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Old 2013-10-23, 00:03   Link #4461
Sansker
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Well we also have to consider the Servants need prana or mana (I always confuse the terms) so that is what they actually seek out when they “eat” people. Kirei used that room on the church to feed Gilgamesh with energy so he could have power even when their contract was done after the war. So, in a sense, they work like vampires draining blood just that they drain energy and soul. So a powerful mage like Rin should be able to last longer while being drain than a weaker mage or a normal person. In the Blood of Andromeda field some people were two steps away from melting.
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Old 2013-10-23, 02:05   Link #4462
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Well that's easy. We convert the food we eat to energy. So can spirits.
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Old 2013-10-24, 00:35   Link #4463
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Would it be feasible for a person to come back after being drained? The people in the 'gas leaks' went into comas, right? Given the nature of what Servants do to them, would these people ever even be able to wake up from their comas?

Whether it's feasible or not depends not so much on who is doing the draining as much as how much they want to drain.

The 'gas leak' incidents were caused by Caster, who was specifically holding back so she could repeatedly drain the same people. By that logic, its not that much of a stretch to say someone who survives a draining for whatever reason will eventually make a full recovery.

Bloodfort is useful especially, since it shows that 1) those who aren't saved literally melt, which would make them definitely unsaveable and 2) those who are saved are hospitalized and able to recover. The reason magi aren't affected by Bloodfort is because of Magic Circuits providing natural resistance to outside magical forces. Since Bloodfort is a boundary field, it uses magic, and so can be resisted. Other means of draining someone of spiritual energy, like Rider drinking blood as we see her do in...Fate route I believe? would probably not be resistable. Though, assuming they don't die of blood loss, a magus would probably be more resistant to soul-death just because of the fact they have more prana to work with.

If I remember correctly, Shirou and Rin do manage to save the girl Rider attacked, so theoretically it would also be possible to save a magus.

For your side question, yes, Caster shows she is clearly able to choose how much she drains from her victims, and Rider is able to drain Shirou in HF without scarring him for life, so I assume she can do the same.


As far as the actual mechanism they use to do it, there are lots. Caster uses magic that covers the entire town, Rider has bloodfort, can do 'funny' things in peoples dreams, and drinks their blood directly. And then there's the Heaven's Feel thing.
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Old 2013-10-24, 03:06   Link #4464
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Oooh now I'm the one with a question.

That uh, "dream" that Shirou had during the hf route. I understand this is Rider's doing, but it's never actually referred to and the only hint of it being Rider is because her eyes are there. So where does the info come from that it was Rider draining Shirou's energy?
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Old 2013-10-24, 03:24   Link #4465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Oooh now I'm the one with a question.

That uh, "dream" that Shirou had during the hf route. I understand this is Rider's doing, but it's never actually referred to and the only hint of it being Rider is because her eyes are there. So where does the info come from that it was Rider draining Shirou's energy?
The fact that the title says: "Shapeless Island" (where Medusa resides)

And the materials in Fate (Break Gorgon seals the magical effects [may be used on Shirou to seal his mind inside Rider's]
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Old 2013-10-24, 20:25   Link #4466
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Originally Posted by TwilightsCall View Post
Whether it's feasible or not depends not so much on who is doing the draining as much as how much they want to drain.

The 'gas leak' incidents were caused by Caster, who was specifically holding back so she could repeatedly drain the same people. By that logic, its not that much of a stretch to say someone who survives a draining for whatever reason will eventually make a full recovery.

Bloodfort is useful especially, since it shows that 1) those who aren't saved literally melt, which would make them definitely unsaveable and 2) those who are saved are hospitalized and able to recover. The reason magi aren't affected by Bloodfort is because of Magic Circuits providing natural resistance to outside magical forces. Since Bloodfort is a boundary field, it uses magic, and so can be resisted. Other means of draining someone of spiritual energy, like Rider drinking blood as we see her do in...Fate route I believe? would probably not be resistable. Though, assuming they don't die of blood loss, a magus would probably be more resistant to soul-death just because of the fact they have more prana to work with.

If I remember correctly, Shirou and Rin do manage to save the girl Rider attacked, so theoretically it would also be possible to save a magus.

For your side question, yes, Caster shows she is clearly able to choose how much she drains from her victims, and Rider is able to drain Shirou in HF without scarring him for life, so I assume she can do the same.


As far as the actual mechanism they use to do it, there are lots. Caster uses magic that covers the entire town, Rider has bloodfort, can do 'funny' things in peoples dreams, and drinks their blood directly. And then there's the Heaven's Feel thing.
Thanks alot (and everyone else who answered). The thing I was planning to write looks like it should be okay, then.
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Old 2013-10-25, 18:44   Link #4467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Well we also have to consider the Servants need prana or mana (I always confuse the terms) so that is what they actually seek out when they “eat” people. Kirei used that room on the church to feed Gilgamesh with energy so he could have power even when their contract was done after the war. So, in a sense, they work like vampires draining blood just that they drain energy and soul. So a powerful mage like Rin should be able to last longer while being drain than a weaker mage or a normal person. In the Blood of Andromeda field some people were two steps away from melting.
Gil mainly just used the orphans to power his NPs, since he had a body of flesh and had no reason to worry about getting energy to exist.

Prana is the mixture of the energy of the body (od) and the mana in the environment that circuits filter into the body to create prana.

Mana is the natural energy of the planet, some magi use it to power rituals. It is the energy that is gathered in the leyline that powers the Grail System.

Also there are some people who actually started to melt in the Bloodfort, they had to get plastic surgery to cover it up, but they survived. This was in UBW True's epilogue iirc.
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Old 2013-10-26, 02:57   Link #4468
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I see, thanks.

But, I was under the impression Gilgamesh didn’t need mana at all. He does say that the power Kirei gives him from the orphans was pointless.
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Old 2013-10-26, 05:38   Link #4469
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To live, yes. To use his mana draining abilities like Enuma Elish, he needs mana. He didn't use it, or have any reason to use it, during those 10 years. Thus, pointless.
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Old 2013-10-26, 16:32   Link #4470
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Gil mainly just used the orphans to power his NPs, since he had a body of flesh and had no reason to worry about getting energy to exist.
No, he did need prana to survive. He just didn't need a master to act as an anchor.

Quote:
Prana is the mixture of the energy of the body (od) and the mana in the environment that circuits filter into the body to create prana.
No, it's not. It's a generic word that refers to both, possibly only when converted by magic circuits. There's no reason it has to be a mix.
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Old 2013-10-26, 17:18   Link #4471
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No, he did need prana to survive. He just didn't need a master to act as an anchor.
Gilgamesh got A+ rank Independent Action when he got a body. This gave him the ability to stay in the world indefinitely without the need of a prana supply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Parameters_and_Skills
A+: Servant can remain in this world indefinitely even without a Master. However, in order to activate his Noble Phantasm, it is necessary to first acquire an extra supply of prana from alternative sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh
Independent
Gilgamesh has a high rank of Independent Action, rank A, allowing him to easily utilize his Noble Phantasms and remain in the world without Tokiomi's backup. He is able to easily ignore his Master's orders, making it possible to stroll around without making his Master aware of his whereabouts. The only way to command him is through the use of Command Spells, but his disposition that does not even contain an ounce of respect for his Master makes utilizing them idly a bad move. Utilizing Noble Phantasms of great power does require backup from his Master.

After being materialized, he gains the rank of A+, completely setting him apart from the rest of the Servants by allowing him to operate without a Master. Exceeding his previous rank, the support of the Master is unnecessary even while unleashing a large amount of magical power. It is an ability that bends the rules, and it allows for his continued materialization as a Servant even after the conclusion of the Holy Grail War for ten years. While he was always able to operate without regard for his Master, gaining a physical body is what allowed for him to remain materialized after the Holy Grail War. While he accepts energy supplied by Kirei from a number of orphans, he claims that the act was unnecessary overall.
If Gilgamesh didn't need a body to stay indefinitely in the world what was the point of him having a body?
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:29   Link #4472
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Everyone I've spoken to about the matter said Gilgamesh drained the orphans so he could use Gate of Babylon repeatedly. Given that he has an actual flesh-and-blood body, I doubt the world would try to remove him from existence for being a spiritual anomaly like other Heroic Spirits.
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Old 2013-10-27, 07:45   Link #4473
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Quote:
No, it's not. It's a generic word that refers to both, possibly only when converted by magic circuits. There's no reason it has to be a mix.
It is all "maryoku" (magical energy) in the end anyway(Nasu doesn't differentiate the words, and prana could have been a fan term made because he didn't)but magi do respirate mana with their circuits, and hold excess magical energy in the body. Life Force (od) the Lesser Source and Mana is the Greater Source.
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Old 2013-10-28, 16:56   Link #4474
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If Gilgamesh didn't need a body to stay indefinitely in the world what was the point of him having a body?
It meant he didn't need a master as an anchor, not that he didn't need prana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
It is all "maryoku" (magical energy) in the end anyway(Nasu doesn't differentiate the words, and prana could have been a fan term made because he didn't)but magi do respirate mana with their circuits, and hold excess magical energy in the body. Life Force (od) the Lesser Source and Mana is the Greater Source.
Yes, I know, I'm not stupid. I have had plenty of discussions on this topic before you screwed me over....
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Old 2013-10-29, 10:59   Link #4475
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
The fact that the title says: "Shapeless Island" (where Medusa resides)

And the materials in Fate (Break Gorgon seals the magical effects [may be used on Shirou to seal his mind inside Rider's]
That's... not very conclusive? Is there something that's not just speculation?

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It meant he didn't need a master as an anchor, not that he didn't need prana.
But if he still needs mana to exist what's even the point of him having a body?
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Old 2013-10-29, 17:29   Link #4476
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But if he still needs mana to exist what's even the point of him having a body?
Normally, a servant cannot survive long without a human or physical object to act as an anchor to the real world. That is why they need a master even if they have an alternate prana source. Having a real body means Gilgamesh doesn't need that. It also probably means he uses less prana.
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Old 2013-10-29, 18:19   Link #4477
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That doesn't seem right. Gilles certainly wasn't going to need a Master once his beastie started eating people.

Last I checked the requirement for a Master was because they were a source of prana to hold them anchored in the world.
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Old 2013-10-29, 21:24   Link #4478
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Normally, when a Servant uses his NP, the Master takes most of the cost. A Servant wouldn't feel drained after using his NP, but his Master would. (This might be wrong, I can't think of any examples where a Master feels tired after their Servant uses their NP)

On the other hand, if the Servant uses his own mana to power his NP (like Rider did in Fate/Zero), they would feel tired afterwards. But can that mana be replenished? I'm assuming that it would simply be replenished (by the Master) at a much slower rate, correct?
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Old 2013-10-30, 01:51   Link #4479
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
That doesn't seem right. Gilles certainly wasn't going to need a Master once his beastie started eating people.

Last I checked the requirement for a Master was because they were a source of prana to hold them anchored in the world.
Providing them mana and anchoring them in the present time are two seperate benefits to having a master. The physical body negates the need for the second, while the first can be dealt with by finding mana via alternate sources.

It might be splitting hairs a bit, but the case you mention is only applicable to the monster itself - Caster would have certainly survived longer than otherwise, assuming he could somehow acquire some mana from the rampage, but it wouldn't be indefinite.

The monster on the other hand, not being a heroic spirit, would be more than capable of surviving indefinitely as long as it had an alternate mana source. This is because the method through which Caster and his Monster were summoned were fundamentally different. In fact, the only reason we have to believe the monster even requires mana in the first place is because Kiritsugu took it for granted that it did. Otherwise, it would probably be dealt with like any other (gigantic tentacle-laden) living thing.

Further evidence that Servants need an anchor is Kojirou. He was so distinctly tied to his anchor - the Ryuudoji temple gate - that he couldn't leave it. I don't think there's any real explanation as to why his case is so severe, but it does exemplify that the need does in fact exist.

Also, consider how long Saber lasted with Shirou not providing her any mana. Then look at one of the first bad ends in Fate - if you refuse to join the Holy Grail War and break your contract with Saber, she says she has at most an hour or two to find a new master - if this was just a mana thing, then it would make no sense as to how she lasted so long with Shirou, who didn't provide her any mana until the Berserker fight in the forest.

Quote:
On the other hand, if the Servant uses his own mana to power his NP (like Rider did in Fate/Zero), they would feel tired afterwards. But can that mana be replenished? I'm assuming that it would simply be replenished (by the Master) at a much slower rate, correct?
It would be replenished at the same "rate" as normal, but the amount of mana required would be astronomically higher. So yes, it can be replenished like that, it'll just take a while - or in Shirou and Saber's case, a night >.>

Even in Rider's case, Waver specifically notices that Rider is using only his own mana, and so takes steps to ensure Rider can pull as much mana as he needs out of him. So it's definitely something that can be replenished, albeit slowly. Again, unless you're Shirou and Saber.
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Old 2013-10-30, 20:24   Link #4480
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That doesn't seem right. Gilles certainly wasn't going to need a Master once his beastie started eating people.
Yes, he did, he still had Ryunnosuke.

Quote:
Last I checked the requirement for a Master was because they were a source of prana to hold them anchored in the world.
No, they act as an actual anchor to the world. That's why Assassin is restricted to the temple (because the temple is his anchor), and why Caster needs Kuzuki even though she can get prana from the world.
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