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Old 2013-10-12, 09:34   Link #31141
Roger Rambo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ View Post
I'm wondering (if they're not actually pulling it out of their ass, but probably are) how the Koch's figure the ACA would lower the US health standards as a whole when we're already behind other nations but spend more money...
Ideological narcissism.

Though really. All the budget related complaints about the ACA completely fall flat when you consider that the current setup is already ludicrously economically inefficient and expensive. Jon Stewart deals with this at the two minute mark.

Guess what. The uninsured still cost society money. You're not saving money by not giving medication to that uninsured person. You're just guaranteeing that eventually you'll succumb to something that warrants an ER visit, that will cost far more than giving him a few checkups and medication.



The problem with the Republican party is that their positions logically lead to social Darwinism, Where uninsured persons are denied ER visits*. It's just that they lack the testicular fortitude to actually go there.



*Of course I'm not sure that that would be a good setup even if you did have insurance. How do the ambulances/ER distinguish between the insured and uninsured? What if someone doesn't have health insurance information on them when they get injured out somewhere? And better hope that if you get mugged and stabbed that the mugger doesn't snatch your insurance paperwork.
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Old 2013-10-12, 11:50   Link #31142
SaintessHeart
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Deal to resolve fiscal crisis stalls in Congress

Quote:
(Reuters) - Hopes for a resolution of Washington's fiscal crisis in the next day or two faded on Capitol Hill on Saturday, as President Barack Obama's efforts to reach a deal with Republicans in the House of Representatives sputtered.

The focus has now shifted to Senate Republicans' ideas for reopening the government and raising the government's borrowing authority, which runs out on October 17.

"I guess they're (the White House) talking to the Senate now," a dejected House Appropriations Committee Chairman Harold Rogers, a Republican, told Reuters.

"There is no deal; no negotiations going on," House Speaker John Boehner told a meeting of House Republicans, according to Representative Richard Hudson.

The White House had expressed deep reservations with Boehner's plan for a debt ceiling increase that would have extended only to November 22 and other demands that would have required a series of negotiations to continue under the threat of default and government shutdown.

Meanwhile, there appeared to be growing interest in a plan written by Republican Senator Susan Collins that would fund government operations for another six months at their current level and extend Treasury Department borrowing authority through January 31.

Without action by Congress, the United States could be in default by Thursday, when the Treasury warns its borrowing authority would basically be exhausted.

Many House members were heading to their home districts, having been informed that there would be no votes later on Saturday, Sunday or before Monday evening.

The complication has deflated some of the optimism about a quick agreement coming as early as this weekend.

"I was optimistic yesterday morning," David French, the chief lobbyist for the National Retail Federation, told Reuters on Saturday. "I'm a little less optimistic today and so are folks I've talked to" on Capitol Hill.

Companies and trade associations have been stepping up their efforts on Capitol Hill as the debt ceiling deadline approaches.

Retailers are particularly concerned about going into a holiday season with debt ceiling jitters hanging over the economy.

Beyond that, French said: "They're concerned about Washington. They're concerned about the level of dysfunction. Our members do not like lurching from crisis to crisis without hope of a resolution."
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-12, 12:15   Link #31143
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Beyond that, French said: "They're concerned about Washington. They're concerned about the level of dysfunction. Our members do not like lurching from crisis to crisis without hope of a resolution."
Well it seems it is too bad for them, as the GOP appear to be hell-bent on generating crisis on a regular basis to keep themselves relevant.
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Old 2013-10-12, 12:31   Link #31144
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Well it seems it is too bad for them, as the GOP appear to be hell-bent on generating crisis on a regular basis to keep themselves relevant.
I was at work just now (knocked off) and a couple of my older colleagues were discussing about the possibility default. One of them said, "It would be an unholy alliance between the capitalists and conservatives to screw the teabag terrorists."

They placed a bet of $50 that there won't be a deal reached by 17th.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-12, 19:10   Link #31145
AnimeFan188
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David Byrne: 'The internet will suck all creative content out of the world':

"The boom in digital streaming may generate profits for record labels and free
content for consumers, but it spells disaster for today's artists across the creative
industries"

See:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/201...-content-world
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Old 2013-10-12, 19:15   Link #31146
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I was at work just now (knocked off) and a couple of my older colleagues were discussing about the possibility default. One of them said, "It would be an unholy alliance between the capitalists and conservatives to screw the teabag terrorists."

They placed a bet of $50 that there won't be a deal reached by 17th.
Hold on, hold on .. let me put my "know-it-all" hat on for a second.

Even if the debt ceiling doesn't reach a deal, there are ways for the U.S. to continue to pay its obligations which would avoid default. This issue would still result in significant damage to GDP and hurt any economic recovery as well as make everyone skeptical about the ability for the body politic to reach consensus on the looming problems ahead -- pensions, health care reform (further), tax code reform, etc.

So, things'll still spell trouble, but there isn't going to be any default.
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Old 2013-10-12, 19:39   Link #31147
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Hold on, hold on .. let me put my "know-it-all" hat on for a second.

Even if the debt ceiling doesn't reach a deal, there are ways for the U.S. to continue to pay its obligations which would avoid default. This issue would still result in significant damage to GDP and hurt any economic recovery as well as make everyone skeptical about the ability for the body politic to reach consensus on the looming problems ahead -- pensions, health care reform (further), tax code reform, etc.

So, things'll still spell trouble, but there isn't going to be any default.
The problem isn't some sudden explosive failure of Washington. The problem is if the GOP is serious about turning the hostage taking into the norm of day to day, it would mean we will have economic crisis every month for the next decade no matter who is running the country, unless by some miracle the laws changed.

Can USA avoid default indefinitely? Possibly. But what we now worry is a permanent malaise. That we will get political theatre on a monthly basis from now on until the US of A ceases to exist.
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Old 2013-10-12, 20:35   Link #31148
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The problem isn't some sudden explosive failure of Washington. The problem is if the GOP is serious about turning the hostage taking into the norm of day to day, it would mean we will have economic crisis every month for the next decade no matter who is running the country, unless by some miracle the laws changed.

Can USA avoid default indefinitely? Possibly. But what we now worry is a permanent malaise. That we will get political theatre on a monthly basis from now on until the US of A ceases to exist.
They took the argument to the Senate Republicans. I don't know if it will make a difference from the House of Representatives though.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-12, 21:54   Link #31149
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Congress lumbers while threatened default looms
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-12-19-34-08

US-Afghan officials near a deal on American troops
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-12-22-49-42
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Old 2013-10-13, 02:40   Link #31150
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The problem isn't some sudden explosive failure of Washington. The problem is if the GOP is serious about turning the hostage taking into the norm of day to day, it would mean we will have economic crisis every month for the next decade no matter who is running the country, unless by some miracle the laws changed.
Or if the GOP gets in power and the Dems are too spineless (or responsible, I guess) to use the same tactics. Which is its own problem: it would be, in effect, letting the terrorists win.
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Old 2013-10-13, 03:06   Link #31151
Ithekro
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There is the belief it is the Republicans (House) stopping thing and there is the belief the Democrats (Senate) are stopping things.

The belief of some conservatives is that it was the Senate that blocked the budget from passing, thus this is the Democrat's fault.

Others think we are getting close to an actual civil war where neighbor hates neighbor. Though I could point out that in the South, even today what is usually called the American Civil War is "The War of Northern Aggression" and it does not quialify as a civil war because it was not neighbor against neightbor, but a unified group forming a new country that was invaded by the United States. The contention is that that war does not fit the definition of a civil war and should not be called so because it is incorrect. And they are rather insistant about it.
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Old 2013-10-13, 03:16   Link #31152
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is the belief it is the Republicans (House) stopping thing and there is the belief the Democrats (Senate) are stopping things.

The belief of some conservatives is that it was the Senate that blocked the budget from passing, thus this is the Democrat's fault.

Others think we are getting close to an actual civil war where neighbor hates neighbor. Though I could point out that in the South, even today what is usually called the American Civil War is "The War of Northern Aggression" and it does not quialify as a civil war because it was not neighbor against neightbor, but a unified group forming a new country that was invaded by the United States. The contention is that that war does not fit the definition of a civil war and should not be called so because it is incorrect. And they are rather insistant about it.
"Belief' has nothing to do with reality. Reality is that Republicans started the shutdown, but because they are being burned for it, the Democrats see no reason to concede anything. It is either a clean bill or nothing.

Conservatives can believe whatever they want. The rest of us live in the real world.
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Old 2013-10-13, 03:32   Link #31153
Anh_Minh
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Conservatives vote in the real world, too...
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Old 2013-10-13, 03:37   Link #31154
Ithekro
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I am fairly sure they say the same but in reverse. That they live in the real world and the liberals are living in a fairy tale land. Thus the belief of a civil war brewing. Some conservatives hate liberals, considering it to be akin to a sickness that needs to be removed to heal the country.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-10-13 at 03:42. Reason: it is really late for me right now
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Old 2013-10-13, 03:51   Link #31155
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I am fairly sure they say the same but in reverse. That they live in the real world and the liberals are living in a fairy tale land. Thus the belief of a civil war brewing. Some conservatives hate liberals, considering it to be akin to a sickness that needs to be removed to heal the country.
Conservatives can believe all they want. No seriously. Because reality has a liberal bias.

"They say the opposite" is their choice. Doesn't change the facts.
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Old 2013-10-13, 03:56   Link #31156
Sumeragi
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Could we stop labelling fundamentalists as some representative of conservatives? It's like saying soviet communism is the representation of liberalism.
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Old 2013-10-13, 07:03   Link #31157
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Cyclone in India weakens; officials say few deaths
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-13-05-34-01

Reid: Soft-spoken, combative Obama partner vs GOP
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/reid-...partner-vs-gop
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Old 2013-10-13, 07:47   Link #31158
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Hold on, hold on .. let me put my "know-it-all" hat on for a second.

Even if the debt ceiling doesn't reach a deal, there are ways for the U.S. to continue to pay its obligations which would avoid default.
Even a Republican economist who held positions in the Reagan and GHW Bush Administrations and advised right-wing politicians like Jack Kemp and Ron Paul doesn't agree with you.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...s-out-of-cash/

Maybe you should try on his hat.
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Old 2013-10-13, 09:18   Link #31159
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The belief of some conservatives is that it was the Senate that blocked the budget from passing, thus this is the Democrat's fault.
Which is an entirely dishonest perspective if you look at the actual mechanics of the proceedings.

1. Majority of House votes to send a budget bill to the Senate. Bill includes provision to remove funding for law they don't like
2. Senate look at budget bill, don't like it completely, and votes to send an amended version back to the House
3. Republican House speaker Boehner pulls out a revolver and shoots the person who bringing the amended Senate bill in the head. Proceeds to barricade the House so no vote on the Senate's bill can take place


The Republicans are the ones who are deliberately throwing a wrench in the legislative process right before a major economic disaster. In fact, they did it right at that point as leverage to get what they wanted. Which makes it nonsensical to say this is the Democrats fault. Why would they start a shutdown over Obamacare? Obamacare is already law, and is already funded. The only way the Democrats can cause a shutdown to happen over the ACA is as a response to the Republicans actions. The Republicans are the only ones with an incentive to start this situation.


Acting like they're not the ones who started this is nothing but pure doublethink.
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Old 2013-10-13, 09:35   Link #31160
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Could we stop labelling fundamentalists as some representative of conservatives? It's like saying soviet communism is the representation of liberalism.
I will treat them separately as soon as they vote differently from one another, and not before.
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