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Old 2013-10-13, 05:24   Link #33121
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Interesting theory! I don't think I've heard that before.

What do you propose as Battler and Yasu's reason for choosing to re-enact the scenario? And in that theory, would the deaths of the other people on the island be a deliberate part of that re-enactment, and if so, why? And if not, why did the deaths happen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.

Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.
I just read the Ep 8 manga on Mangareader, and I didn't see anything. In fact, it's only up to the first half of the game(before Bern challenges Battler to her specially created game and makes Ange seek out the Book of Single Truth).

Is there another place where they're further along in the Ep 8 Manga?
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Old 2013-10-13, 06:10   Link #33122
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I think they're talking about the newest Japanese release. It's not been scanlated that far yet. And we're actually not allowed to talk about scanlations in here, IIRC.
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Old 2013-10-13, 10:47   Link #33123
Cao Ni Ma
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Its a Chinese raw.

Spoiler for EP8 Golden Truth:


And here's Erika as she begins her reasoning towards ep6s lock room

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-10-13, 14:41   Link #33124
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.
No idea if he'll make in time as the next chapter's title is "Toya Hachijo" so there's the chance we'll skip to Ange freeing herself, opening the book and then to Toya's meeting with Ikuko completely removing from the plot the battle Erika and Battler had in the visual novel about closed rooms in favour of Erika solving Shkanon and be done with it?

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.
Yup, I know I'm repeating myself but the changes in Ep 8 definitely improved the chapter. I wish some of them had been applied to Ep 7 as well instead Ep 7 isn't saying much more than the Visual novel did and I'm not really fond of how it handles the narrative of certain pieces of the story.
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Old 2013-10-14, 06:39   Link #33125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.
She says something along the lines of the problem she didn't understand was that it was never fixed how many names a person could hold, instead of names being fixed to a person. So she solves it by the rescuer "being Kanon and not being Kanon."

So yes, she basically solved Shkannon, though the person in that case is just given as person X in a raincoat who is being recognized by Battler as Kanon.

Quote:
Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.
That should be "This is the final game that I made for Ange..." in an answer to it's value and impact on everything that is being questioned by the goats. So it's basically him saying that which has become the highlight of the changes to EP8 in the manga, "This is all for Ange, so fuck it if it's true or not!"
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Old 2013-10-15, 03:35   Link #33126
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
She says something along the lines of the problem she didn't understand was that it was never fixed how many names a person could hold, instead of names being fixed to a person. So she solves it by the rescuer "being Kanon and not being Kanon."

So yes, she basically solved Shkannon, though the person in that case is just given as person X in a raincoat who is being recognized by Battler as Kanon.
So that's Erika's "Shkannon" Solution....Sorry Erika-Chan, Objection:

All People can only use their own Names

The term "All People" might be vague, it might be possible that "Shannon" is recognized as Kanon, but this isn't evidenced at any point up until the Shkannon theory. So we can use this rule to further prove it.

Knox's 1st: The Culprit must be someone who appeared early in the series.

These two Red truths mean that Yasu could not have existed within the Umineko timeframe. Even Ushiromiya Lion is more legitimate than Yasu(Opinion, but I think I can put it in the context of the Red Truth given the evidence I just prescribed)

Here's my Blue Truth surrounding Shakannon.

One of the 17 people on Rokkenjima simply don't exist. We could imply this to be Kanon(in the Shkannon theory). However, the "even if you join us" is crucial. Battler/Beatrice could've just simply said "There are 16 people on Rokkenjima" and be done with it, but yet they willingly included the "probability" of Erika joining. My theory(and I admit it's Known's theory as well) is that Erika never existed.

Actually, it's not even a theory. We're told outright that She doesn't count in either of the 4 games. That's a major hint right there to the solution.

Of course, her body may very well have washed ashore on Rokkenjima, but the only time anyone could've actually seen her. Was when the family docked off the boat(and we never see any evidence of any lying body ever.) Or. When the Cousins go out to the beach. Hell, you'd especially think Maria would recognize a dead body and she could say "Beatrice Exists" UUU~
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Old 2013-10-15, 09:45   Link #33127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
So that's Erika's "Shkannon" Solution....Sorry Erika-Chan, Objection:

All People can only use their own Names
Actually no. The Blue and Red Truth, as well as Erika's final deduction are these:

The person in the closet is somebody else who is not Kanon.
Everybody can only use their own name.
The Rescuer was Kanon.

You were rescued at a time when Kanon could not have escaped the guesthouse.
A physical body from the next room escaped through the window of the guesthouse ad then entered your room while claiming to be Kanon.
Then, after abandoning the name Kanon, that person hid in the closet and returned to their original self.
Of course everybody can only use their own names, but if "that someone" was also Kanon then there is no problem.

The Red Truth you used was using the body count as a manifesto while I was involuntarily using the name count.

So yes, manga Erika is a lot smarter than VN Erika

Quote:
Knox's 1st: The Culprit must be someone who appeared early in the series.
This is actually addressed in passing by mentioning several inspirations for both Yasu as a writer and Umineko itself.
You have to consider that even Yasu is just a construct for a young person who is so lost in fantasy that names have taken on a whole new meaning. Even "Yasu" is only a fraction of who that person is and is technically equal to Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice or Lion, they are all facets and possibilities of what s/he can become.

This is actually an often addressed problem in mystery writing when it comes to the question of how to use the rule of introducing a character.
Looking at several famous murder mysteries the culprit has always been more than just what was introduced about him or her in the beginning. It is not about introducing every facet of who a person is right from the start, that has to be part of the puzzle solving according to my taste, it is much more important to give the room to attribute the several ideas that were introduced throughout the story to one specific character who would be the culprit. In Umineko's case these are the stories about a witch that lives on the island constantly, her being a trapped existence, a promise with Battler, the talk of a hidden child, the Beatrice that Rosa met, they all have to fall into place.

Last edited by haguruma; 2013-10-15 at 09:55.
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Old 2013-10-15, 16:17   Link #33128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
So that's Erika's "Shkannon" Solution....Sorry Erika-Chan, Objection:

All People can only use their own Names
Well, the canon solution of Umineko doesn't go against this. It just says that a person owned multiple names. In fact all the names owned by the culprit are:
Lion Ushiromiya
Yasuda Sayo
Shannon
Yasu
Kanon
Yoshiya
Beatrice
and, if you want, Clair vauxof Bernard (though it's possible Yasu never used that name during her life and it's just name Bern gave her)

After all, even if you go for a solution different for ShKanon, no one would question that Shannon also own the name of Sayo and Kanon the name of Yoshiya.

So owning multiple names is okay.

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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Knox's 1st: The Culprit must be someone who appeared early in the series.
Uhm... maybe I've misunderstood you but Yasu showed up early in the series. Yasu's just Shannon's old nick and Shannon appeared early in the series. The fact many refer to her as Yasu is just because to make thing simpler 'Shannon' is the name used to refer to her maid persona.

If I'm not wrong though Ryukishi didn't even bother using the name 'Yasu' much in the interview, referring to her, more often than not as simply Shannon, even when he was explaining how she killed herself and George in Ep 2.
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Old 2013-10-15, 17:55   Link #33129
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Actually no. The Blue and Red Truth, as well as Erika's final deduction are these:

The person in the closet is somebody else who is not Kanon.
Everybody can only use their own name.
The Rescuer was Kanon.

You were rescued at a time when Kanon could not have escaped the guesthouse.
A physical body from the next room escaped through the window of the guesthouse ad then entered your room while claiming to be Kanon.
Then, after abandoning the name Kanon, that person hid in the closet and returned to their original self.
Of course everybody can only use their own names, but if "that someone" was also Kanon then there is no problem.

The Red Truth you used was using the body count as a manifesto while I was involuntarily using the name count.

So yes, manga Erika is a lot smarter than VN Erika
**Grunts at Erika's Red/Blue Statements.** She really did do a fantastic job of covering all corners for her Shkanon explanation. However, I still have Red Truths that Erika didn't defeat.

I raise an objection to Erika's theory that a "Person X made the claim that it was Kanon, and that it could make that claim even if Person X wasn't really Kanon."

They definitely wouldn't mistake any different person for Kanon!(Red Truth regarding Kanon's appearance in Ep2)

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
'
A different person cannot claim his name!

The Ep.2 Red Truth is especially painful to Erika's theory, it's not even possible to suppose a theory that Shannon dressed up as Kanon and it could be passed off.(Of course it couldn't, I mean look at Shannon's double D's. George would know if that shit's fake ).
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Old 2013-10-15, 18:04   Link #33130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
**Grunts at Erika's Red/Blue Statements.** She really did do a fantastic job of covering all corners for her Shkanon explanation. However, I still have Red Truths that Erika didn't defeat.

I raise an objection to Erika's theory that a "Person X made the claim that it was Kanon, and that it could make that claim even if Person X wasn't really Kanon."

They definitely wouldn't mistake any different person for Kanon!(Red Truth regarding Kanon's appearance in Ep2)

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
'
A different person cannot claim his name!

The Ep.2 Red Truth is especially painful to Erika's theory, it's not even possible to suppose a theory that Shannon dressed up as Kanon and it could be passed off.(Of course it couldn't, I mean look at Shannon's double D's. George would know if that shit's fake ).
None of this excludes the possibility, that someone completely unrelated to "the servant Kanon", coincidently has "Kanon" as a 2nd name.
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Old 2013-10-15, 18:41   Link #33131
ALPHA-Beatrice
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None of this excludes the possibility, that someone completely unrelated to "the servant Kanon", coincidently has "Kanon" as a 2nd name.
**The Chaos Sorcerer's Blue Truth cuts through my red and I grunted**. True, if someone other than 'Kanon' has the name 'Kanon' as an alias, or even as a middle name, it's possible. That person isn't claiming Servant Kanon's name and might be a totally different person altogether.
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Old 2013-10-16, 17:53   Link #33132
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Quote:
I mean look at Shannon's double D's. George would know if that shit's fake
No he wouldn't. George is a loser who's never groped any boob.
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Old 2013-10-16, 23:50   Link #33133
ALPHA-Beatrice
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I have a new theory surrounding Kanon.

Kanon said his real name is 'Yoshiya'. It's possible that Battler recognized Kanon as Kanon, then when he went into the closet he became 'Yoshiya'. This satisfies that only Kanon can claim his name, and yet that 'Kanon' cannot exist in the Closet.
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Old 2013-10-17, 00:43   Link #33134
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Not exactly new. That or something along that line was pretty much the consensus of it back then.
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Old 2013-10-19, 06:06   Link #33135
ALPHA-Beatrice
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I also realized something else.

If what Bernkastel showed in game's 7 and 8 is true, then we know which games reflect Rokkenjima Prime

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime
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Old 2013-10-19, 06:26   Link #33136
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I personally doubt that we would get shown what happened in prime in such detail. Sure, hints here and there, and general gists, but to outright show us over four separate games what happened seems like it doesn't mesh with the point Ryu was trying to make.
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Old 2013-10-19, 14:23   Link #33137
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I also realized something else.

If what Bernkastel showed in game's 7 and 8 is true, then we know which games reflect Rokkenjima Prime

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime
Impossible. Battler does not survive Game 3 and Eva does not survive Game 4. Neither gameboard can be considered an accurate representation of what truly happened on Rokkenjima.
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Old 2013-10-19, 14:50   Link #33138
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Impossible. Battler does not survive Game 3 and Eva does not survive Game 4. Neither gameboard can be considered an accurate representation of what truly happened on Rokkenjima.
But in Game 3, Eva escapes via Kuwadorian and the murders of Natsuhi and Krauss are implicted. As Will said "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade." And in the 4th game, the "tests" are referenced, as well as the 6 people killed in the parlor.

Of course, I will acknowledge that the Setting of the 4th game Parlor massacre, and Bernkastel's scenario differ. But if we take the meta-physical to imply what occurred in the real world, then it's possible.
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Old 2013-10-19, 18:01   Link #33139
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
But in Game 3, Eva escapes via Kuwadorian and the murders of Natsuhi and Krauss are implicted. As Will said "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade." And in the 4th game, the "tests" are referenced, as well as the 6 people killed in the parlor.

Of course, I will acknowledge that the Setting of the 4th game Parlor massacre, and Bernkastel's scenario differ. But if we take the meta-physical to imply what occurred in the real world, then it's possible.
It would be interesting if the games written by Battler/Toya (Ep 3, 4, 5 & 6) all contained bits of what Battler remembered and therefore all contained bits of truth.
But at best the truth they contain can solely be the one Battler witnessed which isn't much.
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Old 2013-10-19, 21:28   Link #33140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
But in Game 3, Eva escapes via Kuwadorian and the murders of Natsuhi and Krauss are implicted. As Will said "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade." And in the 4th game, the "tests" are referenced, as well as the 6 people killed in the parlor.

Of course, I will acknowledge that the Setting of the 4th game Parlor massacre, and Bernkastel's scenario differ. But if we take the meta-physical to imply what occurred in the real world, then it's possible.
Doesn't matter. The earlier red you made is invalid.

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime

This statement cannot be made in red, because it is impossible for it to be true. Either Game 3 is what truly happened on Rokkenjima Prime, or Game 4 is. They can't both be true, because they are two sequences of possible events that explicitly and completely contradict on almost every data point. Hell, Battler doesn't survive EITHER game, he explodes or gets shot. Neither of which happened to him in Rokkenjima Prime.

So not only are they both incompatible with each other, but both of them are incompatible with the two actual facts we have about the outcome of the 1986 Family Conference. You are wrong.
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