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Old 2013-10-19, 23:04   Link #33141
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Doesn't matter. The earlier red you made is invalid.

Games 3 and 4 is what truly occurred on Rokkenjima Prime

This statement cannot be made in red, because it is impossible for it to be true. Either Game 3 is what truly happened on Rokkenjima Prime, or Game 4 is. They can't both be true, because they are two sequences of possible events that explicitly and completely contradict on almost every data point. Hell, Battler doesn't survive EITHER game, he explodes or gets shot. Neither of which happened to him in Rokkenjima Prime.

So not only are they both incompatible with each other, but both of them are incompatible with the two actual facts we have about the outcome of the 1986 Family Conference. You are wrong.
I propose a theory, this time in blue.

We know that Ushiromiya Battler AKA Toya survived what occurred during 1986. Yet, none of the games implies this fact.

Also Bernkastel declared Battler's death with the Red Truth

Maybe all of Battler's "deaths" on the gameboard reflect the concept that Battler lost his memories, and so the "being" known as Ushiromiya Battler is dead. But Hachijo Toya is still alive.

That way, it wouldn't contradict that the information given about games 3 and 4 could possibly reveal the truth or be the real two days of Rokkenjima Prime.
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Old 2013-10-20, 00:37   Link #33142
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I propose a theory, this time in blue.

We know that Ushiromiya Battler AKA Toya survived what occurred during 1986. Yet, none of the games implies this fact.
There may be a couple of things which could, or which at least support that option. Eva was known to have survived in Prime, if Prime exists, because she went outside the bomb radius in time, which means that surviving by that method was possible. EP 7 tells us about the submarine bay and so forth and the tunnels which people could use. As well as that, after Beatrice's stories had been found, we knew there was something special about the forgeries written by Hachijou Tohya (that they became the episodes after Beato's), and that it was enough that Ange wanted to investigate. Then, there's the matter of the content of the Tohya-written episodes, which can be seen as Tohya working through his issues.

Speaking of the use of red for Rokkenjima Prime in general, I'm not sure that red can even apply to (what is supposed to be the) "real world". Can't remember exactly what canon says about that, though.
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Old 2013-10-20, 08:18   Link #33143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Speaking of the use of red for Rokkenjima Prime in general, I'm not sure that red can even apply to (what is supposed to be the) "real world". Can't remember exactly what canon says about that, though.
Well, the manga gives it as follows:
There are two kinds of Red Truth.
There is one which is true for the individual gameboard it applies to, it concerns circumstances of death, state of crime scenes, and alibis (the examples given are the deaths of people in EP3, the number of master keys in EP2 or Kanon's death as the 9th victim in EP4).
The other one is that which is shared among each gameboard, this entails character traits, personality and complete background of the the characters, as well as the number of people on the island. This truth is doubtlessly true even outside the catbox. Examples given are, the existence of a Beatrice in Kuwadorian in 1967, that there are no more than 18 people on the island, both from EP3, and that Natsuhi was sitting all alone in the rose garden from EP5.
Also, neither of these Red Truths can state the existence of the witch's illusion.

EDIT:
Pertaining to Kanon was killed in this room, I found an interesting way to see it on the Japanese wiki.
If we see Kanon as Jessica's furniture, or rather the furniture that was created due to the wish and for the purpose of Jessica, then Jessica's death cancel's out the existence of said furniture.
EP6 introduced the two requirements for the death of furniture. One is the destruction of the vessel and the other is the death of the master.
Connecting this we could connect the murder of Jessica to a form of "killing the master". So the murder of Jessica is implicitly also the murder of Kanon.

Last edited by haguruma; 2013-10-20 at 08:45.
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Old 2013-10-20, 16:29   Link #33144
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I propose a theory, this time in blue.

We know that Ushiromiya Battler AKA Toya survived what occurred during 1986. Yet, none of the games implies this fact.

Also Bernkastel declared Battler's death with the Red Truth

Maybe all of Battler's "deaths" on the gameboard reflect the concept that Battler lost his memories, and so the "being" known as Ushiromiya Battler is dead. But Hachijo Toya is still alive.

That way, it wouldn't contradict that the information given about games 3 and 4 could possibly reveal the truth or be the real two days of Rokkenjima Prime.
In one Gameboard, he's shot, and in the other, he's taken out by the bomb, according to the reds. This doesn't really allow for the metaphorical death Bernkastel is referring to.

Even then, though, the two gameboards conflict too much for them both to be true. At best you can argue that Game 3 is true.
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Old 2013-10-20, 17:11   Link #33145
ALPHA-Beatrice
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I just thought of a beautiful theory to challenge Erika with. Yes, once more I'm taking on the Closed Guest Room.

**I snapped my fingers and brought everyone to the Witches table to debate**

Furudo Erika killed the 5 victims of the First Twilight, during that time Kanon
was already outside of the next room over.


Kanon witnessed Erika committing murder. At this time, Battler was in the Guest Room and he set up the trap in the bathroom.

Kanon rescued Battler who escaped and Kanon took his place inside the closet before Erika set foot in the room.

In other words

Ushiromiya Battler was NEVER inside the Guest room when Erika was inside of it after having the room sealed for the first time.

This way There's no Logic Error.

Allow me to rephrase more simply

The Timing. The timing from when Erika was committing the murders, to where Battler specifically was at the time as well as Kanon. The key to tricking the Closed Room isn't the chain. It's the timing of Erika's presence in the room and until the chain is re-set by Erika!

When Erika re-sets the chain, that room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room. HOWEVER, that guarantee doesn't apply to 'any time before Erika sets foot in the room'! after having the room sealed for the first time.

Last edited by ALPHA-Beatrice; 2013-10-20 at 18:33.
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Old 2013-10-20, 17:53   Link #33146
GreyZone
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^a lot of your red truths need "...after having the room sealed for the first time" attached to them.
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Old 2013-10-20, 18:38   Link #33147
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
^a lot of your red truths need "...after having the room sealed for the first time" attached to them.
Edited as suggested, but I think you understand my timing argument right?

At the time Erika was busy committing the murders. Because she had forsaken the detective's authority, anything around her and during that time could have done anything at all without her knowing.

In short, it wasn't a perfect closed room until Erika stepped in.

If Erika were to refute this and we were debating, I'd ask her to repeat this:

'you killed them instanteously' or 'That it was impossible for Kanon to enter the room before Erika does.'
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Old 2013-10-20, 20:20   Link #33148
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This truth is doubtlessly true even outside the catbox. Examples given are, the existence of a Beatrice in Kuwadorian in 1967, that there are no more than 18 people on the island, both from EP3, and that Natsuhi was sitting all alone in the rose garden from EP5.

How sad, I suppose Kinzo never really did trust Natsuhi not even once.
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Old 2013-10-20, 22:28   Link #33149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
How sad, I suppose Kinzo never really did trust Natsuhi not even once.
Well, it doesn't necessarily mean he didn't like her at least
He didn't even trust his own children further than their own shadows...if probed with Red Truth, the only person he really TRUSTS would probably be Genji. The part of Kinzo Bern was torturing Natsuhi with was centrally about trust in the sense of giving her the One-Winged Eagle.

But it's still kinda sad...
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Old 2013-10-21, 07:20   Link #33150
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I think the true moral of Umineko is that Kinzo was a really terrible human being in like 95% of the ways that matter.
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Old 2013-10-21, 15:26   Link #33151
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Even if that's true, it's probably not the moral of the story since he's a non-entity for pretty much every non-backstory part of it.
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Old 2013-10-21, 15:34   Link #33152
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Well, he's not physically there, but you could certainly argue that it's his influence on all the other family members, and on Yasu, that's at the root of all the problems at the family conference.
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Old 2013-10-21, 19:44   Link #33153
haguruma
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, he's not physically there, but you could certainly argue that it's his influence on all the other family members, and on Yasu, that's at the root of all the problems at the family conference.
Though if you absolve the family members of their flaws by extension of Kinzo, you could also say that he simply became the man he was because of him being forced into a life he hated, a marriage with a woman he didn't love and was incapable to ever realize even one of his dreams.

Yes, Kinzo was very likely on the one hand a horrible person, but also very much a product of his environment.
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Old 2013-10-21, 21:48   Link #33154
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I think you can blame a lot on his environment, but building his family home on top of a bomb and the home of his mistress outside of its radius is pretty cruddy
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Old 2013-10-22, 00:55   Link #33155
DaBackpack
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The only evidence we have of Kinzo having knowledge of the bomb is in the Forgeries, so maybe we can blame the authors' perception of Kinzo :P Also, we have no confirmation that there was a mechanism to control the bomb in the Golden Land.

Is it possible that Kinzo really didn't know about the bomb in R-Prime and that it was truly an accident? Can you screw up that badly as an landowner? I mean, Krauss went years without noticing anything suspicious...
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Old 2013-10-22, 07:48   Link #33156
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Krauss probably did know about Kuwadorian since he had that fly-over audit, the rest was all underground I assume. He was never really alive that long to talk about it.
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Old 2013-10-22, 09:14   Link #33157
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Krauss probably did know about Kuwadorian since he had that fly-over audit, the rest was all underground I assume. He was never really alive that long to talk about it.
Unless the manga makes an argument in another direction I'd assume though that Krauss did not know about the underground explosives. Access was probably blocked off not only from the entrance close to the chapel but also from the Kuwadorian side.
At least Krauss and Rosa did know about Kuwadorian, but the underground tunnels are a completely different story depending on how well they were hidden.

The argument of living somewhere for a long time does not exactly count as an argument. I lived my whole childhood above an old WWII bunker system possibly connected to the cole mining company that existed directly next to my childhood home from before the war to before I was born. The entrances had been walled shut and I always assumed that they must have filled it all up, but who knows.
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Old 2013-10-23, 05:54   Link #33158
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I may have been unclear, I was saying that I believe that Krauss knew about Kuwadorian and NOT the underground stuff, so we are likely in agreement.

Krauss would never have left his family on top of a pile of explosives, but he potentially would have known about his dad's secret hideaway and not said anything to Natsuhi (after all, he has done it before with the gold). He probably had the place checked out and knows it is empty, so never brings it up as a potential place for someone on the island to be hiding.
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Old 2013-10-23, 17:49   Link #33159
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No idea if the manga will give more info about the explosives but I like how its scenes are much more filled with emotions and give the characters much more deep.
When Ange cries out her pain at Beato, Beato thinks back at how she too suffered while in the visual novel she's just trying to be wise, adult and all knowing.
It's also good how Erika trashes Battler in a duel of red and blue about the current mystery of Umineko instead than just having the two of them fighting on closed room murders.
I also like how Beato catches Battler, resquing him from the goats, in a scene that reminds me of the killer fan.
And I really want to see the full episode and not just random pages because I've gotten curious about the message bottle Ange read as there was not such scene in the visual novel...
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Old 2013-10-25, 07:07   Link #33160
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So like a good little fanboy I have been ordering the umineko manga and giving Ryu more of my sparse amounts of cash, and I was so excited to get to the first red truth battle.

Except it isn't red truth, it's bold font. Was the colour just changed in the online versions, or did the Japenese fanbase actually get red?

This is not a red truth
This is a red truth
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