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Old 2013-10-01, 21:54   Link #501
Darthtabby
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Wait, what? Who is this nebulous "we" who knows that he wasn't honest about his desire to defend his home? Sorry, but I don't know where this comes from, because to me that was a crucial scene of Alto admitting to himself (and Klan) that he wanted to defend his home all along, but since he was so hung up about hating it (due to the limited sky, feeling stuck, etc), he couldn't admit this to himself and subliminated his desire to protect Frontier onto Ranka.
Yes, and I think we can both agree he wasn't being honest about his desire to protect his home prior to that scene in twenty three, don't you?

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Michael's and Yasaburo's remarks get under his skin because he is angry that they are reading him so wrong. An important scene which proves this is when he and Temzin (that Kwamzin clone from Gallia IV) fight each other and Temzin taunts him about war being in the blood of the Zentradi. This induces flashbacks from Alto to his prior conversation with Yasaburo, with Alto finally declaring "An actor's blood, my ass. I don't give a shit about that." This is not the reaction of someone who is running away from his past, but from someone who is defying the expectations of others to comform to what they perceive him to be.
The scene with Kamazin (sp?) is a good counter argument, but his reactions in the scene with Yasaburo still seem to suggest Yasaburo might have a point. The storming off was an overly dramatic reaction that did little to help his case. And its worth noting the way the wind went out of Alto's sails completely as soon as Yasaburo told Alto he had essentially proved his (Yasaburo's) point.

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Alto is angry about other people stuffing him into a box, a box he doesn't want to be in. Yes, him admitting to himself that his past as a Kabuki actor also has value is part of his character arc, but that is not a particular "running away" motivation, it is a motivation to be his own man, to be free of the constraints of expectation from his family and friends. And this combines with the other great motivation of the character, to be a protector.

Yasarubo calls this Alto wearing a "hero's mask", but it is a misconception from Yasaburo, coming from his own limited viewpoint as an actor. We never see Alto pretending to be a hero (well, there's that one scene where he lies to Ranka about whom defeated that diseased Hydra, but I think that is not a scene of Alto claiming credit for his own glory, but rather about him trying to protect Ranka from that weirdo with the armblades), we never see him being arrogant about his own heroics. Alto simply nuts up as soon as he hears that he can contribute to protecting Frontier, only that he disguises that desire to himself under the cover of protecting Ranka.
Yasaburo may be wrong in trying to force Alto to go back to Kabuki, but does necessarily make everything he says wrong?

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If there is any "running away" going on with Alto, it is from his own real desires, because of his inner hang-up about Frontier. But that is not what Yasaburo or Michael are talking about. And many people who think about Alto's character only see his pretty-boy features, his Kabuki past and his behaviour with the girls and then take Yasaburo and Michael at their words and dismiss Alto as another wishy-washy harem lead. Nothing could be farther from the truth and it is a shame that a subtle and intelligent character arc like his just passes under the radar for so many people. He is my favorite male Macross character (even edging out Max, which is a feat) and I wish more people had actually understood him.
I see three things Alto is running away from: his Kabuki past (and acting in general to a degree), dealing with Ranka and Sheryl's feelings for him, and admitting his real reasons for wanting to protect his home.
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Old 2013-10-02, 02:06   Link #502
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Yes, and I think we can both agree he wasn't being honest about his desire to protect his home prior to that scene in twenty three, don't you?
Okay, I may have misread your sentence there yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
The scene with Kamazin (sp?) is a good counter argument, but his reactions in the scene with Yasaburo still seem to suggest Yasaburo might have a point. The storming off was an overly dramatic reaction that did little to help his case. And its worth noting the way the wind went out of Alto's sails completely as soon as Yasaburo told Alto he had essentially proved his (Yasaburo's) point.
Sorry, not buying it. Alto has issues with his family. But those issues are with them trying to stuff him into a box which fits their expectations, not with him either being only an actor who wears a mask (Yasaburo) or somebody who never finishes anything he starts (Michael).


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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Yasaburo may be wrong in trying to force Alto to go back to Kabuki, but does necessarily make everything he says wrong?
Yes, yes it does.

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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I see three things Alto is running away from: his Kabuki past (and acting in general to a degree), dealing with Ranka and Sheryl's feelings for him, and admitting his real reasons for wanting to protect his home.
Now you are interpreting every character motivation of his, be it defiance against the expectations of others, be it trying to not hurt either of the girls and be it subliminating the desire to protect Frontier as "running away". Sure, I can twist every character motivation to comform to a certain theme I want to prove, too, but that doesn't make it correct. Of the three, only the last could really be construed as "running away", and that isn't one of the things he ever gets called out on by either Yasaburo nor Michael nor anybody else!

The point I was making a few posts ago was that the blogger did not get Alto at all and just swallowed Yasaburo's and Michael's arguments hook, line and sinker. I think I have proven quite extensively that they were wrong in their assertions. Yes, Alto has issues and you can always construe that as someone "running away" from some inner truth. But they are not the issues he gets called out on by others in the series, which is significant, since it shows that people were vastly misreading him even in-universe. The general out-of-universe view of the character just seemed to follow the same misconceptions as those other characters in-universe had (Michael notably changed his opinion later on, although he still misread Alto somewhat in regards to the two girls).
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Old 2013-10-02, 03:12   Link #503
wisteria233
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Wait, what? Who is this nebulous "we" who knows that he wasn't honest about his desire to defend his home? Sorry, but I don't know where this comes from, because to me that was a crucial scene of Alto admitting to himself (and Klan) that he wanted to defend his home all along, but since he was so hung up about hating it (due to the limited sky, feeling stuck, etc), he couldn't admit this to himself and subliminated his desire to protect Frontier onto Ranka.
Alto wanted to defend Frontier but didn't want to admit it to himself, so he ran to find an excuse to join SMS to protect his home. That excuse ended up being Ranka, who he barely took seriously. Isn't finding excuses and not wanting to admit the truth to yourself the same as running away?

Quote:
Michael's and Yasaburo's remarks get under his skin because he is angry that they are reading him so wrong. An important scene which proves this is when he and Temzin (that Kwamzin clone from Gallia IV) fight each other and Temzin taunts him about war being in the blood of the Zentradi. This induces flashbacks from Alto to his prior conversation with Yasaburo, with Alto finally declaring "An actor's blood, my ass. I don't give a shit about that." This is not the reaction of someone who is running away from his past, but from someone who is defying the expectations of others to comform to what they perceive him to be.
Yasaburo was wrong in saying that Alto ran away from Kabuki and wanted to return, but he wasn't wrong in saying that it was ingrained in him. He is right about Alto wearing a Hero's mask, because of the roles that he mentally assigned to Ranka and himself. Alto wanted to run away from that fact. He didn't want to confront his past. With Michael, he was calling Alto out on a lot of things, not just leaving acting. Michael essentially was pissed off that Alto ignored the world around him, which Alto admits to.


Quote:
Alto is angry about other people stuffing him into a box, a box he doesn't want to be in. Yes, him admitting to himself that his past as a Kabuki actor also has value is part of his character arc, but that is not a particular "running away" motivation, it is a motivation to be his own man, to be free of the constraints of expectation from his family and friends. And this combines with the other great motivation of the character, to be a protector.

Yasarubo calls this Alto wearing a "hero's mask", but it is a misconception from Yasaburo, coming from his own limited viewpoint as an actor. We never see Alto pretending to be a hero (well, there's that one scene where he lies to Ranka about whom defeated that diseased Hydra, but I think that is not a scene of Alto claiming credit for his own glory, but rather about him trying to protect Ranka from that weirdo with the armblades), we never see him being arrogant about his own heroics. Alto simply nuts up as soon as he hears that he can contribute to protecting Frontier, only that he disguises that desire to himself under the cover of protecting Ranka.
Which is funny because by not confronting the truth about himself (essentially running away from it) Alto is the one who ends up putting himself in a box. His role of Ranka's Hero was a fake role that he is unsuited for but nevertheless is one that he used as an excuse to protect his homeland, in other words a hero's mask. Again isn't not wanting to admit the truth to yourself the same thing as running away?

Alto's "Hero mask" is really is desire to protect Ranka. In reality while Alto does care about her, she's merely an excuse for him. In his mind he's assigned her of the role as the perpetual damsel in distress (a role that she plays excellently) but the whole thing falls apart the moment he tries to become her hero. Alto is actually never able to save Ranka, when Ranka is saved its always someone else's doing, which he takes the credit for. Which isn't something that he isn't too proud of, because its just like saying that he's failing to properly play the role of Ranka's hero. A fake role which acts as a place holder for what Alto really wants to do. Another way of looking at it, is that Yasaburo wasn't calling Alto's desire to protect Frontier fake (since at the time Alto did not consider himself Frontier's protector) Yasaburo was calling Alto's role as Ranka's protector a fake. In fact the story acknowledges that Alto is no longer wearing that mask, when Alto is able to admit to himself that he is really fighting to protect Frontier.



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If there is any "running away" going on with Alto, it is from his own real desires, because of his inner hang-up about Frontier. But that is not what Yasaburo or Michael are talking about. And many people who think about Alto's character only see his pretty-boy features, his Kabuki past and his behaviour with the girls and then take Yasaburo and Michael at their words and dismiss Alto as another wishy-washy harem lead. Nothing could be farther from the truth and it is a shame that a subtle and intelligent character arc like his just passes under the radar for so many people. He is my favorite male Macross character (even edging out Max, which is a feat) and I wish more people had actually understood him.
Alto was also running away from dealing with his own feelings towards the girls, as well as their feelings towards him. With Ranka he had pigeonholed her into the role of the perpetual damsel in distress, who couldn't do anything for herself. As a result he never takes her seriously, and even ends up lying to her making her believe that Alto really is her protector, when he isn't. With Sheryl she never fit into a clean role for him, and in a way I think that she may have confused and even at times scared him, she's important to him but he doesn't know why, and certainly isn't about to ponder about his own feelings to come up with an answer.
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Old 2013-10-02, 09:21   Link #504
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Alto wanted to defend Frontier but didn't want to admit it to himself, so he ran to find an excuse to join SMS to protect his home. That excuse ended up being Ranka, who he barely took seriously. Isn't finding excuses and not wanting to admit the truth to yourself the same as running away?
I already said that I misread Tabby's post in that part. I continue to disagree that "running away" is the correct term to describe Alto's avoidance of his real motivation in that regard.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Yasaburo was wrong in saying that Alto ran away from Kabuki and wanted to return, but he wasn't wrong in saying that it was ingrained in him. He is right about Alto wearing a Hero's mask, because of the roles that he mentally assigned to Ranka and himself. Alto wanted to run away from that fact. He didn't want to confront his past. With Michael, he was calling Alto out on a lot of things, not just leaving acting. Michael essentially was pissed off that Alto ignored the world around him, which Alto admits to.
Sure, kabuki still is a part of Alto's past, but not one he wants to return to. I disagree that Alto is wearing a "hero's mask" in any shape or form, because Alto is a hero, by every measure that we can apply to the term. Alto deceives himself on his motivation for fighting, but that is not remotely what Yasaburo was talking about, he rather was putting in question Alto's entire motivation in regards to participating in the war.

Where does Alto admit to ignoring the world around him? Please quote.

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Which is funny because by not confronting the truth about himself (essentially running away from it) Alto is the one who ends up putting himself in a box. His role of Ranka's Hero was a fake role that he is unsuited for but nevertheless is one that he used as an excuse to protect his homeland, in other words a hero's mask. Again isn't not wanting to admit the truth to yourself the same thing as running away?
Nope.

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Alto's "Hero mask" is really is desire to protect Ranka. In reality while Alto does care about her, she's merely an excuse for him. In his mind he's assigned her of the role as the perpetual damsel in distress (a role that she plays excellently) but the whole thing falls apart the moment he tries to become her hero. Alto is actually never able to save Ranka, when Ranka is saved its always someone else's doing, which he takes the credit for. Which isn't something that he isn't too proud of, because its just like saying that he's failing to properly play the role of Ranka's hero. A fake role which acts as a place holder for what Alto really wants to do. Another way of looking at it, is that Yasaburo wasn't calling Alto's desire to protect Frontier fake (since at the time Alto did not consider himself Frontier's protector) Yasaburo was calling Alto's role as Ranka's protector a fake. In fact the story acknowledges that Alto is no longer wearing that mask, when Alto is able to admit to himself that he is really fighting to protect Frontier.
Yeah, but Yasaburo did not know this. So he can't be taken seriously as a source.

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Alto was also running away from dealing with his own feelings towards the girls, as well as their feelings towards him. With Ranka he had pigeonholed her into the role of the perpetual damsel in distress, who couldn't do anything for herself. As a result he never takes her seriously, and even ends up lying to her making her believe that Alto really is her protector, when he isn't. With Sheryl she never fit into a clean role for him, and in a way I think that she may have confused and even at times scared him, she's important to him but he doesn't know why, and certainly isn't about to ponder about his own feelings to come up with an answer.
My read on Alto's interactions with the girls is different. It is pretty clear to me that he took notice of their feelings really in the episodes on Gallia IV. What happened afterwards may be a topic of debate, but in my reading what he was desperately trying was to avoid hurting one of the girls. Not the best solution, in my opinion, but it came from good intent.

I'd really appreciate if you guys would stop going through every permutation of what the character did and try to assign the label "running away" to it. There's a place for that term, but not with every action which involves avoidance of something problematic.
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Old 2013-10-02, 12:58   Link #505
wisteria233
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I already said that I misread Tabby's post in that part. I continue to disagree that "running away" is the correct term to describe Alto's avoidance of his real motivation in that regard.
Again trying to avoid something, or being in denial about something is the same thing as running away. Running away is what you do when you want to avoid something.


Quote:
Sure, kabuki still is a part of Alto's past, but not one he wants to return to. I disagree that Alto is wearing a "hero's mask" in any shape or form, because Alto is a hero, by every measure that we can apply to the term. Alto deceives himself on his motivation for fighting, but that is not remotely what Yasaburo was talking about, he rather was putting in question Alto's entire motivation in regards to participating in the war.
So you're essentially saying that Alto's desire to protect Ranka, was sincere?

Quote:
Where does Alto admit to ignoring the world around him? Please quote.
Episode 23.

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Nope.
Then what do you call a fake role? What do you call someone who pretends to be something that they're not? Alto's role of Ranka's self appointed protector was a fake role that he assigned for himself. What Alto really wanted to protect was Frontier, that is his true role, however Alto pretends that it isn't. In other words a mask.


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Yeah, but Yasaburo did not know this. So he can't be taken seriously as a source.
And yet his words still had an impact on Alto, which they wouldn't have been able to if they were completely wrong, but the simple fact that Alto is affected by his words means that he was on to something. There are times when people are right but have no idea about why. It is incorrect to group Alto desire to protect with his self appointed role as Ranka's protector, merely because Alto never truly becomes Frontier's hero until 18, before then it is a subconscious thought, that Alto is in complete denial of. So if someone told Alto that it wasn't Frontier he wanted to protect at this time, Alto would agree with them, in fact this is the reason why Ranka was used as an excuse. Yasaburo and Michael are not just speaking in character, they are also representing the narrative. And in the beginning Alto's self appointed role as Ranka's protector, her hero was fake. It was an insincere role, that Alto used to an excuse because he was in denial about his true reasons, it is not until Alto gives up the fake role, does the narrative say that Alto is being sincere.

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My read on Alto's interactions with the girls is different. It is pretty clear to me that he took notice of their feelings really in the episodes on Gallia IV. What happened afterwards may be a topic of debate, but in my reading what he was desperately trying was to avoid hurting one of the girls. Not the best solution, in my opinion, but it came from good intent.
Alto did not take Ranka seriously case in point when Ranka went to Alto for advice about accepting the role of Frontier's songstress of hope, Alto wasn't really paying attention to her, he wasn't listening, and instead used stock advice, which in this case was colossally bad advice to give. He also never sets Ranka straight admitting, never admitting that it was Brera who saved her. He notices that she likes him, but he doesn't want to deal with it.

With Sheryl it is not until he is faced with the idea that he will lose her, or is losing her, does he begin to react.

Quote:
I'd really appreciate if you guys would stop going through every permutation of what the character did and try to assign the label "running away" to it. There's a place for that term, but not with every action which involves avoidance of something problematic.
By definition to run away means to avoid, to elude, or to evade. You are essentially using the synonyms for running away and you don't want anyone to use one specific term but its synonyms are okay. That doesn't make much sense.

To run away means to avoid.
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Old 2013-10-02, 12:59   Link #506
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Old 2013-10-02, 14:50   Link #507
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Has it reignited?

Say it ain't so.

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Nah, this is just some weird attempt to get me to admit that Alto was always running away. Which is not going to happen, because it's wrong and an extreme distortion of his character arc. Also totally not what I was complaining about in regards to that bloggers very flawed character analysis, but I guess it's a topic which can be won easier, because you can always distort any conflict without a resolution as one side "running away". Very annoying, though.
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Old 2013-10-02, 15:24   Link #508
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Again trying to avoid something, or being in denial about something is the same thing as running away. Running away is what you do when you want to avoid something.
Maybe for you, but for me it is not a description which always applies. In fact, for me it very much does not apply to cases where you want to stand on your own but are pressured by others into conforming to their expectations. Which is what mostly happens to Alto in the series.

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So you're essentially saying that Alto's desire to protect Ranka, was sincere?
I said that Alto is a hero by the measure of his actual deeds. So Yasaburo prattling about "hero's masks" is dead wrong. His desire to protect Ranka may have been a mask to disguise his desire to defend Frontier from himself, but Yasaburo has no idea about those nuances, which makes his whole opinion wrong on the fundamental level of starting from a completely flawed premise.

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Episode 23.
Please be more precise, I really don't feel the need to comb through that whole episode to find the passage you are referring to.

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Then what do you call a fake role? What do you call someone who pretends to be something that they're not? Alto's role of Ranka's self appointed protector was a fake role that he assigned for himself. What Alto really wanted to protect was Frontier, that is his true role, however Alto pretends that it isn't. In other words a mask.
I am referring to your attempt to pin the "running away" label on Alto, not the mask thing. I am also against that entire denomination, because it implies that Yasaburo's wrongheaded premise is a fact, but at least it has some validity in Altos actual behaviour to it, although in a completely different manner than Yasaburo meant it to be.

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And yet his words still had an impact on Alto, which they wouldn't have been able to if they were completely wrong, but the simple fact that Alto is affected by his words means that he was on to something. There are times when people are right but have no idea about why. It is incorrect to group Alto desire to protect with his self appointed role as Ranka's protector, merely because Alto never truly becomes Frontier's hero until 18, before then it is a subconscious thought, that Alto is in complete denial of. So if someone told Alto that it wasn't Frontier he wanted to protect at this time, Alto would agree with them, in fact this is the reason why Ranka was used as an excuse. Yasaburo and Michael are not just speaking in character, they are also representing the narrative. And in the beginning Alto's self appointed role as Ranka's protector, her hero was fake. It was an insincere role, that Alto used to an excuse because he was in denial about his true reasons, it is not until Alto gives up the fake role, does the narrative say that Alto is being sincere.
I am sorry, but I regard all this metatextual stuff as utter bullshit. Give me actual text over that every time.

Yeah, Alto was affected by Yasaburo coming and trying to get him to drop all what he had built up as his own life, to return to the safe box of being under his fathers thumb. That is what the shows us explicitly, which it without a doubt tells us, when Alto finally gets over his issue of feeling constrained by tradition to heed his fathers wishes, on Gallia IV. Alto asserts his own desires and freedom in that moment, and what I saw in the earlier confrontation with Yasaburo was just him getting upset at his problems with his family, which led him in the past to leave behind his entire past and that Yasaburo was not getting it.

Alto is a traditional kind of guy in many senses. Keeping his haircut, keeping that amulet... there are other examples. As such he is affected by someone from his family coming talking to him, even if he deeply disagrees with their wishes.

And when I am talking about Altos heroism, I am not talking about him becoming "Frontiers Hero" at some point, I am talking about his very actions of leaping to the defense of persons. Be it now Ranka as more of a cover (although still sincere in his desire to protect her) or the nameless millions of people living on Frontier. That is heroism as we define it, not only the extraordinary deeds he did throughout which won him some fame later on.

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Alto did not take Ranka seriously case in point when Ranka went to Alto for advice about accepting the role of Frontier's songstress of hope, Alto wasn't really paying attention to her, he wasn't listening, and instead used stock advice, which in this case was colossally bad advice to give. He also never sets Ranka straight admitting, never admitting that it was Brera who saved her. He notices that she likes him, but he doesn't want to deal with it.

With Sheryl it is not until he is faced with the idea that he will lose her, or is losing her, does he begin to react.
Wrong on both accounts. With Ranka, he got a direct notice of her feelings on Gallia IV during their "excursion, later adventure" together, starting with her arrival on the planet to save him and the others.

His notice of Sheryl true feelings was earlier in that same episode, as she was desperately trying to get out of bed to give him his present and sing for the Zentradi.

As for how he treated with Ranka later on in that advice session... well, that was about the place where I said that their ship crashed, so I agree partially in your assessment. I disagree that it was stock advice, but it was advice which did not take into account her feelings but only what he himself would do in her place. The quality of advice also depends on what the person who receives it makes of it. Alto did not take the process of decision making away from Ranka (actually, "Do as you like" is one of the phrases he often used with her). So, I do disagree on that part, too.

I continue to believe that his refusal to clear up where the girls stood with him was rather because he did not want to hurt one, not because he couldn't decide for himself. If that was smart behaviour is another question, though.

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By definition to run away means to avoid, to elude, or to evade. You are essentially using the synonyms for running away and you don't want anyone to use one specific term but its synonyms are okay. That doesn't make much sense.

To run away means to avoid.
No, "running away" is a quite specific manner of refusing to deal with problems. Avoiding subjects can be a much more delicate process, because it can mean that you internally have dealt with the manner already, but since bringing up the topic / resolving it can cause more dire problems, you avoid it for the time being.

Example: Ranka is running away from her responsibility to Frontier, by abandoning the fleet and going on a suicide mission with Brera. She simply hopes that her problems will go away by making this grand gesture, without much of a plan of the consequences.

Counterexample: Alto avoids dealing with the two girls feelings for most of the show, because he fears that choosing one over the other may hurt the non-chosen girl deeply. I think it is clear that he already has chosen Sheryl quite early after Gallia IV (at the latest at episode 17, with the awkward bedroom conversation with Ranka), so he also has to take into account how a deeply hurt Ranka could affect Frontiers chances of survival. That may be reading a bit much into it, but it would make sense from a view of logical progression of thought. Hence, his (for the most part) avoidance of the topic (until Ranka removes herself from the equation) is not "running away", but rather "smart avoidance".

The problem here is that you want to apply the "running away" label to all issues of avoidance, and that is just wrong. Also, this has quite mutated from what originally was a question if Yasaburo's and Michael were reading Alto correctly.
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Old 2013-10-02, 18:02   Link #509
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lol what have I have got you guys into

Anyway, what Darth and wisteria said would be my replies, along with understanding your POV but disagreeing with it.

As for the first line, yes, yes he is. As far as Frontier goes, Alto has gotten a hell of a lot more hate than the others. I noticed that during the run of the show he was mostly ignored or brought up with regards to the girls, and the same is true now, but add to the batch people who put him in the generic dense harem lead box, or would rather pair up the girls etc. The way people hate Alto just gets under my skin. It might be the loud minority but what I have read over the last year-year and a half wasn't nice. There are people who just don't like him or hate him, and there are those who use him as the scapegoat to blame everything on. Mostly shippers. Ranka hate has died down, from what I can tell. Youtube maybe? IDK, I don't hang around there at all.

I think he is very interesting, I am not sorry for my opinion and you might find it surprising but your own passion for defending him over the years also added a lot to how much I love the character today, not that I ever disliked him.
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Old 2013-10-02, 18:08   Link #510
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Thanks for the gentle reply to what were quite intense criticisms from me. I remain skeptical about the Alto hate, but then again I don't follow Frontier fandom outside of this board at all, anymore. So maybe I have missed recent developments.

I am quite sure that my arguments on TV series Alto are well thought-out and that I am right. That doesn't mean that I really am, but so far nobody has managed to bring up better arguments. Movie Alto is another character in many regards, one which I do not regard as nearly as fondly than the original version, but outside of Ranka, that is the case with every character there.
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Old 2013-10-02, 23:15   Link #511
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These arguments always seem to take off while I'm away at work.

For the record, I do not think that running away/avoiding was Alto's motivation for everything. But I do believe that it was a significant factor in his decision making in the series.

I've actually struggled quite a bit with interpreting that scene involving Yasaburo in Episode 11. Alto's responses really do feel a bit like he's playing a cliched "rebellious boy who ran away to become a pilot" role. Question is, why? Does he just figure its the easiest way to get out of the situation? Is he instinctively prone to act? Perhaps he's been playing that part for a while already because its a role that gave him a chance to pursue the sky he loves so much?
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Old 2013-10-03, 01:57   Link #512
magnuskn
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These arguments always seem to take off while I'm away at work.

For the record, I do not think that running away/avoiding was Alto's motivation for everything. But I do believe that it was a significant factor in his decision making in the series.
I disagree, for reasons laid out in excruciating detail in the posts of the last days.

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I've actually struggled quite a bit with interpreting that scene involving Yasaburo in Episode 11. Alto's responses really do feel a bit like he's playing a cliched "rebellious boy who ran away to become a pilot" role. Question is, why? Does he just figure its the easiest way to get out of the situation? Is he instinctively prone to act? Perhaps he's been playing that part for a while already because its a role that gave him a chance to pursue the sky he loves so much?
Or maybe it is easy to fall back into bad habits with people you knew well in the past and had a different type of relationship with than with the people you are currently spending your time with. Yasaburo pushes a lot of Alto's buttons, due to their past interactions.
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Old 2013-10-04, 08:20   Link #513
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Maybe for you, but for me it is not a description which always applies. In fact, for me it very much does not apply to cases where you want to stand on your own but are pressured by others into conforming to their expectations. Which is what mostly happens to Alto in the series.
Actually it does, the term run away isn't necessarily a negative term. It is mostly used negatively but the term in and of itself isn't anymore negative than saying that you avoided something.
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I said that Alto is a hero by the measure of his actual deeds. So Yasaburo prattling about "hero's masks" is dead wrong. His desire to protect Ranka may have been a mask to disguise his desire to defend Frontier from himself, but Yasaburo has no idea about those nuances, which makes his whole opinion wrong on the fundamental level of starting from a completely flawed premise.
What deeds?Alto was an absolute failure at protecting Ranka. Every time she got into danger it was someone else to saved her and Alto was just around when she woke up to take the credit. This is a fact that he seems to be uncomfortable with. The only person that you can say that Alto genuinely saved (with help from Brera) was Luca and Sheryl. A person doesn't have to know the nuances behind another's life to make a valid point.

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Please be more precise, I really don't feel the need to comb through that whole episode to find the passage you are referring to.
Neither to I.

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I am referring to your attempt to pin the "running away" label on Alto, not the mask thing. I am also against that entire denomination, because it implies that Yasaburo's wrongheaded premise is a fact, but at least it has some validity in Altos actual behaviour to it, although in a completely different manner than Yasaburo meant it to be.
To avoid, or evade something means to run away, its a synonym. Even though Yasaburo may have meant it in a different manner, it doesn't erase the validity of his words.

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I am sorry, but I regard all this metatextual stuff as utter bullshit. Give me actual text over that every time.

Yeah, Alto was affected by Yasaburo coming and trying to get him to drop all what he had built up as his own life, to return to the safe box of being under his fathers thumb. That is what the shows us explicitly, which it without a doubt tells us, when Alto finally gets over his issue of feeling constrained by tradition to heed his fathers wishes, on Gallia IV. Alto asserts his own desires and freedom in that moment, and what I saw in the earlier confrontation with Yasaburo was just him getting upset at his problems with his family, which led him in the past to leave behind his entire past and that Yasaburo was not getting it.

Alto is a traditional kind of guy in many senses. Keeping his haircut, keeping that amulet... there are other examples. As such he is affected by someone from his family coming talking to him, even if he deeply disagrees with their wishes.

And when I am talking about Altos heroism, I am not talking about him becoming "Frontiers Hero" at some point, I am talking about his very actions of leaping to the defense of persons. Be it now Ranka as more of a cover (although still sincere in his desire to protect her) or the nameless millions of people living on Frontier. That is heroism as we define it, not only the extraordinary deeds he did throughout which won him some fame later on.
Now whose being metatextual? When was it ever outright said that Alto only keeps his hair long and his charm, because he is a traditional guy? Obviously you came up with that reasoning yourself.

And yet Alto never actually confronts his father about it, instead he (putting it in your words) "avoids it". And one must wonder if Alto's attitude was necessary because it seems as though Alto's father was understanding of Alto's desire to leave the stage. What you saw, was your interpretation of what was going on. It should be known that Alto never actually tries to make himself be heard, he never confronts his family, he never talks back to Yasaburo. Even if it makes you upset it is better to confront your problems rather than putting it off for another day, like Alto tends to do.

Leaping into danger to save another person doesn't make you a hero, it makes you reckless. In fact the narrative calls Alto out on it multiple times. And again Alto was never really Ranka's hero, she may have thought that he was because he lied to her, but he wasn't. Ranka's hero was Brera.


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Wrong on both accounts. With Ranka, he got a direct notice of her feelings on Gallia IV during their "excursion, later adventure" together, starting with her arrival on the planet to save him and the others.
Of course Alto knew that Ranka's liked him, but that's not what I'm talking about. I was referring to her intuition about the Vajra, and her debating the becoming Frontier's songstress of hope. Ranka asked Alto for advice for what to do on both fronts but Alto didn't pay a lick of attention to what she was saying, and instead gave her stock phrases of encouragement. The same scene essentially happens in SnT, except this time Alto is actually paying attention to what she is saying. TV series Alto had mentally pigeon holed Ranka into a role, which she frankly never grew out of.

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His notice of Sheryl true feelings was earlier in that same episode, as she was desperately trying to get out of bed to give him his present and sing for the Zentradi.
Again not what I'm talking about, I was speaking about Alto's feelings towards Sheryl, not Sheryl's feelings towards Alto. I was speaking about his reaction to Sheryl, during the Galia IV Alto was not faced with the prospect of losing her, he thought that she was just sick.

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As for how he treated with Ranka later on in that advice session... well, that was about the place where I said that their ship crashed, so I agree partially in your assessment. I disagree that it was stock advice, but it was advice which did not take into account her feelings but only what he himself would do in her place. The quality of advice also depends on what the person who receives it makes of it. Alto did not take the process of decision making away from Ranka (actually, "Do as you like" is one of the phrases he often used with her). So, I do disagree on that part, too.
Which is something never really does. Alto never really takes Ranka's feelings into account, if he did then he would have come clean with her about the fact that he has never saved her instead of just allowing her to fall into some variation of hero worship. If he did then he would have made an effort to distance himself from her in that area. This actually goes both ways as Ranka doesn't take Alto's feelings into account either. It wasn't a ship that sunk its a ship that never left port and was then dismantled.

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I continue to believe that his refusal to clear up where the girls stood with him was rather because he did not want to hurt one, not because he couldn't decide for himself. If that was smart behaviour is another question, though.
Again not what I was talking about.

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No, "running away" is a quite specific manner of refusing to deal with problems. Avoiding subjects can be a much more delicate process, because it can mean that you internally have dealt with the manner already, but since bringing up the topic / resolving it can cause more dire problems, you avoid it for the time being.

Example: Ranka is running away from her responsibility to Frontier, by abandoning the fleet and going on a suicide mission with Brera. She simply hopes that her problems will go away by making this grand gesture, without much of a plan of the consequences.

Counterexample: Alto avoids dealing with the two girls feelings for most of the show, because he fears that choosing one over the other may hurt the non-chosen girl deeply. I think it is clear that he already has chosen Sheryl quite early after Gallia IV (at the latest at episode 17, with the awkward bedroom conversation with Ranka), so he also has to take into account how a deeply hurt Ranka could affect Frontiers chances of survival. That may be reading a bit much into it, but it would make sense from a view of logical progression of thought. Hence, his (for the most part) avoidance of the topic (until Ranka removes herself from the equation) is not "running away", but rather "smart avoidance".

The problem here is that you want to apply the "running away" label to all issues of avoidance, and that is just wrong. Also, this has quite mutated from what originally was a question if Yasaburo's and Michael were reading Alto correctly.
Actually it isn't, the term that you are using is the definition of run away

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run away-
verb to get free from a dangerous or confining situation

Related Words avoid, elude, evade

Merriam Webster's Dictionary
You could just as easily say Ranka wanted to avoid the responsibilities of her position. The term to run away does essentially mean to avoid.

And the only difference in your examples are what the characters are running away from.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Thanks for the gentle reply to what were quite intense criticisms from me. I remain skeptical about the Alto hate, but then again I don't follow Frontier fandom outside of this board at all, anymore. So maybe I have missed recent developments.

I am quite sure that my arguments on TV series Alto are well thought-out and that I am right. That doesn't mean that I really am, but so far nobody has managed to bring up better arguments. Movie Alto is another character in many regards, one which I do not regard as nearly as fondly than the original version, but outside of Ranka, that is the case with every character there.
Well there is a lot of hate for him at tumblr, at least for tv series Alto. Though most of the hate really does stem from the fact that his character arc in the tv series is unfinished, and this is because Alto never really got a whole lot of screen time in the tv series, Sheryl is in a similar boat but in her case enough of her character came through to make her memorable.

The movies didn't just focus more on Sheryl, they also focused more on Alto and so viewers were able to better see his character arc, which enabled people to appreciate the character.
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Old 2013-10-04, 10:06   Link #514
magnuskn
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Actually it does, the term run away isn't necessarily a negative term. It is mostly used negatively but the term in and of itself isn't anymore negative than saying that you avoided something.
Yes, it is generally a negative term, because it implies cowardice.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
What deeds?Alto was an absolute failure at protecting Ranka. Every time she got into danger it was someone else to saved her and Alto was just around when she woke up to take the credit. This is a fact that he seems to be uncomfortable with. The only person that you can say that Alto genuinely saved (with help from Brera) was Luca and Sheryl. A person doesn't have to know the nuances behind another's life to make a valid point.
You are outright lying here. Alto was several times about to save Ranka when Brera interferred and was just a tad faster. Often in the presence of Ranka. Alto "taking credit" for saving Ranka happened exactly once and not in the glory-hound way your phrasing implies.

How exactly did Brera help with saving Luca and Sheryl when Alto returned from Gallia IV? Please don't make things up.

Yasaburo did not only not know the nuances of Alto's life, he had exactly zero ideas of what exactly Alto had been doing lately, aside from being a pilot and fighting. There is, again, no factual basis to your claims.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Neither to I.
That's generally not how presenting evidence works.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
To avoid, or evade something means to run away, its a synonym. Even though Yasaburo may have meant it in a different manner, it doesn't erase the validity of his words.
No, it is not a synonym. It is a specific form of avoidance. Not every instance of avoiding something is running away, while every form of running away is avoidance.

And Yasaburo's entire premise was false, which makes the rest of his arguments meaningless.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Now whose being metatextual? When was it ever outright said that Alto only keeps his hair long and his charm, because he is a traditional guy? Obviously you came up with that reasoning yourself.
It actually came up in discussions here in the past and not from me. Admittedly, it is not from the show.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
And yet Alto never actually confronts his father about it, instead he (putting it in your words) "avoids it". And one must wonder if Alto's attitude was necessary because it seems as though Alto's father was understanding of Alto's desire to leave the stage. What you saw, was your interpretation of what was going on. It should be known that Alto never actually tries to make himself be heard, he never confronts his family, he never talks back to Yasaburo. Even if it makes you upset it is better to confront your problems rather than putting it off for another day, like Alto tends to do.
Unless you know that you cannot convince your father that what you are doing is the right thing for you, because you know that he will not understand. It basically took Ranzo until episode 25 to get what Alto was doing (while Yasaburo looked confused as ever).

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Leaping into danger to save another person doesn't make you a hero, it makes you reckless.
Actually, "leaping into danger to save another person" is about the textbook definition of heroism.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
In fact the narrative calls Alto out on it multiple times.
True.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
And again Alto was never really Ranka's hero, she may have thought that he was because he lied to her, but he wasn't. Ranka's hero was Brera.
Lol, no. He lied to her one single time and was her hero long before that. He actually did save her in the second episode of the series and in the third one, too (unless you think getting sucked into vacuum (twice) is not something to be saved from). That Brera later on replaced him in that role is besides the point.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Of course Alto knew that Ranka's liked him, but that's not what I'm talking about. I was referring to her intuition about the Vajra, and her debating the becoming Frontier's songstress of hope. Ranka asked Alto for advice for what to do on both fronts but Alto didn't pay a lick of attention to what she was saying, and instead gave her stock phrases of encouragement. The same scene essentially happens in SnT, except this time Alto is actually paying attention to what she is saying. TV series Alto had mentally pigeon holed Ranka into a role, which she frankly never grew out of.
Uh, no. What actually happened is that Ranka asked him advice on her singing for Frontier. She never told him about her weird experiences with the Vajra, including the Vajra queen manifesting a human image and singing to her. Please keep your facts straight.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Again not what I'm talking about, I was speaking about Alto's feelings towards Sheryl, not Sheryl's feelings towards Alto. I was speaking about his reaction to Sheryl, during the Galia IV Alto was not faced with the prospect of losing her, he thought that she was just sick.
You are only applying his reaction to when he actively began to try to be with Sheryl. My point is that he took notice of the two girls feelings (or better said, that the girls actually were serious about having feelings for him) in that episode and, in my reading, he actively tried to not choose so as to not hurt the other girl. Until events forced his hand, so to say.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Which is something never really does. Alto never really takes Ranka's feelings into account, if he did then he would have come clean with her about the fact that he has never saved her instead of just allowing her to fall into some variation of hero worship. If he did then he would have made an effort to distance himself from her in that area. This actually goes both ways as Ranka doesn't take Alto's feelings into account either. It wasn't a ship that sunk its a ship that never left port and was then dismantled.
I'll happily concede that Alto was guilty of making bad decisions, but I say that his process of decision-making came from a good place, instead of just "running away", like you seem him want to have done. Also, as said above, he did save Ranka several times early in the series.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Actually it isn't, the term that you are using is the definition of run away
Nope. As explained at the start of this post.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
You could just as easily say Ranka wanted to avoid the responsibilities of her position. The term to run away does essentially mean to avoid.
It is a form of avoidance, but avoidance is not always running away.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
And the only difference in your examples are what the characters are running away from.
Not my fault if you can't separate the two terms.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well there is a lot of hate for him at tumblr, at least for tv series Alto. Though most of the hate really does stem from the fact that his character arc in the tv series is unfinished, and this is because Alto never really got a whole lot of screen time in the tv series, Sheryl is in a similar boat but in her case enough of her character came through to make her memorable.

The movies didn't just focus more on Sheryl, they also focused more on Alto and so viewers were able to better see his character arc, which enabled people to appreciate the character.
Alto had a great character arc in the series, people just didn't see it. As I said, it was subtle characterization.
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Old 2013-10-04, 17:44   Link #515
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Yes, it is generally a negative term, because it implies cowardice.
And avoiding something isn't cowardice?


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You are outright lying here. Alto was several times about to save Ranka when Brera interferred and was just a tad faster. Often in the presence of Ranka. Alto "taking credit" for saving Ranka happened exactly once and not in the glory-hound way your phrasing implies.
Your memory is off, because Ranka was in danger exactly three times over the course of the series four if you count the ending.

Episode 1 in episode one it was realy Gilliam who saved her not Alto, and Alto himself ending up needing to be saved by Ozma.

Episode 11 it was Brera who saved both her and Alto.

Episode 14 Again Brera.

Episode 25 Alto was able to save her but only because of Sheryl's help.

Out of all these times Alto only comes clean about not being the one who ultimately saved Ranka once, and that was because Gilliam died to do it. Alto tries to save Ranka because he considers himself her protector, however he has never been the one actually protecting her. And don't even try saying that he was close to saving Ranka in any of those situations, because in each and everyone of those situations Alto was in over his head. Episode 1, the Vajra would have killed him; episode 11 the hydra was about to kill him, and episode 14 he saw the Vajra and became so enraged that he fired his missiles at it point blank and easily could have almost killed Ranka himself if Brera didn't outfly the explosion. Then again in episode 25 he probably would have gone ahead and killed Ranka(purposefully) this time if it wasn't for Sheryl's interference.

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How exactly did Brera help with saving Luca and Sheryl when Alto returned from
Gallia IV? Please don't make things up.
I'm being unfair, it wasn't just Brera who helped him out this time but also Sheryl and Ranka, or did you forget that Alto was incapacitated? The only person who Alto has legimately saved on his own is Sheryl.

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Yasaburo did not only not know the nuances of Alto's life, he had exactly zero ideas of what exactly Alto had been doing lately, aside from being a pilot and fighting. There is, again, no factual basis to your claims.
Again a person doesn't have to know every nitty gritty detail of another person's life to make a valid point. And again the fact that Alto was effected by Yasaburo's words meant that, he made a valid point whether he knew it or not.
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That's generally not how presenting evidence works.
Well that's too bad I don't feel like searching through everything again to find it.

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No, it is not a synonym. It is a specific form of avoidance. Not every instance of avoiding something is running away, while every form of running away is avoidance.
Then which definition of avoid do you mean, because the description your using is a synonym for running away.
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And Yasaburo's entire premise was false, which makes the rest of his arguments meaningless.
And yet Alto is still effected by his words. Tell me if someone says something to you and its completely wrong would you care about their words? would it even effect you?

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It actually came up in discussions here in the past and not from me. Admittedly, it is not from the show.
Then how can you call me out on interpretation when your doing so yourself?

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Unless you know that you cannot convince your father that what you are doing is the right thing for you, because you know that he will not understand. It basically took Ranzo until episode 25 to get what Alto was doing (while Yasaburo looked confused as ever).
And again when was it ever shown that Alto made an honest effort to get his father to understand? For all we know Alto's father may have already accepted Alto's choice long before episode 25, but Alto just never had the guts to talk to him about it. The same thing with his brother Yasaburo, Alto never once tries to explain his side, at all. And as far as Yasaburo is concerned all he sees is the boy he considers his brother denying a part of himself, and essentially running away from/avoiding his family, to join a mercenary group, which is dedicated to the protection of their home, which Alto has made perfectly clear that he hates.

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Actually, "leaping into danger to save another person" is about the textbook definition of heroism.
Its also the definition for recklessness.

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Lol, no. He lied to her one single time and was her hero long before that. He actually did save her in the second episode of the series and in the third one, too (unless you think getting sucked into vacuum (twice) is not something to be saved from). That Brera later on replaced him in that role is besides the point.
Um... he lies to her three times. Once in episode one, though he eventually comes clean about it, also Ranka outright states that she was in no danger with the vacuum because she's part Zentradi in episode 2 Its really Sheryl and Alto in danger in episode 3. The second time in episode 11 when he carries her back to camp and Ranka exclaims how Alto saved her, and Alto doesn't answer her, and the third time in episode 15 on the elevator when she's jumping up and down with no underwear exclaiming how he saved her, he never tells her the truth.

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Uh, no. What actually happened is that Ranka asked him advice on her singing for Frontier. She never told him about her weird experiences with the Vajra, including the Vajra queen manifesting a human image and singing to her. Please keep your facts straight.
From the way that she was talking it was kind of obvious, about what she was implying that there was more to story. However, Alto doesn't pay attention and so pushes her to come clean.

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You are only applying his reaction to when he actively began to try to be with Sheryl. My point is that he took notice of the two girls feelings (or better said, that the girls actually were serious about having feelings for him) in that episode and, in my reading, he actively tried to not choose so as to not hurt the other girl. Until events forced his hand, so to say.
Again I'm not talking about the girls feelings for Alto, I'm talking about Alto's feelings for the girls, and what they meant to him. Ranka for Alto was an convient excuse who fit perfectly into the role of the damsel in distress, for his fabricated role of her hero. Though he cares for Ranka he never thinks about her outside of her role and never really gets to know her as a person. For Sheryl, she never quite fit into a role, he's far too attracted to her for her to be just a friend, she's too easy to talk to for her to be just an acquittance. Its not until the chance of losing her becomes real that he stops trying to put her into a role.

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I'll happily concede that Alto was guilty of making bad decisions, but I say that his process of decision-making came from a good place, instead of just "running away", like you seem him want to have done. Also, as said above, he did save Ranka several times early in the series.
Not all of them. Alto's using Ranka as an excuse to join SMS was a bad decision that came from his own denial. Ditto for his complete an utter refusal to acknowledge his past as an actor, and his refusal to meet with his father.


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It is a form of avoidance, but avoidance is not always running away.
Except in the two examples that you posted.

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Alto had a great character arc in the series, people just didn't see it. As I said, it was subtle characterization.
Perhaps too subtle, which again isn't helped by the fact that he really needed more screen time, and also the fact that his character arc didn't end. We just weren't really allowed to spend a whole lot of time with him.
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Old 2013-10-05, 01:48   Link #516
magnuskn
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And avoiding something isn't cowardice?
Um, no? Avoiding something bad can actually be smart behaviour. In what kind of environment do you live that you cannot see that difference?

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Your memory is off, because Ranka was in danger exactly three times over the course of the series four if you count the ending.

Episode 1 in episode one it was realy Gilliam who saved her not Alto, and Alto himself ending up needing to be saved by Ozma.

Episode 11 it was Brera who saved both her and Alto.

Episode 14 Again Brera.

Episode 25 Alto was able to save her but only because of Sheryl's help.

Out of all these times Alto only comes clean about not being the one who ultimately saved Ranka once, and that was because Gilliam died to do it. Alto tries to save Ranka because he considers himself her protector, however he has never been the one actually protecting her. And don't even try saying that he was close to saving Ranka in any of those situations, because in each and everyone of those situations Alto was in over his head. Episode 1, the Vajra would have killed him; episode 11 the hydra was about to kill him, and episode 14 he saw the Vajra and became so enraged that he fired his missiles at it point blank and easily could have almost killed Ranka himself if Brera didn't outfly the explosion. Then again in episode 25 he probably would have gone ahead and killed Ranka(purposefully) this time if it wasn't for Sheryl's interference.
I guess if you don't count Alto jumping into cold space to save Ranka in episode two (where was Gilliam then, huh? Oh, yeah, dead) or him finding the manhole in episode three (where he simultanously saved Sheryl and Ranka), your count would be right. But, sorry, you are wrong. And I'd say that Brera saved Ranka in episode 14 was more of a pre-emption of Alto doing the same.

The only time Alto needed to "come clean" was in episode 10 and I already said that I think that at that point he was thinking about protecting her from that weirdo cyborg with the handblade. At that point nobody knew who Brera was, who revealed himself only as of episode 14.

And nice try to make it seem like he would have killed Ranka in episode 14. Pure fantasy, but okay.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I'm being unfair, it wasn't just Brera who helped him out this time but also Sheryl and Ranka, or did you forget that Alto was incapacitated? The only person who Alto has legimately saved on his own is Sheryl.
Also Ranka, but you are conveniently forgetting or ignoring those instances.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Again a person doesn't have to know every nitty gritty detail of another person's life to make a valid point. And again the fact that Alto was effected by Yasaburo's words meant that, he made a valid point whether he knew it or not.
You need to have an actual idea of what is happening to a person to make a decent point. And Alto was affected, but not in the way Yasaburo intended.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well that's too bad I don't feel like searching through everything again to find it.
So, point invalidated. Alright.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Then which definition of avoid do you mean, because the description your using is a synonym for running away.
No, it's not. And I really don't think this is going anywhere, since you seem to be unable to distinguish between smart avoidance and running away.

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And yet Alto is still effected by his words. Tell me if someone says something to you and its completely wrong would you care about their words? would it even effect you?
Maybe, depending on our past relationship. I would be upset if someone I had problems with in the past, yet who is also dear to me would chew me out, even if what he said was wrong. And I am not Alto, who also has the tendency of internalizing a lot of his problems, I would be much more prone to clear up the misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Then how can you call me out on interpretation when your doing so yourself?
Yeah, that was a mistake from me, I normally don't cite fanon as fact. Sorry.


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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
And again when was it ever shown that Alto made an honest effort to get his father to understand? For all we know Alto's father may have already accepted Alto's choice long before episode 25, but Alto just never had the guts to talk to him about it. The same thing with his brother Yasaburo, Alto never once tries to explain his side, at all. And as far as Yasaburo is concerned all he sees is the boy he considers his brother denying a part of himself, and essentially running away from/avoiding his family, to join a mercenary group, which is dedicated to the protection of their home, which Alto has made perfectly clear that he hates.
I admit that I am rather assuming a lot here, but Alto shows all signs of having had exensive rows with his family in the past. He ran away from home (yep, that was his instance of running away. Maybe that is the part everyone is harping about), he was disinherited by his father, his father ignores him, very deliberately, in episode four.

There simply exist family rows too deep to mend easily. Let's not forget that Alto's father also didn't seek out Alto to patch things up. You can of course try to assign "running away" to that, too, but it is not the term commonly used for deep family disfunction. Alto's father cannot accept Alto's decision, Alto cannot allow himself to submit to his father's desires. That seems to be the situation until episode 25, where Alto's father finally relents.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Its also the definition for recklessness.
Oh, definitely. But that makes those kind of actions nonetheless heroic.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Um... he lies to her three times. Once in episode one, though he eventually comes clean about it, also Ranka outright states that she was in no danger with the vacuum because she's part Zentradi in episode 2 Its really Sheryl and Alto in danger in episode 3. The second time in episode 11 when he carries her back to camp and Ranka exclaims how Alto saved her, and Alto doesn't answer her, and the third time in episode 15 on the elevator when she's jumping up and down with no underwear exclaiming how he saved her, he never tells her the truth.
What? You really think that Ranka was in no danger of the vacuum because she was one-quarter Zentraedi? Really? Really?!? You can't be serious, right? She didn't state that she was in "no danger", re-watch that scene. If you can be bothered to.

First off, that scene with Ranka telling Alto that he saved her was in episode two, secondly, he just had saved her from being sucked into outer space and you are being ridiculous if you think that Ranka would have been fine there for more than a few seconds. Third, in episode 15 Ranka should have well known who saved her, since she was concious throughout the whole last episode. If she thinks that Alto saved her, it is because he was part of the rescue mission and, hey, she saw him come in and clear the Vajra queens clock, so there's that. Although if you say that she lost her memory of that moment between episodes 14 and 15, I'd be fine with that, too, because it would support my fan theory why the hell she never told anyone about the Vajra queen singing to her. But that would be something Alto had no idea about and her thanking him for being there for her would seem natural, so no lying from him, either.

Man, you really don't remember a lot of the details, huh?

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
From the way that she was talking it was kind of obvious, about what she was implying that there was more to story. However, Alto doesn't pay attention and so pushes her to come clean.
Okay, I can buy that he was being a bit oblivious to her nuances. However, it is up to her to come clean with those incredibly pertinent facts which could affect the safety of the entire fleet. That isn't something you can put on Alto.

I'll be happy to put on him that he just went along with leaving that unknown alien organism called Ai-kun with her without asking more questions, though. :-/


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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Again I'm not talking about the girls feelings for Alto, I'm talking about Alto's feelings for the girls, and what they meant to him. Ranka for Alto was an convient excuse who fit perfectly into the role of the damsel in distress, for his fabricated role of her hero. Though he cares for Ranka he never thinks about her outside of her role and never really gets to know her as a person. For Sheryl, she never quite fit into a role, he's far too attracted to her for her to be just a friend, she's too easy to talk to for her to be just an acquittance. Its not until the chance of losing her becomes real that he stops trying to put her into a role.
Alright, those are very valid interpretations. How exactly does that relate to him "running away"?

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Not all of them. Alto's using Ranka as an excuse to join SMS was a bad decision that came from his own denial. Ditto for his complete an utter refusal to acknowledge his past as an actor, and his refusal to meet with his father.
Not really. His decision to use the excuse of "protecting Ranka" to join SMS just masked his decision as something which he could use to excuse to himself why he was suddenly protecting the place he purported to hate. He wanted to join SMS, anyway, so I am not seeing how that was a bad decision.

His refusal to give in with his father cannot be called a bad decision, since so far as I can see, his father wanted total submission to his demands. That is a place where you simply need to assert yourself as a young person, even if that means breaking off contact to your family. Making a clean break with your past, especially if crops up in places like episode 10, is also sometimes necessary, if you want to make something new for yourself.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Except in the two examples that you posted.
In your interpretation, which conflates "avoidance" with "running away" completely.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Perhaps too subtle, which again isn't helped by the fact that he really needed more screen time, and also the fact that his character arc didn't end. We just weren't really allowed to spend a whole lot of time with him.
Quite probable, given how he has fallen out of favor with fans very rapidly, while Sheryl was (Or maybe is? Nobody has posted updated charts in a long while) on the anime charts for favorite female character for years on end.

The end of his character arc actually was there, his problems with his family (actually Ranzo, but Yasaburo is nothing but an extension of Ranzo's will, after all) mended, his open sky there for him, his past accepted, his responsibility for Frontier, too. The only thing not allowed to be finalized was the romance aspect and I think it is pretty clear where that is heading.

If you want to talk about an unresolved character arc, look at Ranka. Oh, man, is that a regression of the character. :-/ But I think we all went over that quite a lot of times already.
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Old 2013-10-05, 16:39   Link #517
Swampstorm
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I love the word "vocation". Etymologically, it's similar to "voce" (voice). Literally, it's a "calling."

When Sheryl answers Alto's question about the reasons why people choose to sing or fly in episode 5, it's the same idea. Analyze all you want; you don't need a reason to love something. Sometimes, it just calls (sings) out to you.

When you're young, it's easy to let your parents define your world. Win their approval, or rebel against them. It's a binary choice. Either way, you're still trapped under in a sky with ceilings and walls. Run towards, or run away. Either way, you're still running.

Piloting is something that Alto genuinely wants to do. It's not to give up kabuki to spite his father. It's not to protect Ranka from the Vajra (nor does she want to protected from them).

There's a third option. Do neither. Be yourself. Justify nothing. The scene in which Alto sees his father in a wheelchair in episode 23 is an important one, in that he realizes that his dad is just a man. There was never a battle to be won between them. Alto flies because he wants to. He defends Frontier because he wants to. Piloting is his vocation, his calling. He flies, like Sheryl sings... because he was meant to.
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Old 2013-10-05, 17:52   Link #518
magnuskn
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Swampy!

I like your definition.
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