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View Poll Results: Valvrave the Liberator 2 - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 27 40.30%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 24 35.82%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 14.93%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 8.96%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-11-03, 21:47   Link #121
Sinestra
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I enjoyed the episode but not as much as the previous ones. All the great things that make VV a great show were there but this forced Marie bullshit really struck a cord with me. Hardly any build up, a half assed explanation about her "limiter" a few min of kick ass fighting and POOF shes gone. If they were going for an emotional impact with a side character that had hardly any screen time they failed. This could have been done a lot better and not have felt so cheap and forced. I literally felt nothing at the end when she slumped over. I guess we can say she is brain dead with no memories but theres a chance she might be a coma as well but we will have to wait and see next week. Shouko is not gonna be happy about this and how the hell is anyone gonna explain it too her.
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Old 2013-11-03, 21:51   Link #122
frodonk
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Horizon has a third season green-lit?
no lol but from what I've read somewhere around here sunrise is (or was) working on VVV so they can't make any progress on horizon s3 because of that.

or maybe those 2 series have nothing to do with each other and I'm just hoping that there are no horizon s3 announcements yet because they're too busy with VVV
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Old 2013-11-03, 21:56   Link #123
Irenesharda
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Originally Posted by Piesum View Post
I think it could work if the amount of runes being taken was very small..like their memories of when they were a baby/toddler.. it doesn't really make sense for the valvraves to be as powerful as they are if they are gathering such small amounts of runes.. but maybe the longer a memory is stored, the more powerful it is? (Although I don't really have much of a basis for this idea).

I still think my theory about the body switching is the most sound so far though haha.
I actually question the differences in the how many runes are required to power the Valvrave between Haruto and Marie, there must be more to it than just this "limiter". The rate of consumption is completely different.

Marie lost a memory in just starting the system up, and lost two years worth in only about 10 to 15 minutes of battle time. She also lost 14 years of memories in only the 3 years she was a test pilot, and since she was just connected to the engine and not the entire structure, she never even fought with it. Yet, the engine took that many runes to run.

Haruto hasn't visibly gathered runes that many times, 5-6 times at most. Yet, his few times of gathering runes somehow has powered all FIVE Valvraves this entire time and he has not lost any memories, neither have all the other pilots, and interestingly, neither have any of Haruto's victims. For Pino to now be able to power all 5 with only such a small amount of runes, must mean that they clearly greatly lowered the rate of consumption between him and when Marie was the pilot.

However, if they worked out all the kinks and made it so the Valvraves don't need to consume so many runes, then why when Marie gets back in the pilot's chair, the mech goes back to consuming runes like they're water?

It has to be something more than just Marie and her broken limiter. It must be something about the kind of runes Haruto provides in comparison to Marie's. Despite the fact that they think that memories are the richest source of runes, there must be something else that can be sustained in small amounts and still last for a much longer amount of time.
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Old 2013-11-04, 14:40   Link #124
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Here's hoping that when Valvrave makes it into Super Robot Wars (which seems pretty inevitable) they make Marie saveable.
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Old 2013-11-04, 14:46   Link #125
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^ it would still be non-canon to the actual series.
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Old 2013-11-04, 16:13   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
I actually question the differences in the how many runes are required to power the Valvrave between Haruto and Marie, there must be more to it than just this "limiter". The rate of consumption is completely different.

Marie lost a memory in just starting the system up, and lost two years worth in only about 10 to 15 minutes of battle time. She also lost 14 years of memories in only the 3 years she was a test pilot, and since she was just connected to the engine and not the entire structure, she never even fought with it. Yet, the engine took that many runes to run.

Haruto hasn't visibly gathered runes that many times, 5-6 times at most. Yet, his few times of gathering runes somehow has powered all FIVE Valvraves this entire time and he has not lost any memories, neither have all the other pilots, and interestingly, neither have any of Haruto's victims. For Pino to now be able to power all 5 with only such a small amount of runes, must mean that they clearly greatly lowered the rate of consumption between him and when Marie was the pilot.

However, if they worked out all the kinks and made it so the Valvraves don't need to consume so many runes, then why when Marie gets back in the pilot's chair, the mech goes back to consuming runes like they're water?

It has to be something more than just Marie and her broken limiter. It must be something about the kind of runes Haruto provides in comparison to Marie's. Despite the fact that they think that memories are the richest source of runes, there must be something else that can be sustained in small amounts and still last for a much longer amount of time.
Maybe it's not the Valvrave that absorbs an insane amount of runes to operate, but Marie who continuously pours runes into the Valvrave regardless of activity level, her limiter being similar to a water tap, like how Ichigo's spiritual energy went out of control when he first consciously released his power. In Marie's case, she has no control (subconsciously or consciously) over retaining her runes when piloting, while the Valvrave has no upper limit to how much runes it consumes when operating.
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Old 2013-11-04, 16:47   Link #127
Irenesharda
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Maybe it's not the Valvrave that absorbs an insane amount of runes to operate, but Marie who continuously pours runes into the Valvrave regardless of activity level, her limiter being similar to a water tap, like how Ichigo's spiritual energy went out of control when he first consciously released his power. In Marie's case, she has no control (subconsciously or consciously) over retaining her runes when piloting, while the Valvrave has no upper limit to how much runes it consumes when operating.
That actually could work, however it didn't sound that way when Pino first told Marie that she had used her memory to power up the machine. She didn't warn her until much later.

However, if this is true, then really Marie was wasting runes, like pouring water into an overflowing cup. Somehow there would be no limit on herself for how much she poured out. That is truly sad, because that means she gave away a lot of those memories for nothing.

However there still has to be something else, considering Haruto, and his lack of amnesia. The rate is still to high, even considering Marie was emptying herself of far more runes than was necessary.
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Old 2013-11-04, 17:27   Link #128
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^ I wouldn't go as far to say they were unnecessary, because it is the return of the red light that's tangible and acts as both a shield, and a weapon. That hasn't been seen since the first episode. Cain did something similar by making an entire body out of those light particles. Marie was exerting a large amount of power than the norm Haruto uses.
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Old 2013-11-04, 17:42   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
It has to be something more than just Marie and her broken limiter. It must be something about the kind of runes Haruto provides in comparison to Marie's. Despite the fact that they think that memories are the richest source of runes, there must be something else that can be sustained in small amounts and still last for a much longer amount of time.

I think this just might be it. Maybe the body jacking isn't to gather a second set of memories after all, maybe the runes are coming from another source that gives the valvrave less power, but lasts longer.
That would also explain why when he couldn't take it any longer Haruto attacked Saki. (For the record I see it as both of them were violated..because his real self didn't want to do that either, but that's another topic) Runes are supposedly the smallest particles of information though..so I'm just wondering what type of information they mean. Maybe biological information is an option, as well as memories.
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Old 2013-11-04, 18:06   Link #130
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^ I wouldn't go as far to say they were unnecessary, because it is the return of the red light that's tangible and acts as both a shield, and a weapon. That hasn't been seen since the first episode. Cain did something similar by making an entire body out of those light particles. Marie was exerting a large amount of power than the norm Haruto uses.
You could see how many runes were just spilling off the thing, VVV1 might have been operating overtime, but if we go by the mentioned theory then she was still really pushing in more runes than could possibly be necessary in comparison with Haruto who loses next to nothing and still powers 5 mechs that function only a couple levels weaker.

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I think this just might be it. Maybe the body jacking isn't to gather a second set of memories after all, maybe the runes are coming from another source that gives the valvrave less power, but lasts longer.
That would also explain why when he couldn't take it any longer Haruto attacked Saki. (For the record I see it as both of them were violated..because his real self didn't want to do that either, but that's another topic) Runes are supposedly the smallest particles of information though..so I'm just wondering what type of information they mean. Maybe biological information is an option, as well as memories.
They've asserted that DNA can function as runes as well. So yes it can be biological information as well. If it is DNA that's more efficient then memories, it would make sense. DNA is long when unfolded and quite strong for a molecule. It would also give reason to the Haruto and Saki incident, if there was a need for different combinations of genetic material. There's also plenty of it in the body and the bodies of others.
This whole thing with genes being runes could also answer the question of why the future prince resembles both Haruto and L-elf.
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Old 2013-11-04, 18:22   Link #131
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^ But for DNA, you only need one strand to have enough. How do you lose DNA though, how does it detriment the person or how do you run out of it? If it was blood, it would make sense. Runes are information particles., so everything is basically comprised of them. I would theorize Haruto has lost his natural lifespan, and can only survive on runes now. It would be quite the twist, if true. He can't go back to being human or he'll die.
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Old 2013-11-04, 20:03   Link #132
Irenesharda
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^ But for DNA, you only need one strand to have enough. How do you lose DNA though, how does it detriment the person or how do you run out of it? If it was blood, it would make sense. Runes are information particles., so everything is basically comprised of them. I would theorize Haruto has lost his natural lifespan, and can only survive on runes now. It would be quite the twist, if true. He can't go back to being human or he'll die.
Well, there are the haploid chromosomes that require two sets to become the normal genome, such as what happens when a baby is created. I don't know how that would fit in yet, but it's a possibility.
You recreate your DNA every time your cells preform mitosis (or meiosis for the gametes), however, there has been research and many a sci-fi and anime plot line, where telomeres (which are connected to ageing) can get damaged and/or mutated over time and cause death eventually, because without them, the chromosomes and thus the DNA can unravel and become frayed and eventually fall apart. This condition was a key point near the end of GK Majestic Prince and in The Unlimited.

In depends on how much DNA was consumed, for it to be a detriment, since again, the cells simply copy and divide. However, the whole "him only being able to survive as a Magius" would make sense if they bring in the whole telomeres angle, since in many a sci-fi anime they play with the fact that the manipulation of the telomeres can be the key to immortal life. So, if DNA are runes, then that could possibly be the key to why the Magius live so long. However, if they were to stop, the DNA would end up fraying and falling apart.

I'm starting to think that Marie's physical body is okay, but her brain is dead, this would stop her from being able to breath and her heart from beating, but since the body simply regenerates, any damage caused by lack of oxygen or circulating blood would heal, but it wouldn't prevent the fact that she is by all other definitions, dead.
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Old 2013-11-04, 21:24   Link #133
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^ That's what I mean in the way his blood or actual cells are being taken. Then again, if his telomeres are being mutated or damaged, the runes aren't related to DNA at all, since you stop aging when you become a Magius, well appearance wise anyway.

Runes are anything that comprises information. DNA is an example. Things intangible like memories as seen with Marie, emotions, and the soul even apply. I don't want to assume that memories are everything the Valvrave takes, but I also don't want to assume the opposite either. L-elf said the greatest source of runes are people's memories, but he is just as much a learner as Haruto, when it comes to Magius and the Valvraves. However, we know Haruto and the others aren't suffering the same thing Marie did, yet we know Marie had a special ailment in which her limiter broke. The problem seemed to happen from the testing, yet the problem seems to persist within the person rather than the machine.

All injuries are healed using runes as well. Since Marie is drained, her body will cease healing as well. Well, I hope we gain more insight from the talk with Pino in the next episode. I just hope Haruto won't take his anger out on her.
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Old 2013-11-04, 23:42   Link #134
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On another note, did anyone notice the slight differences between L-elf and A-drei's memory on the death of their royalist teammate? I sure didn't until someone matched up this picture for me:



Do you think this was simply a continuity mistake, or is there some significance to the fact that the two have similar stories, but incorrect details? If one of the boys remembers the incident in another different but similar way, we'll know for sure.

I find the whole story fishy to a degree. We know that A-drei is a royalist as well, and it's possible some of the others on the team, like H-neun and L-elf might have been too. So, why did they pick out this one boy as the scapegoat? Also, that boy seems content with his death? Do you think that their entire team was made of royalists and the superiors began to suspect, they "secretly" killed one of their own to pull suspicion off the group?

I mean, if the crime is as bad as A-drei put it, then why would he be telling a boy ( who he has no reason NOT to think would tell his superiors) about it, instead of keeping it secret, as he indicates, it was supposed to be? The only reason I can think of , is that he knows that the superiors know, and they know that he knows they know, but no one speaks of it.

However, these inconsistencies in the two's stories make me think that perhaps the guy might not even be dead? However, they covered it up in some way?
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Old 2013-11-05, 00:00   Link #135
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The smile he gave did come off as him showing he was alright with it. Maybe they felt that the group was under suspicion. He also looked older than the rest and more composed than X-Eins, A-Drei, H-Neun and Q-Vier, they looked scared and on the verge of tears. I think he elected to be the scapegoat like you said.

As for the inconsistencies, I really don't know. Hopefully, it's not just the production team slipping up and there's more to this.
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Old 2013-11-05, 00:13   Link #136
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Maybe the rest of the group was brainwashed (only person who dodged it was L-elf) which is why L-elf decided to not work with A-drei and would explain the inconsistencies in their flashbacks.
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Old 2013-11-05, 00:21   Link #137
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Since this season is supposed to highlight L-elf's past, this could definitely be tied to something major. This would be different recollections of how events unfolded, arguing the validity of which story is correct. A-drei as the "noble person" he is may soften up what actually happened in order to cope. No reason to why anyone should be brainwashed to think it happened differently. However, this could simply be two different people. That guy on the left could have been a deserter trying to escape, and they happened to kill him in a similar area.
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Old 2013-11-05, 00:41   Link #138
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The brainwash idea isn't bad. We know we've got some secret people going around that know how to manipulate runes such as memories, so it's not off the mark.

Now, with L-elf's memories, the boy fell face forward and was stabbed. In A-drei's memory, he was shot once and fell backwards. L-elf was the perpetrator on both accounts. One instance is slightly more brutal than the other, but also, could it go back to L-elf's comment that a gun would give away your position, where as a knife is silent? That comment makes me think that L-elf's memory is the real one, especially as this was supposed to be a secret. L-elf would have killed him with the weapon that wouldn't have alerted others. Also, if the boy fell on his face rather than his back, then, his front was away from his killer, and in that case, it's possible he was trying to run away, rather than contently going along with it as A-drei remembers?

However then, who changed A-drei's memories, and why? And like Meltyred said, could this be the reason that L-elf chose not to let A-drei in on his plans?
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Old 2013-11-05, 08:32   Link #139
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Marie is maybe one of my favorite pilot in Sunrise works...
She got perfect personality, perfect past... with beautiful pilot skills...

I still don't believe that she's dead... She just become an empty doll
Maybe one or two miracle can cure her back? like if Akira or Shoko tried to nurse her and starting to build new memories?

We already lost a lovable character in early episode (still hope Marie will appear in future episodes)... I wonder how many real death will occur in upcoming episode

A-drei maybe is the leader-type with more heart and emotion than other members
that's why he's likeable

I think we just forgot about Rukino.... Is she taken away to Dorsian?
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Old 2013-11-05, 10:47   Link #140
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I think we just forgot about Rukino.... Is she taken away to Dorsian?
That is not until she put up a decent fight and get Carmilla trashed like in preview.
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