand on the structure as well as hold on with an arm or two. Meer's shuttle, on the other hand, did not have these same advantages.
Well the Freedom's strength was durable enough to hold itself onto a speeding Kusanagi with one arm and pull the entire weight of Justice with the other with no apparant damage to it.

As far as the shuttle, it's still at least 3 times as big as the Freedom if not more. Enough room for Freedom to get on its back, fold up its wings and ride it up, using it's phase shift to ride out the heat.

I mean if those little lifter things can support and MS's weight, the shuttle easily can.
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Old 2013-09-21, 19:48   Link #9304
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You... are not helping, Aquaman.

The Kusanagi at that point wasn't at escape velocity at the time, and the Freedom did not carry the Justice's weight (which, I might add, was lessened given the thrust of the Justice to help support that carry) the entire trip up into space. If the Freedom had tried that while it was reaching escape velocity, then it would almost assuredly get torn off. And as it stands, the Freedom and Justice's weight only increased the amount of work the Kusanagi had to do to achieve escape velocity, due to the extra weight they added atop its own.

Furthermore, the Freedom putting its weight on the shuttle would've likely kept the damn thing in atmosphere and prevent it from achieving escape velocity. It'll throw off the shuttle's thrust-to-weight ratio when you add the extra 71.5 tons on top of it. And if it puts the thrust-to-weight ratio below one, then no amount of extra thrusters you add will help it achieve escape velocity--it will not happen.

And what the hell's this about heat? Heat has no factor here, this is not re-entry we're discussing.
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Old 2013-09-21, 20:05   Link #9305
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Okay, on a completely unrelated note, what the fuck do you keep doing to your posts, monster? There is no goddamn formatting whenever I quote them.
I'm not sure.
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Achieving escape velocity is the key fucking point in escaping the planet's gravitational pull, monster!
No, achieving escape velocity is the key to escaping the planet's gravitational pull without further propulsion from that point forward.
Quote:
Except Kira didn't slow down. All we saw was it move aside. There was no visual change to it slowing down, no actively decreased thrust. We did not see the Freedom slow down, we only saw the shuttle speed up.
Destiny never showed that level of detail anyway. There is no reason for him to keep at the same speed when he is no longer trying to follow Lacus. So him moving away and falling behind is enough to show the intent of that scene. That he is letting go of Lacus.
Quote:
And what exactly is stopping them from telling the Archangel to keep clear of danger and stay under the radar until the Freedom returns? That's part of the inconsistency you keep ignoring, monster. Having the Archangel wait while the Freedom takes Lacus off the planet and come back is infinitely safer than stealing a fucking shuttle that almost gets blown to pieces.
And if they were caught anyway? With Andrew gone, they have no other mobile suit pilot. Lacus doesn't want to take that chance.
Quote:
Kira could've still argue with Lacus to let him stay with her once up in space, and still have Lacus tell him to return to the Archangel to keep it safe. Like I said--in the canon, Kira's actions are irrational, fueled by his emotions.

They had to take the shuttle because they had no other fucking choice, because the Freedom can't achieve escape velocity on its goddamn own!
It doesn't matter what Kira could've argued. He didn't, so the reason is still because Lacus didn't want him to leave the Archangel for space.
Quote:
No, that only proves that the shuttle sped up and that the Freedom moved to the side.
Considering the context, it is more likely that Kira slowed down and let Lacus go than for the Freedom not to be able to keep up with the shuttle.
Quote:
If the Freedom wanted to go to space on its own, it'd need nuclear thrusters rather than conventional rockets. The Freedom does not have nuclear thrusters, because if it did, Lacus and Meer and so many goddamn other people would be dead right now.
You don't need nuclear thruster to go to space.
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Old 2013-09-21, 20:39   Link #9306
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
You... are not helping, Aquaman.
Well considering Kira says he wants to go and Lacus acts like he is indeed able to do so there are only two options.

1. He was planning on latching on somehow and riding up with them.

2. Freedom can get to space on its own.

Since 2 is largely out 1 is the only other option.
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Old 2013-09-21, 22:13   Link #9307
Kuroi Hadou
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Alright, people. Let's put an end to this once and for all, because I'm sick of it, and you've all forced me to actually do math I had no intention of doing today but certain people being stupid have forced me to. And because a certain someone is insistent escape velocity by itself doesn't matter, we'll work with something that does.

So, assuming a perfectly ideal mass ratio on the Freedom and that miniaturization let us get equal performance in the Freedom as the massive rockets the Saturn V used during take of, we get the basic deltaV budget for the Freedom (assuming its propellant tanks are completely full.)

Code:
Δv = Ve * ln[R]
Δv = 3,000 m/s * In[4.95]
Δv = 4,798 m/s

where

Δv = craft's total deltaV capability (m/s)
Ve = exhaust velocity of propulsion system (m/s)
R = craft's mass ratio
ln[x] = natural logarithm of x, the "ln" key on your calculator
Now that we have the Freedom's deltaV budget, let's see what we can do with it. First, let's calculate the deltaV budget to escape Earth:

Code:
Δesc = sqrt[ (2 * G * Pm) / Pr ]

Where:

Δesc = deltaV to escape Earth's orbit (m/s)
G = 0.00000000006673 or 6.673e-11 (gravitational constant)
Pm = planet's mass (kg)
Pr = planet's radius (m)
sqrt[x] = square root of x
For Earth, we get:

Code:
Δesc = sqrt[(2 * 6.673e-11* 5.97219e24) / 6.371e6]
Δesc = 11,190 m/s
Uhoh. Freedom is already so far in a hole we can forget about escaping. What about orbit? Probably more reasonable. Let's calculate that and throw in a few things like gravitational pull, atmospheric drag, and acceleration. For that, we use this string of equations:

Code:
Δvo = sqrt[ (G * Pm) / Pr ]
Apg = A / gp
Δvd = Δvo / Apg
Δtvo = Δvo + Δvd + Δva

where:

Δvo = deltaV to lift off into orbit (m/s)
G = 6.673e-11 (gravitational constant)
Pm = planet's mass (kg)
Pr = planet's radius (m)
sqrt[x] = square root of x
Apg = acceleration of craft in terms of planetary gravities
A = craft's acceleration (m/s2)
gp = acceleration due to gravity on planet's surface (m/s2)
Δvd = deltaV to counteract gravitational drag (m/s)
Δtvo = total orbital deltaV (m/s2)
Δva = deltaV to counteract atmospheric drag (m/s2)
So let's just go through these once at a time. First, the deltaV to establish orbit.

Code:
Δvo = sqrt[ (G * Pm) / Pr ]
Δvo = sqrt[ (6.673e-11* 5.97219e24) / 6.371e6 ]
Δvo = 7909 m/s
Well... this doesn't bode well. Using the assumptions above, Freedom's deltaV budget is still only half way to where it needs to be to establish orbit. Still, let's run through the rest of the formulae just to see how much further we need to go.

First, we calculate gravitational drag. Let's assume a stupid ridiculous acceleration of 20 G, and that Kira could actually survive that.

Code:
Apg = A / gp
Apg = 20 / 9.81
Apg = 2.04
So the Freedom can accelerate at a little over 2 Earth Gravities. From there, we calculate the actual gravitational drag.

Code:
Δvd = Δvo / Apg
Δvd = 7909 / 2.04
Δvd = 3877 m/s
Now we get to factor in our total deltaV budget the Freedom would need to establish orbit. Atmospheric drag is stupid difficult to calculate, so as a general rule it's usually taken as 610 m/s. So...

Code:
Δtvo = Δvo + Δvd + Δva
Δtvo = 7909 m/s + 3877 m/s + 610 m/s
Δtvo = 12396 m/s
Now... what was the Freedom's actual deltaV again? Oh right.

Code:
Δv = Ve * ln[R]
Δv = 3,000 m/s * In[4.95]
Δv = 4,798 m/s
The Freedom is ~1/3 of the way to orbit and nowhere closer if it's on the ground with completely full fuel tanks, insane acceleration that would kill any human, and a damn good amount of miniaturization.
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Old 2013-09-21, 22:39   Link #9308
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You do realize according to actual physics Freedom shouldn't even be able to stand, let alone fly in atmosphere like it does?
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Old 2013-09-21, 22:40   Link #9309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
You do realize according to actual physics Freedom shouldn't even be able to stand, let alone fly in atmosphere like it does?
Granted, but I'm not the one who kept insisting the Freedom could do things it obviously can't.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:00   Link #9310
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Well considering Kira says he wants to go and Lacus acts like he is indeed able to do so there are only two options.

1. He was planning on latching on somehow and riding up with them.

2. Freedom can get to space on its own.

Since 2 is largely out 1 is the only other option.
1 is largely out because Kira did not do so immediately as soon as he reached the shuttle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
The Freedom is ~1/3 of the way to orbit and nowhere closer if it's on the ground with completely full fuel tanks, insane acceleration that would kill any human, and a damn good amount of miniaturization.
Arguing that the Freedom should not be able to do it is not going to change the fact that Kira intended to do it, and neither Lacus nor Andrew thought it was impossible. They only don't want to leave the Archangel behind.

So, regardless of how bad you think the math/science is, there is only one in-story conclusion: That Kira would've been able to take the Freedom to space had Lacus agreed.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:05   Link #9311
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Did you just seriously ignore all of that, monster? For the sake of your own convenience?

They likely didn't point it out to him because all three of them knew it was impossible. It was a mobile suit, not a fucking rocket ship. And again, if it could, it'd cause a huge storyline inconsistency! So either you're ignoring that, or you're lying when you said you'd be against such large inconsistencies.

This is why no one likes a debate about a SEED problem when you get involved. To you it's not a goddamn problem.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:13   Link #9312
monster
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Did you just seriously ignore all of that, monster? For the sake of your own convenience?
We're just going to argue over escape velocity again, and I'm done with that.

It also assumes that the Freedom only has a deltaV of 4,798 m/s, which I'm not going to argue over either, as we don't have any info regarding that.

So it's pointless for me to address that.
Quote:
They likely didn't point it out to him because all three of them knew it was impossible. It was a mobile suit, not a fucking rocket ship.
I find it hard to believe that they would just ignore such a big glaring impossibility.
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And again, if it could, it'd cause a huge storyline inconsistency! So either you're ignoring that, or you're lying when you said you'd be against such large inconsistencies.
I've addressed the inconsistency that have been brought up so far.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:19   Link #9313
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
So it's pointless for me to address that. I find it hard to believe that they would just ignore such a big glaring impossibility.
You... seem to have an extremely massive amount of faith that the people who wrote this had any clue what sort of science was involved.

...Or cared, for that matter. o.O

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1 is largely out because Kira did not do so immediately as soon as he reached the shuttle. Arguing that the Freedom should not be able to do it is not going to change the fact that Kira intended to do it, and neither Lacus nor Andrew thought it was impossible. They only don't want to leave the Archangel behind.

So, regardless of how bad you think the math/science is, there is only one in-story conclusion: That Kira would've been able to take the Freedom to space had Lacus agreed.
I wasn't aware this show turned into Gurren Lagann and Kira used his hotblooded Spiral Power to kick reason to the curb.

Seriously, that's the show. It's also what Orks do. And the Freedom isn't even freaking red.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:23   Link #9314
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It wouldn't be much of a big glaring impossibility if he used something else to get him into space, like the booster they used for the Strike Rouge. The Freedom simply can't get up there on it's own. It is a mobile suit designed for war. ZAFT designed it to destroy enemy mobile suits, not to make trips back and forth between Earth and space. All of its functions were geared towards combat speed, maneuverability, and heavy cannon weaponry. If ZAFT wanted it back into space, they'd load it up into a mobile suit cargo container and fucking launch it up there with a mass accelerator.

It cannot latch onto the shuttle because it'd only prevent the shuttle from getting to space. If it didn't just kill the shuttle in the process. If it could do so on its own, they would've had Kira take Lacus up there safe and sound without risking her life stealing a ZAFT shuttle from Durandal's own Lacus impersonator. Storywise they could've shut down the same argument they had between the Freedom and the shuttle--that much won't really change. The Archangel's crew would have done what it could to keep Lacus safe, you KNOW that.

That means if the Freedom had the deltaV budget to accomplish the trip and escape Earth's gravitational pull, IT IS A MASSIVE INCONSISTENCY IN THE STORY.

Stop trying to deny the reality of the situation just because someone pointed out that Destiny was flawed in its depiction of the scene. This is beneath you and it's beneath us and it's a fucking disappointment that you'd go this low.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:43   Link #9315
monster
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Originally Posted by Old_Iron View Post
You... seem to have an extremely massive amount of faith that the people who wrote this had any clue what sort of science was involved.

...Or cared, for that matter. o.O
Actually, I just don't even think about the external factors. At the end of the day, it's about your suspension of disbelief. That's why I like that there's not much info on CE technology. It makes it easier for me to accept whatever crazy idea they could think of. Freedom being able to catch up to a speeding shuttle? Fine by me.
Quote:
I wasn't aware this show turned into Gurren Lagann and Kira used his hotblooded Spiral Power to kick reason to the curb.

Seriously, that's the show. It's also what Orks do. And the Freedom isn't even freaking red.
I never got around to watching Gurren.
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
It wouldn't be much of a big glaring impossibility if he used something else to get him into space, like the booster they used for the Strike Rouge. The Freedom simply can't get up there on it's own. It is a mobile suit designed for war. ZAFT designed it to destroy enemy mobile suits, not to make trips back and forth between Earth and space. All of its functions were geared towards combat speed, maneuverability, and heavy cannon weaponry. If ZAFT wanted it back into space, they'd load it up into a mobile suit cargo container and fucking launch it up there with a mass accelerator.
That would be under normal circumstance. But since Lacus sometimes operate under irregular circumstance, who knows whatever upgrade she had made to it?
Quote:
It cannot latch onto the shuttle because it'd only prevent the shuttle from getting to space. If it didn't just kill the shuttle in the process.
I'm not concerned about whether or not he could latch on to the shuttle. From my perspective, Kira would've latched on to it immediately if he had intended to do it, but he didn't, so I don't think that was ever his plan, even if he could.
Quote:
If it could do so on its own, they would've had Kira take Lacus up there safe and sound without risking her life stealing a ZAFT shuttle from Durandal's own Lacus impersonator. Storywise they could've shut down the same argument they had between the Freedom and the shuttle--that much won't really change. The Archangel's crew would have done what it could to keep Lacus safe, you KNOW that.
The thing is, Cagalli would have to stay on Earth to focus on Orb, which means the Archangel has to stay. Lacus is on a separate mission. The other thing is that Lacus wants Kira to stay to protect the Archangel. So I don't think Kira taking Lacus to space and leaving the Archangel would ever be part of her plan.
Quote:
That means if the Freedom could achieve escape velocity and escape Earth's gravitational pull, IT IS A MASSIVE INCONSISTENCY IN THE STORY.
See my response above.
Quote:
Stop trying to deny the reality of the situation just because someone pointed out that Destiny was flawed in its depiction of the scene. This is beneath you and it's beneath us and it's a fucking disappointment that you'd go this low.
I am not trying to deny the reality of the situation. I'm just telling you how I see the situation based on what the show tells us.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:47   Link #9316
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Obviously Kira was planning on landing, stealing a shuttle of his own, and following them.
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:52   Link #9317
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The Freedom might've been upgraded in the interim between SEED and Destiny? If it had, monster, it would've been fucking mentioned. So no. It wasn't.

The Archangel is more capable of protecting itself for a few days now than it had been in SEED, as it could submerge itself and from there wrecked any sea-going or air-going vessel using missiles and railgun fire. As it was also upgraded for underwater travel, it was likely armed with torpedoes for such an event. As such it is capable of protecting itself from ZAFT forces, as only the EA had any heavy-duty underwater use mobile suits. And furthermore, NOTHING WAS HUNTING IT AT THE TIME. If they needed to take the Freedom into space for a few days for a human cargo delivery, they could've just had it stay low underwater for a while.

Lacus wasn't concerned with the Archangel being attacked in the interim. She was concerned with the Archangel not having the Freedom for an extended period of time while Kira was busy protecting her. There is a difference. And again, if Kira, once he had Lacus in space, argued to let him stay to protect her, she would've just sent his ass packing back down to the Archangel.

So it is. A big. INCONSISTENCY. If the Freedom was capable of getting into space under its own power. You are arguing that it could, and thus arguing that a huge inconsistency presented by the show is the "right", when you yourself have stated you'd be against such a thing. So either you are blinding yourself to the reality, or you are lying.

Which is it?
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Old 2013-09-21, 23:59   Link #9318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Actually, I just don't even think about the external factors. At the end of the day, it's about your suspension of disbelief. That's why I like that there's not much info on CE technology. It makes it easier for me to accept whatever crazy idea they could think of. Freedom being able to catch up to a speeding shuttle? Fine by me.
I probably wouldn't have nearly so much of an issue with all the scientific failures that ooze from this show like a foul and engorged wound were it billed differently. Were it billed from the get-go as a Super Robot show like G Gundam, Getter Robo, or Raideen, I could throw my SOD out the window. But a Real Robot? Yeesh. Even I have my limits.

Quote:
I never got around to watching Gurren.
I am saddened. It's so completely over the top that it does a stack overflow from utterly crazy into mind screwingly awesome.
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Old 2013-09-22, 00:19   Link #9319
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Obviously Kira was planning on landing, stealing a shuttle of his own, and following them.
Is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The Freedom might've been upgraded in the interim between SEED and Destiny? If it had, monster, it would've been fucking mentioned. So no. It wasn't.
Like they mentioned that the Archangel was upgraded? They didn't, but they just act on the fact that it was upgraded.

The same thing here. Kira just acted on the fact that he could follow Lacus with the Freedom and showed how he was able to catch up to the shuttle and kept up with it easily.

The implication is there. Not everything has to be specifically stated, Rising, remember?
Quote:
Lacus wasn't concerned with the Archangel being attacked in the interim. She was concerned with the Archangel not having the Freedom for an extended period of time while Kira was busy protecting her. There is a difference. And again, if Kira, once he had Lacus in space, argued to let him stay to protect her, she would've just sent his ass packing back down to the Archangel.

So it is. A big. INCONSISTENCY.
I don't think Lacus ever intended for Kira to leave the Archangel at all. Kira went out on his own because he was worried about Lacus. That's why Andrew was saying Kira should be satisfied that he was even able to come that far with them.

Also, the other reason why Kira was able to stay with the Archangel is because Andrew promised him that he would protect Lacus. If Kira had gone alone with Lacus, Andrew wouldn't have been with her.

So there is no inconsistency. Even if the Freedom could take her, Lacus would still go with Andrew on a shuttle.
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I probably wouldn't have nearly so much of an issue with all the scientific failures that ooze from this show like a foul and engorged wound were it billed differently. Were it billed from the get-go as a Super Robot show like G Gundam, Getter Robo, or Raideen, I could throw my SOD out the window. But a Real Robot? Yeesh. Even I have my limits.


I am saddened. It's so completely over the top that it does a stack overflow from utterly crazy into mind screwingly awesome.
Sure, I understand that expectation.
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Old 2013-09-22, 00:26   Link #9320
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Fuck this. I'm sick and tired of this crap you're constantly pulling, monster. You get such a fucking bug up your ass whenever someone says even the tiniest bit negative about SEED.
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