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Old 2013-10-21, 17:17   Link #2261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
I'm going to stop you there because Another is a terrible example of a show that "uses humor wisely".
Another is a fantastic comedy, yes, but despite it having a comedy director it probably wasn't meant to be one at all.
I don't recall Another being questionable in quality because of it's intentional bad humour, I remember it being questionable due to its over the top deaths and the trainwreck last two episodes. It never intended or tried too hard to be funny, though it sort of was funny because of how ridiculous the deaths were. KnK on the other hand, Kyoani is trying REALLY HARD with their usual gimmicks and forcing humour in a non-comedy centric series and that is where the difference lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
Much of the tone of Kyokai thus far has been, even during action scenes, a sort of laid-back irrelevancy, which actually fits very well with what they're going for. The characters don't take their yokai hunting particularly seriously; it's just something that they do for a living.
That style of worldbuilding is actually quite interesting, IMO
I'm just seeing a typical shonen action light novel centric plot here, which is fine if it was just a typical shonen action light novel, but is it REALLY necessary to have buckets fall on clumsy girl's heads or eccentuate she's so clumsy she has trouble climbing over fences, or that mega annoying "Furukai desu" or w/e lousy catchphrase that Kyoani decided to tack on. I mean Strike the Blood and Tokyo Ravens and the like are also generic as hell but they don't force bad humour no where near as much as this does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
Hmm. I suppose I was wrong, then, but that brings up another explanation I had in mind.
In this case I'd think that a lot of the complaints and criticism directed at KyoAni shows in particular are complaints that could be leveled at general trends in anime as a whole. KyoAni gets the brunt of these complaints because their shows inevitably have a lot of hype behind them, which results in more attention being directed their way, even from people who would not normally watch those kind of shows.
Yes and no. Yes because Kyoani conforms to general trends to a level that no other major studio does (I seriously cannot think of another studio that conforms to their "signature" style as much as Kyoani does) but fortunately enough they get away it, at least for now, because of the fanbase they have. Is it a good thing? I'd argue no for this case because it was a truly a chance for Kyoani to break away from its mold, which they spectacularly failed at. However, the answer is no in relation to hype though. You want a studio that get's more "bashing" than Kyoani, no look further than JC Staff or Studio Deen. You want a series that's getting hyped that has "blind haters" or not accusations to it this season - Kill la Kill. KnK is pretty irrelevant in comparison and its reception and popularity is about as high as Tamako Market as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I mean, you guys wouldn't normally watch "moe comedies", right?
Wrong. I watched and really liked the new Minami ke a few seasons back. Servant x Service was ok of what I've watched but I never finished it. Watamote was brilliant and that had ton of Tomoko moe in it, albeit in twisted ironic ways. I know that many of the posters on AS feel the same.
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Old 2013-10-21, 17:30   Link #2262
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I certainly didn't expect a "moe comedy" from Kyoukai no Kanata, not with that trailer. Though to be fair to moe comedies, it's "moe nonsense" is what it is.
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Old 2013-10-21, 17:55   Link #2263
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
You really think that I choose Kyoani in particular to criticize? C'mon kaisos, you know me better than that. I crap on many shows, not just from any particular studio. The only studio you can accuse me of studio bias is DEEN and that's well deserved.
If we want some actual studio bias, I find Sunrise and JC Staff getting shat upon more unfairly than others, though it's not entirely without reason.

It's hard to say Kyoani is being singled out, usually personally, if I single out something for ridicule, it's going to be Partially Acceptable Works and I love them too in a messed up way. My typical attitude towards Kyoani is currently apathy though I am certainly thankful for the work they did for Key and Haruhi. Most of their new stuff I just can't watch, but I usually just ignore them instead of following them every episode typing 36 pages about rants nobody cares about. I wish people would share the same consideration for me, but whatever.
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Old 2013-10-21, 18:01   Link #2264
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Just a random thought. Can you imagine if Haruhi was done by Toei like the various Key works were?
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Old 2013-10-21, 18:07   Link #2265
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Just a random thought. Can you imagine if Haruhi was done by Toei like the various Key works were?
Just stretch everyone's faces twice as long.

Though honestly, you can't fault Toei too much. The original Key designs for Kanon were pretty bad, and maybe I just don't like their artist, but most of the designs remained awful, except for a select few characters like Tomoyo. And honestly, Toei Air doesn't look that much worse than Kyoani Air. Toei Clannad was just -_- though.

Hell, I thought Little Busters! designs in the VN were still quite bad and even JC staff was able to make them look better.

But yes, I think one of the greatest accomplishments for Kyoani was to turn Key's crappy designs into something decent looking... sometimes. And it was not an easy process-- Air especially and less in Kanon had a lot of derpy looking moments. If you look at Clannad and then go back to Air designs, it's sorta like "uhh... no, why are those eyes so far apart?" And Kyoani also gave most of the female characters some actual curves instead of anorexic washboards (for a bad example, go look at Deengurashi season 1), so... yay?
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Old 2013-10-21, 19:13   Link #2266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm going to stop you there because Another is a terrible example of a show that "uses humor wisely".
Another is a fantastic comedy, yes, but despite it having a comedy director it probably wasn't meant to be one at all.
It's cute how you ignored Utsuro's example about humor that fits in order to grab an opportunity to joke about the entire Another series. Yeah, the last episodes weren't exactly the most convincing in the drama/horror department. Doesn't mean that the scene Utsuro is talking about wasn't funny (it was).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Much of the tone of Kyokai thus far has been, even during action scenes, a sort of laid-back irrelevancy, which actually fits very well with what they're going for. The characters don't take their yokai hunting particularly seriously; it's just something that they do for a living.
That style of worldbuilding is actually quite interesting, IMO.
The kind of overall tone the creators were going for is quite interesting, I agree. If only they could execute it better.

I'm not asking Kyoukai no Kanata to be super-serious or anything. Heck, episode 3 was mostly serious, and it wasn't any better than the previous episodes. I want the comedy to actually be funny and not degrade the main heroine.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I mean, you guys wouldn't normally watch "moe comedies", right?
I'm watching one right now and it blows every KyoAni "moe comedy" except maybe Suzumiya Haruhi out of the water when it comes to effective comedy and moe characters.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Just a random thought. Can you imagine if Haruhi was done by Toei like the various Key works were?
Toei is huge. Depends on the staff and budget. They could make it look awesome if they allocated something similar to Kyousougiga or Heartcatch Precure's staff.
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Old 2013-10-22, 04:07   Link #2267
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Big post incoming, I apologize in advance.
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Wrong. I watched and really liked the new Minami ke a few seasons back. Servant x Service was ok of what I've watched but I never finished it. Watamote was brilliant and that had ton of Tomoko moe in it, albeit in twisted ironic ways. I know that many of the posters on AS feel the same.
These are terrible examples of "moe comedies".
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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
I'm watching one right now and it blows every KyoAni "moe comedy" except maybe Suzumiya Haruhi out of the water when it comes to effective comedy and moe characters.
Now Love Lab, that's a pretty good example of a "moe comedy", if a rather unusual one.
Haruhi is not.

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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
Doesn't mean that the scene Utsuro is talking about wasn't funny (it was).
I don't think it was particularly fitting, and, again, though I was admittedly making a joke at Another's expense, I really don't think it's a great example of something that integrates humor into a more serious narrative well at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Kyoani is trying REALLY HARD with their usual gimmicks and forcing humour in a non-comedy centric series and that is where the difference lies.
I mean Strike the Blood and Tokyo Ravens and the like are also generic as hell but they don't force bad humour no where near as much as this does.
I think you have this problem where you have these very strict definitions of what can and can't be allowed in specific genres, and you're certainly not the only person I've met with such a problem, so I wouldn't worry at all.
Precious few of the fights in Kyokai so far are actually serious or life-threatening... as I said, they're very laid-back and irrelevant, so the presence of comedy fits perfectly well in-context.
Whether or not you think the comedy is good or not is your opinion and you're entitled to that, but I don't think you can really say that the humor is being "forced".

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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
I'd argue no for this case because it was a truly a chance for Kyoani to break away from its mold, which they spectacularly failed at.
a) KyoAni hasn't made an action show since, what, TSR? Certainly not one without mechs before, either. That's pretty mold-breaking.
b) I would also like to remind you that you are talking about a show with only three episodes out as of this writing. If I were to judge whether a show had "succeeded" or "failed" after only three episodes, Hyouka would be a pretty but boring show with underdeveloped, artificial characters and Chu2Koi a vibrant, comic masterpiece.

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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I certainly didn't expect a "moe comedy" from Kyoukai no Kanata, not with that trailer. Though to be fair to moe comedies, it's "moe nonsense" is what it is.
What trailer? This one, in which there are many comedy-like elements present? This one, which, yes, emphasizes the series' action/supernatural elements, and was released very close to this one, which is both moe and comic in nature? Or do you mean this one, which was released both long before an actual anime adaptation was announced and long before almost anyone in the English-speaking community knew anything at all about the series, and as a result were given the chance to impose all of their delusions and expectations about what a "KyoAni action series" would be like onto what was at the time effectively a blank slate?
I'm sorry, you don't get to pull the "the big bad KyoAni tricked me with all their insidious cynical moe" card here, what the series was going to be was obvious quite some time before airing if you were actually bothering to pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
KnK is pretty irrelevant in comparison and its reception and popularity is about as high as Tamako Market as far as I can tell.
The sheer amount of hatred I see for this show is really unwarranted especially considering its small following, but also because it is (in my opinion) not awful, but merely mediocre.
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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
The kind of overall tone the creators were going for is quite interesting, I agree. If only they could execute it better.
Yeah, it's kind of a shame. This week is going to be really terrible because Mirai isn't exactly a well-written character and they're going to have hyper-dramatic scenes that are very dependent on her being a well-written character.

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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Yes because Kyoani conforms to general trends to a level that no other major studio does (I seriously cannot think of another studio that conforms to their "signature" style as much as Kyoani does)
Yeah, see, this is because KyoAni is a relatively small studio, with most of their shows being produced by the same core staff.
It's actually far more accurate to talk about "KyoAni shows" as following "general trends" more than it is for any other studio because of this, yes, and any "oh it's JC Staff being JC Staff again" or "SUNRISE TRAINWRECK" or what have you comments are pretty ignorant of the huge variation in staff between shows produced under the same studio label.
I think that those generalized remarks directed at X studio and Y thing they produce only apply to KyoAni and really not even then, as I'd argue a lot of their shows are only superficially similar; they feel the same because they have the same people working on them.
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Old 2013-10-22, 04:36   Link #2268
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What trailer? This one, in which there are many comedy-like elements present? This one, which, yes, emphasizes the series' action/supernatural elements, and was released very close to this one, which is both moe and comic in nature? Or do you mean this one, which was released both long before an actual anime adaptation was announced and long before almost anyone in the English-speaking community knew anything at all about the series, and as a result were given the chance to impose all of their delusions and expectations about what a "KyoAni action series" would be like onto what was at the time effectively a blank slate?
I'm sorry, you don't get to pull the "the big bad KyoAni tricked me with all their insidious cynical moe" card here, what the series was going to be was obvious quite some time before airing if you were actually bothering to pay attention.
I probably watched the first one that was released. I usually don't bother with follow-up trailers if the anime has me convinced, since most of the time they just recycle the footage.

However, I'd be hesitant to call the series a blank slate when they produced a fully animated trailer for it. Though you should be aware, it was Kyoto Animation that released it, it was their promotion, their decision to make it look like the way they intended. If anyone is responsible for people getting a wrong impression about the series, it's them. But I wouldn't say they betrayed my expectations, the series' feel comes close to a mix between Kara no Kyoukai and Yozakura Quartet however, as I've said in the KnK thread, they mixed in light novel meta and their trademark comic relief inserts. This is something I cannot forgive, especially the former, and it takes a special kind of fan to appreciate them pulling the latter out for every possible setting.

There is no "big bad KyoAni", Kaisos Erranon, I have other shows this season to care for. Have you checked out Kill la Kill or Kyousougiga or Yowamushi pedal or Non Non Biyori? Those are the shows I'm watching this season and they're all great at what they do. Kyoukai no Kanata is not great at what it does, you admit this yourself. So why are you trying so hard to defend it? KyoAni will get shit on for this series, as is rightly so, you don't need to be there crying for it, especially if you think the show sucks.
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Old 2013-10-22, 06:51   Link #2269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Big post incoming, I apologize in advance. These are terrible examples of "moe comedies".
Subjective. I thought they all had great moments with fair amount of "moe" so whatever. Just happens they didn't have anywhere near as much amounts of "retard" or "airhead" humour.

Quote:
I don't think it was particularly fitting, and, again, though I was admittedly making a joke at Another's expense, I really don't think it's a great example of something that integrates humour into a more serious narrative well at all.
Er... I didn't find any poor deliberate attempts at humour in Another. Like I said before it was the over the top deaths that made it ultimately unintentionally funny... like the "pillar death" or the "lolboat". KnK and Kyoani shows on the other constantly throw gags and antics at your face and expect you to laugh. Sometimes you do, but not the ones in KnK.

Quote:
I think you have this problem where you have these very strict definitions of what can and can't be allowed in specific genres, and you're certainly not the only person I've met with such a problem, so I wouldn't worry at all.
And where did I say that. Never did I say you can't have light hearted moments as breathers in a serious show, but the way KnK does it is just completely out of place.

Quote:
Precious few of the fights in Kyokai so far are actually serious or life-threatening... as I said, they're very laid-back and irrelevant, so the presence of comedy fits perfectly well in-context. Whether or not you think the comedy is good or not is your opinion and you're entitled to that, but I don't think you can really say that the humor is being "forced".
Again, subjective and context. Doesn't matter if its serious or life-threatening, the fact that buckets fall on the MC's head or she's clumsily failing climbing a fence is just plain not funny. Kind of like if a female in a serious drama decided to bend over and give a obnoxious random panty shot for the sake of it, which is plain not arousing. They are distracting, forced and out of place. It's bad pandering.

Quote:
a) KyoAni hasn't made an action show since, what, TSR? Certainly not one without mechs before, either. That's pretty mold-breaking.
Doesn't matter they are doing a different genre. The fact that they are doing it in a style in the lenses of the same gimmicks, tropes, gags that they've always done for years and years means they aren't breaking any molds.

Quote:
b) I would also like to remind you that you are talking about a show with only three episodes out as of this writing. If I were to judge whether a show had "succeeded" or "failed" after only three episodes, Hyouka would be a pretty but boring show with underdeveloped, artificial characters and Chu2Koi a vibrant, comic masterpiece.
3 episodes of the same bad forced hijinks but with a plot that's taken straight out a typical shonen action light novel. 3 episodes of a 1 cour series is plenty of time to get an idea of what the series is about, and I still have no idea what to expect other than the bad antics are gonna continue.

Quote:
The sheer amount of hatred I see for this show is really unwarranted especially considering its small following, but also because it is (in my opinion) not awful, but merely mediocre.
The sheer amount of defending that you do for this show is also unwarranted especially considering the majority opinion at least on this forum seems to think it's mediocre. Why are you trying so hard to defend it when you say it's mediocre yourself.

Also I don't recall anyone saying it's the "worst shit ever". This is no Oreimo or Sword Art Online we are talking about here.

Quote:
Yeah, see, this is because KyoAni is a relatively small studio, with most of their shows being produced by the same core staff.
It's actually far more accurate to talk about "KyoAni shows" as following "general trends" more than it is for any other studio because of this, yes, and any "oh it's JC Staff being JC Staff again" or "SUNRISE TRAINWRECK" or what have you comments are pretty ignorant of the huge variation in staff between shows produced under the same studio label.
I think that those generalized remarks directed at X studio and Y thing they produce only apply to KyoAni and really not even then, as I'd argue a lot of their shows are only superficially similar; they feel the same because they have the same people working on them.
No excuse. What about some of the other smaller studios like White Fox, Brains Base, PA Works and heaven forbid even Silver Link. They take significantly more risks, have a lot more variety whilst having their signature or preferred genres and styles by mixing it up once in a while and also have a fair amount of successes in their belts. You're basically saying Kyoani should be excepted from taking criticism because they do a majority of the work in-house and don't take creative risks. So I guess Call of Duty games are immune to criticism then too?
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Old 2013-10-22, 07:47   Link #2270
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Makes me wonder deep down some peeps don't like the fact that Free's successes will offset some of the upcoming mediocre performers that are aimed for guys.
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Old 2013-10-22, 10:18   Link #2271
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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
However, I'd be hesitant to call the series a blank slate when they produced a fully animated trailer for it. Though you should be aware, it was Kyoto Animation that released it, it was their promotion, their decision to make it look like the way they intended. If anyone is responsible for people getting a wrong impression about the series, it's them. But I wouldn't say they betrayed my expectations, the series' feel comes close to a mix between Kara no Kyoukai and Yozakura Quartet however, as I've said in the KnK thread, they mixed in light novel meta and their trademark comic relief inserts. This is something I cannot forgive, especially the former, and it takes a special kind of fan to appreciate them pulling the latter out for every possible setting.
Correction: it was Kyoto Animation's producers/board who decided to advertise their latest LN with a commercial. Taichi Ishidate storyboarded/directed the commercial for the light novel and decided what it would look like. The mythological "Kyoto Animation" did not decide the content of the advertisement.

Similarly, the producers/board at Kyoto Animation decided to adapt the light novel into an anime. The current series is an anime adaptation of the novel with Ishidate and Hanada making the series fit into 13/14 episodes how they see fit. They are in charge of making this series what is currently airing, not the producers/board. There is a difference between the two. We don't say that the "Swimming CM" is an advertisement for "Free!" even though they share a similar base.

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No excuse. What about some of the other smaller studios like White Fox, Brains Base, PA Works and heaven forbid even Silver Link. They take significantly more risks, have a lot more variety whilst having their signature or preferred genres and styles by mixing it up once in a while and also have a fair amount of successes in their belts. You're basically saying Kyoani should be excepted from taking criticism because they do a majority of the work in-house and don't take creative risks. So I guess Call of Duty games are immune to criticism then too?
Correction: the producers who contracted those studios to animate their adaptations (and thus the original creators) and the directors/series composers assigned "take more risks," not the studios' producers/board themselves. There is a difference.

One better way to phrase some of the issues raised about the series would be "Hanada's still using his style of comedy we saw in Chuunibyou. It really doesn't fit this material and I wish the producers at KyoAni would've gotten another series composer who has worked on something like this before."
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Old 2013-10-22, 10:30   Link #2272
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Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
Similarly, the producers/board at Kyoto Animation decided to adapt the light novel into an anime. The current series is an anime adaptation of the novel with Ishidate and Hanada making the series fit into 13/14 episodes how they see fit. They are in charge of making this series what is currently airing, not the producers/board. There is a difference between the two. We don't say that the "Swimming CM" is an advertisement for "Free!" even though they share a similar base.
Several posters have already pointed out this argument doesn't fly when it is their employees and their products that represent the KyoAni brand. If you can make a counter argument to that, I would be all ears. As for Free! (and KnK) it was clearly decided when those trailers got released that those properties are getting anime adaptations. Do you have a source where it says that they decided on developing those into an anime after they have analyzed the generated interest? Until you can provide that, I will just stick to the more plausible explanation that production was already on the way.
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Old 2013-10-22, 11:48   Link #2273
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Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
Correction: the producers who contracted those studios to animate their adaptations (and thus the original creators) and the directors/series composers assigned "take more risks," not the studios' producers/board themselves. There is a difference.
Didn't HanaIro and Tari Tari originate in-house at PA Works? Committing two cours to an animated dorama seems a lot riskier than any of KyoAni's in-house productions, and the result, despite the flaws, was a lot more interesting.
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Old 2013-10-22, 12:52   Link #2274
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Several posters have already pointed out this argument doesn't fly when it is their employees and their products that represent the KyoAni brand. If you can make a counter argument to that, I would be all ears. As for Free! (and KnK) it was clearly decided when those trailers got released that those properties are getting anime adaptations. Do you have a source where it says that they decided on developing those into an anime after they have analyzed the generated interest? Until you can provide that, I will just stick to the more plausible explanation that production was already on the way.
The "represents the KyoAni Brand" argument is idiotic. Producers are in charge of bringing staff together and deciding what general work to do; they don't micromanage each decision the director/series composer does. They keep production moving along and help physically make the show. Directors/series composers decide how the series is adapted/made. To give an example from another company, Producer Horikawa from PA Works wanted to make a show about a chorus. He mentioned it to Producer Nagatani, who assembled the staff and the actual show was made via director/series composer Hashimoto (and that's how TARI TARI was made). I didn't respond to it earlier because I was taking a break from the fandom over the weekend and forgot about it.

Hanada said in the Kyoukai guidebook interview that they chose to insert original material because all they had upon starting was one novel and the draft of the second novel (published earlier this year). The CM was run prior to publishing the first novel, thus it was made before anime production started for Kyoukai (basically it was at the beginning stages of anime production. Scripts are done about 6 months before the anime starts, so Hanada was likely working on it during Chuunibyou/Love Live.

For Free!, the CM features a character that was later altered into Rei instead, Kaede, instead of Rei, showing that it has no connection to the anime material (Kaede-> transition detailed in the Free guidebook).

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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Didn't HanaIro and Tari Tari originate in-house at PA Works? Committing two cours to an animated dorama seems a lot riskier than any of KyoAni's in-house productions, and the result, despite the flaws, was a lot more interesting.
Both series had other companies financing the production much moreso than KyoAni's works. For example, let's look at Hanasaku Iroha's production committee:
Pony Canyon, Lantis, Yomuri Television Enterprise, Good Smile Company, Sotsu, Kids Station, Cospa, Showgate, and P.A. Works (TariTari had a similar committee with PA above Showgate and without Yomuri. true tears was fully Bandai Visual/Lantis)

The higher you are on the committee means the more money you financially invested in the production. KyoAni's latest works have the following committee:
Kyoto Animation, Pony Canyon, Lantis (except Tamako Market), TBS/Asahi Broadcasting.

They're fronting most of the funds unlike P.A. Works, so that's why it's more risky for the studio than those PA Works series mentioned. As for "more interesting," that's a personal opinion, which I personally have no issue with anyone saying.
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Old 2013-10-22, 13:12   Link #2275
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Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
The "represents the KyoAni Brand" argument is idiotic. Producers are in charge of bringing staff together and deciding what general work to do; they don't micromanage each decision the director/series composer does. They keep production moving along and help physically make the show. Directors/series composers decide how the series is adapted/made. To give an example from another company, Producer Horikawa from PA Works wanted to make a show about a chorus. He mentioned it to Producer Nagatani, who assembled the staff and the actual show was made via director/series composer Hashimoto (and that's how TARI TARI was made). I didn't respond to it earlier because I was taking a break from the fandom over the weekend and forgot about it.
I don't see how this refutes anything. The producers within the studio, or for the studio are still making decisions about what the brand is doing. The staff follow suit. In the end, whatever decisions they make reflect largely upon the studio's identity. Especially for a studio like KyoAni which is largely inhouse with their staff and work very intimately with their productions, I think they have more of an identity than many studios.
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Old 2013-10-22, 13:23   Link #2276
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I don't see how this refutes anything. The producers within the studio, or for the studio are still making decisions about what the brand is doing. The staff follow suit. In the end, whatever decisions they make reflect largely upon the studio's identity. Especially for a studio like KyoAni which is largely inhouse with their staff and work very intimately with their productions, I think they have more of an identity than many studios.
And you're wrong. The same producers chose to make Free! (minus the switch between TBS/Asahi Broadcasting with Nakayama replacing Nishide), which your argument would say it'd have the same general feel (which it doesn't). Shows are different due to directors/series composers. This is why you have them and not some conglomerate studio identity (otherwise you're saying every single show from other studios is exactly the same, which is incorrect). Kyoukai is Kyoukai because of Ishidate/Hanada doing what they wanted to do. Free! is Free! because of Utsumi/Yokutani (especially due to Utsumi who had a huge hand in everything (READ THE GUIDEBOOK INTERVIEW!) doing what they wanted to do. (and so on).

You could comment "the insular environment has made each of the directors develop similar preferences/styles in how they depict certain scenes" or "Having Ishihara direct so many shows influenced many of the other staffers." That would be more correct for the situation. Instead you make it sound like there's one amorphous body that is KyoAni and nothing else inside impacts their productions.
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Old 2013-10-22, 13:27   Link #2277
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I think you have this problem where you have these very strict definitions of what can and can't be allowed in specific genres, and you're certainly not the only person I've met with such a problem, so I wouldn't worry at all.
Precious few of the fights in Kyokai so far are actually serious or life-threatening... as I said, they're very laid-back and irrelevant, so the presence of comedy fits perfectly well in-context.
Whether or not you think the comedy is good or not is your opinion and you're entitled to that, but I don't think you can really say that the humor is being "forced".

I don't think he's saying silly humor shouldn't be allowed in a supernatural show, but rather that the tone that the silly humor set up doesn't work well with the sudden 'serious' backstory for Mirai and the plot developments in episode 3-4.

Picking a right tone is incredibly important especially if you want to tell a serious story. If the tone isn't right jokes will fall flat and drama will feel forced. Most people are complaining that this is the case for KnK so far, as the first 2 episodes seem to have created this silly and light hearted atmosphere that has pretty much trivialized anything serious in the story but then episode 3 suddenly goes full throttle on the dark past and suicidal redemption story line. This sudden gear shift just doesn't work, which is why most people are complaining about the silly jokes in the earlier episodes.

Basically, if KyoAn wanted to tell a silly and lighthearted story, they should not have Mirai's background be so dark, and even if they did, it shouldn't have come into play full blast so early. If they wanted to tell a more serious story, they should have cut back on the silliness and developed a more serious tone right from the beginning.
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Old 2013-10-22, 13:31   Link #2278
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the tone that the silly humor set up doesn't work well with the sudden 'serious' backstory for Mirai and the plot developments in episode 3-4.
It's not sudden, it's foreshadowed plenty.
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Originally Posted by RobotCat View Post
This sudden gear shift just doesn't work, which is why most people are complaining about the silly jokes in the earlier episodes.
People were complaining about them long before the shift to a more dramatic mood, because a more dramatic show was what they wanted in the first place.
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Several posters have already pointed out this argument doesn't fly when it is their employees and their products that represent the KyoAni brand. If you can make a counter argument to that, I would be all ears.
Here's a counter-argument: in the majority of cases, the creatives, not the suits, get to make all the important decisions on how something gets adapted, if not necessarily what they're going to adapt.
This is the reason why "trademark KyoAni comedy" is a ridiculous notion, because the director and series comp heading each project are the ones making the decisions about what kind of content is included, not the studio as an entity itself.
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Doesn't matter they are doing a different genre. The fact that they are doing it in a style in the lenses of the same gimmicks, tropes, gags that they've always done for years and years means they aren't breaking any molds.
You're arguing that Kyokai isn't mold-breaking because its humor is similar to, say, Chu2Koi, while ignoring the show's genre, setting, etc and how these are very different from just about every other KyoAni show.
Are they fairly generic in the sense that they're common in light novels? Yes. Are they unusual (and therefore mold-breaking) for KyoAni? Also yes.
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What about some of the other smaller studios like White Fox, Brains Base, PA Works and heaven forbid even Silver Link.
White Fox, Brains Base, and PA all usually rely on freelancers and, for that matter, outside projects that they are contracted to work on, like ultimatemegax said. Silver Link has the ever-present Shin Oonuma, sure, sure, but Silver Link is a pretty bad example of a studio that "takes risks and sees successes for it".
KyoAni shows are made by people with permanent jobs at KyoAni (with the exception of their scriptwriters), who have worked on a large percentage of their shows and who don't do any work for any other studio. That's the difference.
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Old 2013-10-22, 13:32   Link #2279
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Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
And you're wrong. The same producers chose to make Free! (minus the switch between TBS/Asahi Broadcasting with Nakayama replacing Nishide), which your argument would say it'd have the same general feel (which it doesn't). Shows are different due to directors/series composers. This is why you have them and not some conglomerate studio identity (otherwise you're saying every single show from other studios is exactly the same, which is incorrect). Kyoukai is Kyoukai because of Ishidate/Hanada doing what they wanted to do. Free! is Free! because of Utsumi/Yokutani (especially due to Utsumi who had a huge hand in everything (READ THE GUIDEBOOK INTERVIEW!) doing what they wanted to do. (and so on).

You could comment "the insular environment has made each of the directors develop similar preferences/styles in how they depict certain scenes" or "Having Ishihara direct so many shows influenced many of the other staffers." That would be more correct for the situation. Instead you make it sound like there's one amorphous body that is KyoAni and nothing else inside impacts their productions.
My argument isn't that every Kyoani production is inherently the same. No of course, there are different people behind each project, though we could draw correlation between other Kyoani productions with the same exact director/writer/producer combos. Of course there are going to be some differences, and if we want to single out people in certain productions, that's very doable. I already realize a good amount of the blame for Kyoukai no Kanata is probably due to the director. However, it's also to the people who staffed her, and the studio as a whole has to bear the consequences of that.

Moreover, Kyoani is an entity as a whole, regardless of what individual is put on a project. The studio bears the responsibility of whatever people produce work through them. Yeah, maybe there's an incompetent director or writer on such and such project, but that does absolve the leadership in the company of their responsibility as well? Have you never heard the concept of leadership bearing responsibility for their underlings? Leaders of countries get blamed all the time for the people they staff who do bad work.
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Old 2013-10-22, 13:47   Link #2280
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
My argument isn't that every Kyoani production is inherently the same. No of course, there are different people behind each project, though we could draw correlation between other Kyoani productions with the same exact director/writer/producer combos. Of course there are going to be some differences, and if we want to single out people in certain productions, that's very doable. I already realize a good amount of the blame for Kyoukai no Kanata is probably due to the director. However, it's also to the people who staffed her, and the studio as a whole has to bear the consequences of that.

Moreover, Kyoani is an entity as a whole, regardless of what individual is put on a project. The studio bears the responsibility of whatever people produce work through them. Yeah, maybe there's an incompetent director or writer on such and such project, but that does absolve the leadership in the company of their responsibility as well? Have you never heard the concept of leadership bearing responsibility for their underlings? Leaders of countries get blamed all the time for the people they staff who do bad work.
Your post makes little logical sense to me. I wish to clarify this so that I can properly respond.

Are you saying "Sure the director's at fault, but it's fair to blame the people who assigned him that job for his decisions?"
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