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Old 2013-11-04, 11:22   Link #1081
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Weiss is my favourite character as well and I was defending her against accusation of racism, but there is no point in liking character if you aren't able admit it's flaws (and "disservice of character, story and show") It's same in RL as well.

Also I said before Blake isn't victim here. Yet apologise would be proper solution as Weiss WAS wrong. Blake can apologise afterward for her own wrongdoing.
She wasn't wrong though. She has nothing to apologize for. She didn't attack or insult Blake. She didn't denigrate Faunas in general. The monkey boy didn't make a good first impression so it's fair to make some assumptions about him. Even after Blake has left the picture, Weiss isn't saying mean things about her behind her back. She is right to be suspicious and distrustful of Blake after hiding who she is for so long and outing herself as a former terrorist.

If Weiss does apologize and say that she's wrong, it'd be the sort of fake apology that husbands give to their wives just to get out of the dog house.

And I don't think anything will happen for the season finale. There's been no build up what so ever. Certainly the tournament seems to be what everyone's plans and goals are working towards. If Monty does it right, the tournament could last the entirety of next season. There is absolutely no need to rush into things.
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Old 2013-11-04, 12:59   Link #1082
Endscape
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Do you think he didn't smell bad? That wasn't exactly a luxury liner he stowed away on. It was a cargo ship. The crew might not even have ready access to shower, let alone a stow-away. If he did smell bad and she did catch wind of him, that's the sort of thing she'd remember about someone.

Not that it would matter if he his spring day fresh. Calling a criminal filthy or dirty is an apt thing to do.
It's quite a stretch to think she called him filthy because he may have smelled bad, but putting that aside, if she had called him a filthy criminal, I'd have no problem, but she called him a 'filthy faunus'. Replace 'faunus' with any other racial term, then perhaps you'd understand how it sounded.
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Old 2013-11-04, 14:34   Link #1083
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Old 2013-11-04, 16:21   Link #1084
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
It's quite a stretch to think she called him filthy because he may have smelled bad, but putting that aside, if she had called him a filthy criminal, I'd have no problem, but she called him a 'filthy faunus'. Replace 'faunus' with any other racial term, then perhaps you'd understand how it sounded.
It doesn't matter how it sounded. He was a Faunas. He was a criminal. He was probably filthy, and not once did Weiss ever speak badly of Faunas in general.

Really, if Blake is so presumably concerned about Faunas being given a bad name, one girl calling a Faunas or a group of Faunas Faunas should be the least of her worries. She should be concerned with Faunas breaking the law and doing bad things. She should be agreeing with Weiss. Why isn't she agreeing with Weiss? Is she trying to spite Weiss? Does she really think that Faunas should be given a pass for committing crimes because they as a group have been mistreated?

If all she wants is a little sympathy, a little understanding she should have, you know, acted like it. She should have tried to explain why she felt the way she did and maybe why some Faunas do the things they do, but she was too overcome by emotion.
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Old 2013-11-04, 16:38   Link #1085
shadow1296
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
It doesn't matter how it sounded. He was a Faunas. He was a criminal. He was probably filthy, and not once did Weiss ever speak badly of Faunas in general.
yes it does matter how it sounded people will get offended if it sounds like a racist remark

Quote:
Really, if Blake is so presumably concerned about Faunas being given a bad name, one girl calling a Faunas or a group of Faunas Faunas should be the least of her worries. She should be concerned with Faunas breaking the law and doing bad things. She should be agreeing with Weiss. Why isn't she agreeing with Weiss? Is she trying to spite Weiss? Does she really think that Faunas should be given a pass for committing crimes because they as a group have been mistreated?
Because it sounded racist and offended her and she's probably had to deal with those kinds of statement all her life to a point she had to hide her fauna heritage, she wasn't trying to spite her, nor does she think Sun should have gotten a free pass

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If all she wants is a little sympathy, a little understanding she should have, you know, acted like it. She should have tried to explain why she felt the way she did and maybe why some Faunas do the things they do, but she was too overcome by emotion.
Yeah because people obviously when hearing something that offends them think and act rationally
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Old 2013-11-04, 17:33   Link #1086
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Ok, give up for real. There is no meaning in wasting time on discussion that is everything but constructive. For now Shadow is only guardian of reason. Good luck. I will be back when I will see opening to strike.
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Old 2013-11-04, 17:48   Link #1087
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
but putting that aside, if she had called him a filthy criminal, I'd have no problem, but she called him a 'filthy faunus'. Replace 'faunus' with any other racial term, then perhaps you'd understand how it sounded.
I recommend giving it up. No matter how many times you say that, nor how many explicit examples you give, some people are incapable of recognizing a racist remark. Lord knows, I've tried many times already. Plus, it seems that there is just a certain segment of the viewing public who will not accept that Weiss could possibly make a racist remark, intentionally or not.

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Originally Posted by shadow1296 View Post
yes it does matter how it sounded people will get offended if it sounds like a racist remark
There again, some people don't seem to realize that, intentionally or not, certain combinations of words are racist, just like certain combinations of words being sexist. If a derogatory word is uttered followed by the name of a race (or a synonym of a race), then the remark is racist. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? It doesn't matter if the intent is racist or not, people will get offended.

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Originally Posted by Tormenk View Post
So anyone wants to talk about something else that's actually fun and interesting?
Yes, please! This whole did she, didn't she, did they, didn't they thing just keeps going round and round and round.

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We should speculate on what's going to go down for the season finale. If Players and Pieces is anything to go by the next episode will start out slow but work up into more and more action scenes. That would be my general take.
Well, we know that the tournament is coming up, though we don't know when they will start the fights. It was presumably on Friday evening that Blake ran off, and three days had past since last we saw Ruby & crew, so it was Monday, I suppose. If students were already arriving for the tournament on Friday, it would make sense (well, to me) that the tournaments would start on Monday, so maybe we'll get to see a tournament fight or two next episode.

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Sun's likely part of Torchwick's group and Penny is perfect to sow even more chaos if she in on it as well. Her robot-act has definitely caused team RWBY to drop their guard. Bonus points if Crimson or even Adam shows up during the attack.
Well, we know that Penny said that she was there to fight in the tournaments (and I believe her), but we don't know why Monkey Boy is there. Yang's claim that he was their competition was, like so many claims being bandied about, just an assumption (unless she as prior undisclosed knowledge of him). Like I said earlier, if either of them are, indeed, students, I doubt that they will be in on Torchwick's evil plan, or current members of White Fang.

If Monkey Boy is solely there as part of Torchwick's evil plan, or to help White Fang exterminate all humananity, then he really is stupid, making a public spectacle of himself, the sort of thing a real criminal would not want to do, calling attention to himself.

Torchwick may have formed an alliance with White Fang, and, if so, Adam may indeed show up. It might make for an interesting battle, and an interesting way to progress the plot if Blake ends up fighting against Adam. That would certainly upset someone's applecart.

If Torchwick shows up to do battle, he will probably have borrowed more of Junior's henchmen (whether or not he's made an alliance with White Fang), but what I'm hoping to see is another battle between Crimson and Glynda.

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And no matter how I slice it, it's just about guaranteed to end with a cliffhanger of some sort.
No doubt, and it will probably be a big one. I just hope I don't wear out my RWBY DVD before the next season rolls around.
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Old 2013-11-04, 18:19   Link #1088
quigonkenny
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Contestant A and Contestant B are in a contest of tag. Contestant A must find one Grimm, one human, and one Faunus in clean, white clothing. Contestant B must find one Grimm, one human, and one Faunus in dark, dirty, mud-covered clothing. Contestant A tracks down and tags two of her quarry and is currently chasing her human target. Contestant B has tagged her human and Grimm, but her other target is nowhere to be seen. Contestant B says, in an exasperated voice, "Where's that filthy Faunus?"

Not racist.

Any other usage of "Where's that filthy Faunus?"

Racist.

Any questions?
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Old 2013-11-04, 18:47   Link #1089
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Contestant A and Contestant B are in a contest of tag. Contestant A must find one Grimm, one human, and one Faunus in clean, white clothing. Contestant B must find one Grimm, one human, and one Faunus in dark, dirty, mud-covered clothing. Contestant A tracks down and tags two of her quarry and is currently chasing her human target. Contestant B has tagged her human and Grimm, but her other target is nowhere to be seen. Contestant B says, in an exasperated voice, "Where's that filthy Faunus?"

Not racist.

Any other usage of "Where's that filthy Faunus?"

Racist.

Any questions?
Filthy can be seen as a metaphor. You could potentially be seen as filthy by doing an action which is judged as very bad.

I don't think this line of thinking will be a good one to deduce if Weiss was racist or not, unless you have a good counter argument.


For this argument to reach a conclusion we should probably define two things first:
- When is it racist to refer to someone by their most easily identifiable feature and when it is not.
- How do we define what is the most identifiable feature of someone.
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Old 2013-11-04, 19:14   Link #1090
FredFriendly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Contestant A and Contestant B are in a contest of tag. Contestant A must find one Grimm, one human, and one Faunus in clean, white clothing. Contestant B must find one Grimm, one human, and one Faunus in dark, dirty, mud-covered clothing. Contestant A tracks down and tags two of her quarry and is currently chasing her human target. Contestant B has tagged her human and Grimm, but her other target is nowhere to be seen. Contestant B says, in an exasperated voice, "Where's that filthy Faunus?"

Not racist.

Any other usage of "Where's that filthy Faunus?"

Racist.

Any questions?
Nice example, but it's probably too complex for some people to grasp.

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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Filthy can be seen as a metaphor. You could potentially be seen as filthy by doing an action which is judged as a very bad action.
Absolutely, like saying, "Where's that filthy bastard who stole my iPhone?" This is not a racist remark.

But if we substitute an ethnic or racial name for "bastard" in the above question, then it does become a racist remark, intentional or not.

Quote:
I don't think this line of thinking will be a good one to deduce if Weiss was racist or not, unless you have a good counter argument.
This may be true, but it does not obviate the fact that she used racial remarks in her tirade.

Quote:
For this argument to reach a conclusion we should probably define two things first:
- When it is racist to refer to someone by their most easily identifiable feature and when it is not.
- How do we define what is the most identifiable feature of someone.
I think those two questions are already well defined in the English speaking world, and I don't really think it would benefit this forum to get deeper into a philosophical argument along those lines.

Being directly blood-related in my immediate family to the three major racial and ethnic groups in the US, I can say with certainty that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to racial remarks.

I'm now done with this topic.
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Old 2013-11-04, 19:25   Link #1091
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by shadow1296 View Post
yes it does matter how it sounded people will get offended if it sounds like a racist remark
It's not Weiss's fault how it sounds to people. It's their fault for not listening to her and hearing what they want to hear.

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Because it sounded racist and offended her and she's probably had to deal with those kinds of statement all her life to a point she had to hide her fauna heritage, she wasn't trying to spite her, nor does she think Sun should have gotten a free pass
And Weiss doesn't even know that Blake is a Faunas. All she knows is that Blake is defending wrong-doing for no apparent reason. And yes, Blake might have been trying to spite Weiss. Weiss is the heiress to the big bad evil company responsible for mistreating Faunas. It's very likely that Blake resents who she is.

Just like how Weiss hates the White Fang, Blake hates Weiss's family.

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Yeah because people obviously when hearing something that offends them think and act rationally
Weiss heard something that offended her and she acted rationally.
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Old 2013-11-04, 19:46   Link #1092
shadow1296
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
It's not Weiss's fault how it sounds to people. It's their fault for not listening to her and hearing what they want to hear.
it doesn't matter if weiss wasn't trying to be racist or not if its sounds racist to people it will be considered racist. even if the rest of the conversation doesn't seem racist



Quote:
And Weiss doesn't even know that Blake is a Faunas. All she knows is that Blake is defending wrong-doing for no apparent reason. And yes, Blake might have been trying to spite Weiss. Weiss is the heiress to the big bad evil company responsible for mistreating Faunas. It's very likely that Blake resents who she is.

Just like how Weiss hates the White Fang, Blake hates Weiss's family.
do we even know if blake hates her family all we know is that blake was apart of the dust train operation she's given no clear reason to show that she hates the schnee family or weiss and no she wasn't defending the wrong doing she was defending a person that weiss doesn't even know and if overly judging him

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Weiss heard something that offended her and she acted rationally.
no she did not otherwise there wouldn't have been that long of a fight if she had
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Old 2013-11-04, 19:47   Link #1093
Endscape
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
It doesn't matter how it sounded. He was a Faunas. He was a criminal. He was probably filthy, and not once did Weiss ever speak badly of Faunas in general.
... Are you serious? If you saw a Mexican person walking down the street and you wanted to ask them the time for example, do you call them by saying "Hey, Mexican, come here."? Of course not. Addressing people by their gender, especially in a negative fashion is indicative of racist thought, not to mention being terribly impolite. Same thing goes for gender.

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
It's not Weiss's fault how it sounds to people. It's their fault for not listening to her and hearing what they want to hear.
That's utter nonsense. If you really believe that, perhaps you should try to educate yourself on this topic.
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Old 2013-11-04, 19:54   Link #1094
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Old 2013-11-04, 20:50   Link #1095
Eisdrache
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Why are people still arguing with CBredbeard? He has a very long history of just trying to argue for the sake of arguing.
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Old 2013-11-04, 21:14   Link #1096
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
... Are you serious? If you saw a Mexican person walking down the street and you wanted to ask them the time for example, do you call them by saying "Hey, Mexican, come here."? Of course not. Addressing people by their gender, especially in a negative fashion is indicative of racist thought, not to mention being terribly impolite. Same thing goes for gender.
Mexican is a nationality.

If he were alone and I had a request of him, I would be polite and say something like "buddy" or "friend". If he were in a crowd and I needed to ask something specific of him, I would say "hey, you, the hispanic" If there were other hispanics, I'd have to be more specific, asking for the hispanic guy wearing the ball cap or the large winding snake tatoo on his left arm with the scar over his right eye.

There is nothing wrong at all referencing someone's race. Not even when used in a negative context. Deriding someone's race as an inherently negative thing is wrong, but that is NOT what happened in the episode.

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That's utter nonsense. If you really believe that, perhaps you should try to educate yourself on this topic.
That is a completely outdated concept. It also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Why are people still arguing with CBredbeard? He has a very long history of just trying to argue for the sake of arguing.
As long as people think Weiss was just as wrong as Blake, I'm going to keep arguing. It doesn't even have to do with Weiss specifically. If it were two complete strangers arguing in the same manner with a similar topic of discussion, it'd change nothing.

I mean, is this just people trying to not take sides by declaring both parties at fault just because a fight took place? That zero tolerance bullshit they're teaching in school now?
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Old 2013-11-04, 22:07   Link #1097
Endscape
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Mexican is a nationality.

If he were alone and I had a request of him, I would be polite and say something like "buddy" or "friend". If he were in a crowd and I needed to ask something specific of him, I would say "hey, you, the hispanic" If there were other hispanics, I'd have to be more specific, asking for the hispanic guy wearing the ball cap or the large winding snake tatoo on his left arm with the scar over his right eye.
For your sake, I hope you don't actually address anyone like that in real life.

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There is nothing wrong at all referencing someone's race. Not even when used in a negative context. Deriding someone's race as an inherently negative thing is wrong, but that is NOT what happened in the episode.
Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened. Why do you think Weiss used the words "Chase that filthy faunus", rather than "Chase after that guy" or something?

Because of the White Fang, she has already negatively stereotyped fauni, so when she sees one that acts in a way that supports her stereotype, she ignores whatever context may be there and immediately jumps to the worst possible conclusion.

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That is a completely outdated concept.
Not really.

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It also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
It does. You seem to be under the belief that Weiss can say whatever pops into her brain without regard for other people and if they happen to be insulted, it's their fault for not being able to read Weiss's mind. That's a pretty privileged viewpoint.
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Old 2013-11-04, 22:23   Link #1098
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
For your sake, I hope you don't actually address anyone like that in real life.
It's better than throwing something at someone.

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Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened. Why do you think Weiss used the words "Chase that filthy faunus", rather than "Chase after that guy" or something?
Because his being a Faunas was his most defining and unique physical characteristic.

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Because of the White Fang, she has already negatively stereotyped fauni, so when she sees one that acts in a way that supports her stereotype, she ignores whatever context may be there and immediately jumps to the worst possible conclusion.
She did not express at any point a negative attitude towards Faunas in general. If you think she does, you will need to wait for future episodes to confirm it.

And she does not ignore whatever context there may be. She is taking things at face value. The given context of what she had witnessed with her own two eyes and the things she'd learned as a child, which is what you're supposed to do until you gather more information. She has no reason whatsoever to give the White Fang the benefit of a doubt. It was Blake's fault for not supplying her with one.

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Not really.
It is. Nowadays special rights are afforded to people based along political lines.

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It does. You seem to be under the belief that Weiss can say whatever pops into her brain without regard for other people and if they happen to be insulted, it's their fault for not being able to read Weiss's mind. That's a pretty privileged viewpoint.
I think I've said it enough, don't you? She didn't say anything that could be misunderstood if someone was actually listening to her. If someone were insulted, it is their fault, because what she said was right and it was spoken clearly. She was specific.
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Old 2013-11-04, 22:57   Link #1099
Endscape
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
It's better than throwing something at someone.
That depends.

Quote:
Because his being a Faunas was his most defining and unique physical characteristic.
If she had simply said "that guy" everyone there would have understood who she was talking about.

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She did not express at any point a negative attitude towards Faunas in general. If you think she does, you will need to wait for future episodes to confirm it.
That fact that she thinks a stowaway will end up as a terrorist one day because of his race is a negative opinion toward his race in general.

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And she does not ignore whatever context there may be. She is taking things at face value.
You do realize this is a contradictory statement, right?

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The given context of what she had witnessed with her own two eyes and the things she'd learned as a child, which is what you're supposed to do until you gather more information. She has no reason whatsoever to give the White Fang the benefit of a doubt. It was Blake's fault for not supplying her with one.
Given context of what she saw? What logic does one use to say that just because someone stows away on a ship, they'll someday become a terrorist? If someone shoplifts, do you say they'll end up as a serial killer one day? What logic does she use to get there?

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It is. Nowadays special rights are afforded to people based along political lines.
And how does that invalidate the subject of that Wikipedia article? Perhaps you should reread it.

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I think I've said it enough, don't you? She didn't say anything that could be misunderstood if someone was actually listening to her. If someone were insulted, it is their fault, because what she said was right and it was spoken clearly. She was specific.
She called the dude "filthy". When Blake pointed out that she had a problem with that and that she should stop calling him a degenerate and that he's an actual person, did she say "No, I was referring to his smell" as you suggest she meant?

No, she made comparisons that him being "filthy" is a self-evident fact. What is there to be misunderstood there?
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Old 2013-11-04, 23:36   Link #1100
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