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Old 2013-09-22, 01:21   Link #9321
The American Average
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no no keep talking this is fun to read.

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Old 2013-09-22, 01:28   Link #9322
Kuroi Hadou
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You know, you could actually participate and make contributions so there's more fun to read "important stuff" instead of making comments from the peanut gallery.
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Old 2013-09-22, 01:28   Link #9323
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i could but then someone would attack me because i'm bringing peanuts into the game.
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Old 2013-09-22, 01:31   Link #9324
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There's no game if there's no-one playing against anyone.
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Old 2013-09-22, 02:51   Link #9325
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Fuck this. I'm sick and tired of this crap you're constantly pulling, monster. You get such a fucking bug up your ass whenever someone says even the tiniest bit negative about SEED.
aren't you the exact opposite though? You're arguing just as vehemently about the opposite end of the coin. So you have no right to put Monster down like that.

There is no actual information stating conclusively one way or the other. So saying it's impossible is just conjecture on your part. Fact is the Freedom is using technology hundreds of years more advanced than anything that we have right now meaning we can't judge it by today's standards. A few hundred years ago people thought it was impossible to go into space or get to the moon but now it is a regular thing. It's not possible for us to understand and the creators aren't rocket scientists. This is just an anime after all. Kira backed off and stopped following because that was what Lacus wanted. Whether The Freedom can or cannot is irrelevant after that.
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:01   Link #9326
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
So, regardless of how bad you think the math/science is, there is only one in-story conclusion: That Kira would've been able to take the Freedom to space had Lacus agreed.
You know monster, if Freedom is indeed can go to space on its own, wouldn’t that made the “dramatic escape from ORB” event in SEED somewhat ridiculous? It would rid one of the major urgency of that event (namely: the ZGMF Gundams have to hurry to hitchhike the already-launching Kusanagi or they won’t be able to go to space at all). If those two Gundams can go on their own, why all the fuss? They can casually fly behind Kusanagi and provide support rear-fire. But, nooo ...they show us how Kira/Freedom desperately reaching for Athrun/Justice while still grabbing the Kusanagi like their lives depends on it .

So, again, if Freedom (and to some extend, Justice) can go to space on its own, that “panic aspect” of ORB escape event shouldn’t happen, but it did. Then the writer in Destiny messed-up by making Freedom look like possessing space-rocket ability (assuming you chose to believe it) considering no amount of inner-upgrade can make a thin humanoid MS go to space in CE (you have to attach appropriate boosters like already shown by Strike Rouge). Hell, if you wanna go extreme-crazy in CE-verse, look no further than Astray mangas. Yet, no MS in Astray can go to space on its own without additional boosters or other ouside equipments which Freedom clearly didn’t have in that shuttle scene in Destiny. So, no matter what you believe (whether or not Freedom can go on its own), it is bad writing on both ends on Destiny’s part.

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No, the Freedom obviously meets whatever requirement the writers want it to.
I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Hell, the only mobile suits that can do that in the entire Gundam franchise I think would be the Turn A Gundam, 00 Qan[T], and Sakibure, and they can only do that by teleporting!
There's one more, Rising: Wing Gundam. In the final episodes of Gundam Wing, Lady Une woke up from coma and directly took the damn thing from a hangar on earth and flew it straight to space to help her beloved Treize Kushrenada in Tallgeese II. Yes, Lady Une is a Gundam pilot!
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2013-09-22 at 03:27. Reason: using better words
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:25   Link #9327
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The strike rouge is an older model with an inferior and limited power source. The battle of Orb was a dangerous situation though. They were being chased and if just they were left behind after making sure that the ships got away would've been dangerous since they would have the enemy forces focused on them alone. To get the thrust and adjustments needed while being attacked from all sides would've been impossible.
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:29   Link #9328
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That could be debated Obelisk as we never see the Wing Gundam launch. We only get Lady Une's big damn heroes moment saving Treize. While there is an implication, it can't be 100% proven.

As for the current debate.

I have a question concerning the Freedoms fuel capacity. In Seed it traveled from the Plants to Joshua Alaska nonstop without refueling. At least that's my impression anyway. Though it does raise the question of how far away the Plants truly are from Earth. Because if they're far enough say the distance from the Earth to the moon. Than unless Kira/Freedom refueled along the way and we just didn't see it for the sake of dramatics. Than fuel supply wouldn't be an issue I'd think. Or at least as big of one anyway.
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:34   Link #9329
monster
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
You know monster, if Freedom is indeed can go to space on its own, wouldn’t that made the “dramatic escape from ORB” event in SEED totally ridiculous? It would rid the major urgency of that event (namely: the ZGMF Gundams have to hurry to hitchhike the already-launching Kusanagi or they won’t be able to go to space at all). If those two Gundams can go on their own, why all the fuss? They can casually fly behind Kusanagi and provide support rear-fire. But, nooo ...they show us how Kira/Freedom desperately reaching for Athrun/Justice while still grabbing the Kusanagi like their lives depends on it .

So, again, if Freedom (and to some extend, Justice) can go to space on its own, that “panic aspect” of ORB escape event shouldn’t happen, but it did. Then the writer in Destiny messed-up by making Freedom look like possessing space-rocket ability (assuming you chose to believe it) considering no amount of inner-upgrade can make a thin humanoid MS go to space in CE (you have to attach appropriate boosters like already shown by Strike Rouge). Hell, if you wanna go extreme-crazy in CE-verse, look no further than Astray mangas. Yet, no MS in Astray can go to space on its own without additional boosters or other ouside equipments which Freedom clearly didn’t have in that shuttle scene in Destiny. So, no matter what you believe (whether or not Freedom can go on its own), it is bad writing on both ends on Destiny’s part.
Well, if they can mess with Mu's death, this is nothing by comparison.

That said, as I said before, just because the Freedom (and Justice) can do it, doesn't mean they have to. If the Freedom and Justice can get a free ride from a mass driver-accelerated Kusanagi, then why not? And as shown, they can then focus on firing back at the Biological CPUs chasing them.

Of course, the other possibility is an upgrade. And as far as them messing up in the technology department as compared to the real world, I have no problem with people choosing to interpret it that way. But the implication in the story still stands, though, that Kira intended to follow Lacus with the Freedom to space. No amount of real-world science is going to change that.
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:37   Link #9330
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
That could be debated Obelisk as we never see the Wing Gundam launch. We only get Lady Une's big damn heroes moment saving Treize. While there is an implication, it can't be 100% proven.

As for the current debate.

I have a question concerning the Freedoms fuel capacity. In Seed it traveled from the Plants to Joshua Alaska nonstop without refueling. At least that's my impression anyway. Though it does raise the question of how far away the Plants truly are from Earth. Because if they're far enough say the distance from the Earth to the moon. Than unless Kira/Freedom refueled along the way and we just didn't see it for the sake of dramatics. Than fuel supply wouldn't be an issue I'd think. Or at least as big of one anyway.
All the systems are run off the nuclear reactor. So energy isn't an issue.
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:42   Link #9331
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
The strike rouge is an older model with an inferior and limited power source. The battle of Orb was a dangerous situation though. They were being chased and if just they were left behind after making sure that the ships got away would've been dangerous since they would have the enemy forces focused on them alone. To get the thrust and adjustments needed while being attacked from all sides would've been impossible.
(Assuming those two can go to space on their own) they can just engage to trio a bit and finally do the blast shot to the ocean’s surface like they did in the anime, then follow the Kusanagi closely since the trio won’t be able to keep up with the ZGMF’s Gundams’s flying speed anyway. No big deal.

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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
That could be debated Obelisk as we never see the Wing Gundam launch. We only get Lady Une's big damn heroes moment saving Treize. While there is an implication, it can't be 100% proven.
Let's take it like this: Wing is still standing on the hangar by the time Lady awoke. Then it was gone in, like, no time at all (Lady pretty much stole it). So, are you saying a relatively sick (or fatigue at least) person like her have the superhuman ability to prepare a shuttle we've never seen, then put Wing in it, then arrange the launch on her own, then break out from the shuttle in time to protect Treize from the blast in that very limited time? Compared to that, directly taking Wing into space is much believable since the Gundams in that series are super-powered anyway.

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But the implication in the story still stands, though, that Kira intended to follow Lacus with the Freedom to space. No amount of real-world science is going to change that.
I'm not even talking about real-world science. I just took all the limitation created in CE's own universe before that shuttle event (and after, in the case of some Astray mangas) into consideration, and the result is still bad writing no matter what you chose to believe regarding Freedom's "space-rocket" ability .
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:53   Link #9332
monster
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I'm not even talking about real-world science. I just took all the limitation created in CE's own universe before that shuttle event (and after, in the case of some Astray mangas) into consideration, and the result is still bad writing no matter what you chose to believe regarding Freedom's "space-rocket" ability .
There's really no conclusive limitation that we can gather from the Kusanagi launch in SEED, as I've explained above. And there has never been any other instance where a nuclear-powered mobile suit needed to go to space on its own power. As for the Astray series, they are subservient to the anime series.
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:53   Link #9333
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All the systems are run off the nuclear reactor. So energy isn't an issue.
Hmm, energy and fuel are usually two separate things. Meaning how exactly do the Freedoms thrusters convert said energy into thrust exactly? Because as far as I'm aware it was never made clear. That and RD and everyone else is talking as if said thrusters are just like todays jet/rocket engines only better.

@obelisk I know just pointing out that there is a modicum of doubt in play as to how Wing got into space. And while they where super powered, they could still be damaged/destroyed.
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Old 2013-09-22, 03:59   Link #9334
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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There's really no conclusive limitation that we can gather from the Kusanagi launch in SEED, as I've explained above. And there has never been any other instance where a nuclear-powered mobile suit needed to go to space on its own power. As for the Astray series, they are subservient to the anime series.
Isn’t it something when all the crazy technologies in Astray can be topped by Destiny’s bad writing? And yes, Mu’s still living is crap-writing, I guess we all agree about that.
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Old 2013-09-22, 10:30   Link #9335
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Let's take it like this: Wing is still standing on the hangar by the time Lady awoke. Then it was gone in, like, no time at all (Lady pretty much stole it). So, are you saying a relatively sick (or fatigue at least) person like her have the superhuman ability to prepare a shuttle we've never seen, then put Wing in it, then arrange the launch on her own, then break out from the shuttle in time to protect Treize from the blast in that very limited time? Compared to that, directly taking Wing into space is much believable since the Gundams in that series are super-powered anyway.
It had been refitted with space boosters to get it into space. The techs working on it even wonder why Trieze had them do that, when all the Gundam pilots now had better Gundams, Trieze didn't want to use it and nobody else around was qualified to pilot a machine of that caliber.
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Old 2013-09-22, 11:57   Link #9336
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Hmm, energy and fuel are usually two separate things. Meaning how exactly do the Freedoms thrusters convert said energy into thrust exactly? Because as far as I'm aware it was never made clear. That and RD and everyone else is talking as if said thrusters are just like todays jet/rocket engines only better.

@obelisk I know just pointing out that there is a modicum of doubt in play as to how Wing got into space. And while they where super powered, they could still be damaged/destroyed.
i agree with this part. They are technology hundreds of years more advanced than anything we have today. We simply can't measure it in comparison with today's standards.
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Old 2013-09-22, 15:32   Link #9337
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aren't you the exact opposite though? You're arguing just as vehemently about the opposite end of the coin. So you have no right to put Monster down like that.

There is no actual information stating conclusively one way or the other. So saying it's impossible is just conjecture on your part. Fact is the Freedom is using technology hundreds of years more advanced than anything that we have right now meaning we can't judge it by today's standards. A few hundred years ago people thought it was impossible to go into space or get to the moon but now it is a regular thing. It's not possible for us to understand and the creators aren't rocket scientists. This is just an anime after all. Kira backed off and stopped following because that was what Lacus wanted. Whether The Freedom can or cannot is irrelevant after that.
No, because the difference between me and monster is that I can freely admit that there's problems in shows that I like. And for all of its problems, I like Gundam SEED. I like Gundam SEED Destiny. But I know that SEED and Destiny had problems. Problems with its depiction, problems with its narrative, and problems with its lore.

monster is pretty much completely incapable of seeing bad in SEED. All of his actions point to him vehemently believing that there is not a single thing wrong with SEED, that every little detail was just as planned and that the whole damn show was flawless.

And the thing is, he pretty much makes any reasonable debate about SEED impossible if someone says something negative about it or points out a flaw or inconsistency. God forbid SEED isn't less than perfect!
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Old 2013-09-22, 16:11   Link #9338
monster
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No, because the difference between me and monster is that I can freely admit that there's problems in shows that I like.
That's beside the point. I gave you reasons why I don't agree with some of your interpretations of the show, but you seem to take it as an insult that someone would not have the same opinion as you.

The bottom line is this: Just because the show has problems doesn't negate what it is showing us. Ex: That the Freedom going to space on its own may be unrealistic (which obviously is a problem for certain members of the audience) doesn't mean that it can't. You can say that this makes the show flawed, but you can't outright dismiss it if it is part of the show, whether specifically shown or implied.

So, please, just stop trying to make this into an argument on whether Destiny is flawed or not. I'm only interested in discussing what happens in the show.
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Old 2013-09-22, 16:27   Link #9339
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You didn't give reasons. You ignored what was presented to you. "Well maybe Lacus upgraded it". Some fucking reason.
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Old 2013-09-22, 16:32   Link #9340
monster
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You didn't give reasons. You ignored what was presented to you. "Well maybe Lacus upgraded it". Some fucking reason.
Which is a possibility I brought up based on the fact that the Freedom seemed to have this "new" ability.

At least my "reason" is still based on what we see on the show. What's your reason to dismiss it? That it doesn't conform to real-life science?
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