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Old 2013-11-04, 12:02   Link #4501
Sansker
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He looks like a very nasty person even without the crazy shit he pulls on Fate/Stay Night. The difference is that first he is just an asshole then he becomes an arrogant near mass murder crazy idiot. Shinji doesn’t get any sympathy from me because while his background is indeed sad he shows the kind of man he is when he gets power, so really I don’t care how he dies in any route.
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Old 2013-11-04, 14:59   Link #4502
DaItalianFish
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
He looks like a very nasty person even without the crazy shit he pulls on Fate/Stay Night. The difference is that first he is just an asshole then he becomes an arrogant near mass murder crazy idiot. Shinji doesn’t get any sympathy from me because while his background is indeed sad he shows the kind of man he is when he gets power, so really I don’t care how he dies in any route.
But the 'man he is' is a direct result of his upbringing. I know this may be pushing it, but if you can feel bad for Sakura, there should be at least some pity of Shinji.

Spoiler:


Shinji and Sakura are quite alike. They were both victims of a horrible childhood. Yet for some reason people seem to think it is okay to forgive Sakura, but Shinji is just some loser who deserves anything he got. (not really just talking about you btw, talking about the general opinion of Shinji)
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Old 2013-11-04, 15:22   Link #4503
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
But the 'man he is' is a direct result of his upbringing. I know this may be pushing it, but if you can feel bad for Sakura, there should be at least some pity of Shinji.

Spoiler:


Shinji and Sakura are quite alike. They were both victims of a horrible childhood. Yet for some reason people seem to think it is okay to forgive Sakura, but Shinji is just some loser who deserves anything he got. (not really just talking about you btw, talking about the general opinion of Shinji)
Spoiler for Sakura and Shinji:
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Old 2013-11-04, 17:29   Link #4504
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Spoiler for Sakura and Shinji:
Spoiler:


Again, not saying that Shinji is completely blameless for his actions. He still did some pretty nasty things, and a sad past doesn't make up for that. I just think that saying he deserved death is pretty unfair.
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Old 2013-11-04, 18:18   Link #4505
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As long as it's not involving the Holy Grail, Shinji will be friendly. If not, he'll be evil crap.
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Old 2013-11-04, 19:24   Link #4506
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Spoiler:


Again, not saying that Shinji is completely blameless for his actions. He still did some pretty nasty things, and a sad past doesn't make up for that. I just think that saying he deserved death is pretty unfair.
Spoiler for Sakura:
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Last edited by cyberdemon; 2013-11-04 at 19:35.
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Old 2013-11-04, 20:52   Link #4507
DaItalianFish
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Spoiler for Sakura:
Spoiler:


(the coherency of my post might be not that great, wrote this while I was raiding in WoW)
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Old 2013-11-05, 21:17   Link #4508
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
I suppose this is more of a subjective question, so I don't know if it belongs here. What are your guy's thoughts on Shinji? Do you believe his actions are inexcusable? Do you believe that he deserved the things that happen to him in Fate/UBW/Heaven's Feel?

Personally, I don't think he is character that is completely deserving of hate like most make him out to be.

Spoiler:


The reason I'm asking this is because for the chapter I'm working on for my fan fiction I sorta go into this, and I just want to hear peoples thoughts on him before I go ahead with it. I know alot of people simply hate the guy, but I just find it hard to, knowing his background.
I think his actions are definitely inexcuseable and he did deserve what he got, but I also do agree with most of what you said. He is as he is because of the way he was brought up.

Personally, I think Shinji is redeemable (unlike Zouken), but I think he would need to do a hell of a lot to earn that redemption. At very least, he needs to save his sister or die trying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Anything that's not "Holy Grail War" related, he's a tolerable guy.
Tell that to Sakura....

And, no, he's still a dick even to normal people.

Quote:
Even Shirou became friends with him (in Fate/Extra, his personality shows: aka not really much of a bad guy).
Well, Shirou became friends with him because Shinji never used to be quite so bad, and because Shirou is somewhat oblivious. Even so, they are very much estranged after Shirou saw his true nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
But the 'man he is' is a direct result of his upbringing. I know this may be pushing it, but if you can feel bad for Sakura, there should be at least some pity of Shinji.

Spoiler:


Shinji and Sakura are quite alike. They were both victims of a horrible childhood. Yet for some reason people seem to think it is okay to forgive Sakura, but Shinji is just some loser who deserves anything he got. (not really just talking about you btw, talking about the general opinion of Shinji)
Sorry, but this is a horrendous misinterpretation of Sakura's situation.

Spoiler:


The fundamental difference between the two is that, whilst they both have negative thoughts in response to their circumstances, Sakura does not act on those thoughts in normal situations. Shinji on the other hand does.

That is why Sakura is easily-forgiven and Shinji is much less so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Spoiler:


(the coherency of my post might be not that great, wrote this while I was raiding in WoW)
Thinking something is not wrong. Everyone has negative thoughts, especially abuse victims. Doing it is wrong, unless you are not sane at the time.

Spoiler:


As a result, Sakura is pretty much blameless for the events of HF, whereas Shinji is not blameless for how he acted. I do think Shinji can be redeemed, but I don't think it is easy. He needs to atone for everything he did to Sakura. Sakura, conversely, doesn't really need to atone for anything because she never really consciously did anything.

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-11-05, 22:33   Link #4509
DaItalianFish
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
-snip-

I may have overstated her blame, but I would not say she is completely blameless.

Spoiler:


I do like your idea of Shinji atoning for his actions.

Last edited by DaItalianFish; 2013-11-05 at 22:46.
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Old 2013-11-06, 08:12   Link #4510
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
I may have overstated her blame, but I would not say she is completely blameless.

Spoiler:


I do like your idea of Shinji atoning for his actions.
Again, you are completely and utterly wrong.

Spoiler:


Go play the game again, because you clearly have not read HF properly.
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Old 2013-11-06, 08:52   Link #4511
DaItalianFish
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Again, you are completely and utterly wrong.

Spoiler:


Go play the game again, because you clearly have not read HF properly.
Spoiler:


I'm not going to further this simply because I know you won't agree with me. The general consensus on /a/ is that Sakura is not completely blameless for her actions. I've given evidence from the novel itself that Sakura was Sakura and not being controlled, so feel free to give evidence otherwise.
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Old 2013-11-06, 10:53   Link #4512
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Spoiler:


I'm not going to further this simply because I know you won't agree with me. The general consensus on /a/ is that Sakura is not completely blameless for her actions. I've given evidence from the novel itself that Sakura was Sakura and not being controlled, so feel free to give evidence otherwise.
Spoiler for Sakura:
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Old 2013-11-06, 12:56   Link #4513
DaItalianFish
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Spoiler for Sakura:
Again, no.

Spoiler:


The major point I'm trying to get across is the difference between control and influence. Once you understand that, you'll understand that Sakura is not completely innocent.
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Old 2013-11-06, 13:08   Link #4514
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Again, no.

Spoiler:


The major point I'm trying to get across is the difference between control and influence. Once you understand that, you'll understand that Sakura is not completely innocent.
Spoiler for Shinji and Sakura:
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Old 2013-11-06, 13:22   Link #4515
DaItalianFish
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Spoiler for Shinji and Sakura:
Spoiler:


At this point we might as well agree to disagree. It is clear that both (you and Cherry_Lover) believe you are right, and I believe I am right. No amount of arguing is going to change that. All we are doing now is restating the same arguments over and over again.
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Old 2013-11-06, 13:37   Link #4516
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Spoiler:


At this point we might as well agree to disagree. It is clear that both (you and Cherry_Lover) believe you are right, and I believe I am right. No amount of arguing is going to change that. All we are doing now is restating the same arguments over and over again.
Spoiler for Angra Mainyu:
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Old 2013-11-06, 14:29   Link #4517
DaItalianFish
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Spoiler for Angra Mainyu:
Spoiler:


But still, this is getting us nowhere...
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Old 2013-11-06, 21:20   Link #4518
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:



Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:


Quote:
I'm not going to further this simply because I know you won't agree with me. The general consensus on /a/ is that Sakura is not completely blameless for her actions. I've given evidence from the novel itself that Sakura was Sakura and not being controlled, so feel free to give evidence otherwise.
Right, because /a/ is so reliable....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Again, no.

Spoiler:


The major point I'm trying to get across is the difference between control and influence. Once you understand that, you'll understand that Sakura is not completely innocent.
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaItalianFish View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:



Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-11-07, 01:53   Link #4519
Sansker
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I am confuse. Wasn't the original question about Shinji?
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Old 2013-11-07, 05:24   Link #4520
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TLR:

Sakura -
Spoiler for Sakura:


Shinji -
Spoiler for Shinji:


All in all Matou family is one tragic family indeed,
Spoiler for Reason why:
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