AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-11-04, 01:00   Link #1781
iamadooddood
NOM.
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Singapore
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I have already said in an early post that maybe we should go be to using SDO only and not have a necklace match. In fact, you quoted this very same post later and chose to ignore my comment...?
Might as well scrap the necklace matches altogether since it's clear from recent results that by using SDO the matches are getting predictable (highest SDO = strongest), which defeats the purpose of spicing up matches that the necklace matches were for in the first place.

If you truly want to spice up the matches, the only way is by a fair showdown, and nothing more. The way SDO does it now can hardly be called fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Now you're getting to meat of the discussion. Triple_R doesn't want SDO to have any influence in the necklace match. What we really want to discuss, however, is perhaps a system that's not easy to manipulate to be applied to the necklace match, but still understandable to people without stat majors. I'm glad someone knows what we're trying for.
I don't really see much problem with manipulating if the fanbase is that dedicated, actually. Legit upsets in real life cause people to look at the underdog winner in awe, not with hatred. Of course, I know others do see a problem, so best way to go about doing it is have others accept that said dedication is genuine, and it should be fine. If they can keep it up consistently then it'll be acceptable for them since those dedicated fans have proven it to be genuine.

Due to the complexity of SDO, manipulating SDO has had a lot more repercussions than manipulating VD alone. The effect of manipulating SDO by a certain successful fanbase ends up being greater than manipulating things like VD by the same fanbase. In the end, the manipulation of SDO has been proven to be at least as damaging, if not more so, than that of VD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
This is false. SDO was created as a tiebreaker to go before VF. Then the necklace match was created, and SDO was applied to encourage people to not ignore the regular season matches.
OK, good. Now I know everything. Hopefully.

How about setting criteria as to who can vote in necklace matches? You can only vote for characters you have voted at least once for in the period. Or you must have cast a total of X votes in that period or something. Or both.

Low vote count (where people don't vote for her) is not always a bad thing. It shows that the girl in question is weak, and that just by being in the running for ISML alone, she's punching above her weight. Nothing wrong about that. And if she does pull off an upset? Nothing wrong with people liking the underdog, right? "An underdog that needs protection = moe" is legit.

Also, there are also those who do not ignore the regular season matches. It's just that, they manipulate the matches. If you encourage people to not ignore regular season matches, these guys will be sure to show up, sometimes regardless of the encouragement or lack thereof, but more likely to spite SDO. Which one will you prefer? (In short, any rule made to encourage people to vote regularly causes the tournament to get more susceptible to manipulation. Before I go on, I'd like to verify this with you.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Another thing I have to tell you is that when we created the rules, we have considered many things, including talking to death the possibility of using SDO as eligibility only. The staff unanimously agrees that this watered down definition of a period necklace is not what we're aiming for when we created the necklace.
Very well. I'll need the reiteration of the definition of a "period necklace", as well as the mechanism of the SDO (so that I can find its flaws) before I can truly formulate anything.

Also, seeing that you have a B.S. in Mathematics (though not in pure Statistics, it'll have to do; my university has separate degrees for Pure Mathematics, Applied Mathematics and Statistics lol), what is the median SDO handicap due to seeding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Please don't assume you know how ISML staff works. It's basically maglor playing devil's advocate for everything. While this makes discussions very long, it means they are thought out.
Then, a question. Does the ISML staff know how real-life leagues and competitions work? Because while I now understand your rationales behind your decisions (including SDO), it seems like actual knowledge in how real-life leagues and competitions work is lacking, if RegalStar's posts are of any indication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konakaga View Post
With the 2 divisions, going back to just purely SDO would be even worse than it was before .
OTOH, SDO + 1-on-1 is perfectly fine, yes? SDO only needs to determine who gets to participate in the 1-on-1.

Speaking of which, I'd prefer having an even number instead of the current 7 contestants for a necklace match.
__________________
When life gives you lemons... enjoy reading them.

Anime Saimoe Tournament 2013 is screwed up. Everyone's argument is invalid.
iamadooddood is offline  
Old 2013-11-04, 01:52   Link #1782
Konakaga
Yuri Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: FL, USA
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to Konakaga Send a message via Skype™ to Konakaga
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
OTOH, SDO + 1-on-1 is perfectly fine, yes? SDO only needs to determine who gets to participate in the 1-on-1.
I could see a 1 on 1 between the highest SDO of each division work for the necklace match, but the one with more SDO winning by default with how divisions are split would be quite unfair.
__________________
Haruka & Yuu - Sakura TrickAvatar & Sig by TheEroKing
MAL(KagamiHiiragi)
Konakaga is offline  
Old 2013-11-04, 02:14   Link #1783
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konakaga View Post
I could see a 1 on 1 between the highest SDO of each division work for the necklace match, but the one with more SDO winning by default with how divisions are split would be quite unfair.
So, to clarify...

For Aquamarine, there would be an 1 on 1 Necklace match between the Nova girl with the highest SDO for the Aquamarine period, and the Stella girl with the highest SDO for the Aquamarine period. The match itself would be determined strictly by vote totals. The winner of the Aquamarine Necklace is then prevented from taking part in future Necklace matches for the same Calender year.

For future periods, there would be 1 on 1 Necklace match between the Nova girl with the highest SDO for the period who hasn't won a Necklace yet, and the Stella girl with the highest SDO for the period who hasn't won a Necklace yet.


Hhhmmm...

Well, if you can't even get into the Necklace match without having the very best period performance of every girl in your division (who hasn't won a Necklace yet), then surely that alone is ensuring that the Necklace greatly honors/reflects period performance. It would also motivate people to go totally all-out for their favorite girls in each period, so long as she has a chance at getting the highest SDO for that period. If anything, it would make Regular Season matches even more important than what they are right now.

The Necklace match itself would be between two competitors in two entirely separate divisions. So that likely gives the match at least a touch of unpredictability. It would also give a little hint, but not necessarily a big hint, to how Nova compares to Stella at regular checkpoints throughout the year. I would think that would appeal to stats-watchers. The match itself would be determined strictly by vote totals, which would make it appeal greatly to those who dislike handicaps in matches (including myself, of course).

Well, though I might have missed something, it does look to me like this could be the ultimate compromise position in the ongoing SDO debate. I think this idea could really give us the best of all worlds.


I would be supportive of it, under the specifics stated above.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2013-11-04, 06:03   Link #1784
iamadooddood
NOM.
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Singapore
Age: 21
OK, that's one down.

However, the fact that SDO makes results easily manipulated still hasn't changed.

For this, I propose that we bring back VD and VF — but with a twist.

To encourage regular voting, we could use the geometric mean instead of the arithmetic mean so that not only each regular vote counts more, the results would be less manipulatable by a single faction as compared to using the arithmetic mean. So someone with, say, 6250 votes in one match and 4000 votes in another, will result in a geometric mean of 5000 votes for each match since √(6250*4000) = 5000 (wins and losses are counted separately). If it's still too manipulatable we can switch to negative power means such as the harmonic mean (-1 power), which may "mitigate the influence of large outliers and increase the influence of small values", said large outliers being due to manipulation of SDO as well as a lack of regular voting. Note that this dampening effect will reduce manipulation of results for as well as results against. However, the arithmetic mean should be kept for the postseason since manipulation does not affect the year's overall score nearly as much so the arithmetic mean is fairer there (not to mention that if it does, it should count as regular voting anyway). (EDIT: Also, using the arithmetic mean here would more accurately reflect their overall strength over the entire season than the geometric mean or any negative power mean.)

Wins still matter, but I suggest 2-1-0 is better than the current system we have now which favours narrow wins over crushing wins (or even draws). The greater the difference, the lower the SDO becomes (from what I saw in the ISML forum's SDO thread, at least), which I hardly find fair, and it dampens the league. This should be changed to crushing defeats resulting in a higher SDO instead, so as to balance out the unfairness due to seeding of matches. Just as those who win against tough opponents be rewarded, so should those who win extremely convincingly against weaker opponents. This is only fair.
__________________
When life gives you lemons... enjoy reading them.

Anime Saimoe Tournament 2013 is screwed up. Everyone's argument is invalid.

Last edited by iamadooddood; 2013-11-05 at 12:45.
iamadooddood is offline  
Old 2013-11-04, 08:57   Link #1785
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post

Wins still matter, but I suggest 2-1-0 is better than the current system we have now which favours narrow wins over crushing wins (or even draws). The greater the difference, the lower the SDO becomes (from what I saw in the ISML forum's SDO thread, at least), which I hardly find fair, and it dampens the league. This should be changed to crushing defeats resulting in a higher SDO instead, so as to balance out the unfairness due to seeding of matches. Just as those who win against tough opponents be rewarded, so should those who win extremely convincingly against weaker opponents. This is only fair.
I agree. Rewarding girls for crushing victories would also encourage more voters to show up even for predictably lop-sided matches favoring their girl. If the aim is to get voters to vote as often as possible, then your idea is a very good one, in my opinion.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 14:09   Link #1786
wontaek
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
OK, that's one down.

However, the fact that SDO makes results easily manipulated still hasn't changed.

For this, I propose that we bring back VD and VF — but with a twist.
I don't quite understand the reasoning for this. Whatever the mean you use, VD and VF are MUCH easier to manipulate compared to SDO. To effect SDO, you have to make your girl win somehow. This means only the matches where the the winner is expected to get less than 54% of the votes are susceptible to any manipulation. For VD or VF, you don't have to change the winner to manipulate the results. All you have to do is to keep stuffing the votes for your faction's choice. If you consistently bring in 100 additional votes for your faction's choice, no matter which mean you use, you will raise your character's chance by 100/(average voter size) . In using VD and VF, what would be as important as winning,, perhaps even more important when you consider the ease to bring this about, would be to make sure you pile on your votes in matches your character is likely to win = Making sure your character wins the match by margin of 80 to 20 instead of 70 to 30. Again check the records. Our data from 2008 shows how easily group of merely 50 voters can manipulate the necklace standing in simple VD or VF scheme. Even now, if you can reliably control mere 5% of the voters, you can easily make any tier 1 girl of your choice win the necklace, since who your choice faces won't matter at all. With SDO scheme, even controlling 10% of the voters won't be enough to let your Tier 1 girl win the necklace for sure. 2009 Rozen Meister had to get 20+% voters to cooperate with him to control the necklace in SDO scheme. This means 2000+ voters now days, and even if you can get this many people to work with you, with current SDO + Necklace group round ( where we may get more than 14,000 voters ) you still aren't guaranteed your girl can win barring some luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I agree. Rewarding girls for crushing victories would also encourage more voters to show up even for predictably lop-sided matches favoring their girl. If the aim is to get voters to vote as often as possible, then your idea is a very good one, in my opinion.
I think records from many professional sports disputes your idea. Having some dominant teams display their dominance do boost ticket sales and TV ratings in the short run, but the overall sales and ratings number for the entire league usually decline if this dominance is kept up for more than a month. Parity among league teams usually results in steady growth of revenues for most of the teams in the league, thus much better in the long run. It also makes occasional flashes of dominance to be much bigger sale, provided that this dominance don't last too long. Translating this to ISML, I believe we are much better served when even the weakest contestant enjoys sizable fan base.

Right now, I think biggest problem ISML has is the dominance of class of 2011 = those who were in 2011 ISML post season. All but one of ISML tiara winner can be found in 2011 ISML post season list. When you have small number of characters dominating the league, you make it very susceptible for all kinds of manipulation. One of my aim when designing a system for ISML is how much it can promote diversity. If we have very diverse groups of voters, and if we have many groups for many different characters, it becomes hard for any single group to taint the record, and we would be less susceptible for a deflation, like the one we saw when Rozen faction left in 2009 postseason . Therefore, I see much more reason to encourage the weaker character's fan base to come out and vote compared to stronger character's fan base. The long term health of ISML depends little bit more on what the losing side's voters will do, compared to what the winning side may do. ( The actions of winning side's voters are important as well. It just is that losing side voters are more likely to react in negative way, which often is of greater concern for the league, overall. ) In these aspects, rewarding a girl for crushing victory more than normal victory is likely to be more harmful than good.

------------------------------------

Most important of all,

let's see what will happen in male+Touhou tournament where we don't have to worry about SDO nor VD. The first day match has been posted. ( http://internationalsaimoe.com/voting/ ) I'm sure all of you concerned with SDO can think up good tests to prove your point on what the results will be. I encourage any models and analysis strategy, provided that these models and analysis scheme is made known before the match starts. True test of models and hypothesis is to make verifiable quantitative predictions. I will accept submission of models or hypothesis until Nov. 24th. If your model and hypothesis succeed in predicting some important numbers ( it is up to you to tell me why a certain number or formula is important ) , I will give your proposal for necklace scoring system revision much greater attention.
__________________

Last edited by wontaek; 2013-11-15 at 15:04.
wontaek is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 14:47   Link #1787
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
One thing to note in ISML is that the voters of the underdogs don't give up. Unlike in Saimoe were when a faction starts to lose, the faction mostly leaves, ISML, they press on and sometime are rewarded when the more dominate factions let down their guard. Every once in a while a mid-tier girl will beat a tier one girl for seemingly no reason (Ayu beating Nagato Yuki in one of the first years). Or the steady pacing of Tomoyo going from the 7th new entry girl to fighting for first place against Fate (before the finals).
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 15:07   Link #1788
wontaek
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
One thing to note in ISML is that the voters of the underdogs don't give up. Unlike in Saimoe were when a faction starts to lose, the faction mostly leaves, ISML, they press on and sometime are rewarded when the more dominate factions let down their guard. Every once in a while a mid-tier girl will beat a tier one girl for seemingly no reason (Ayu beating Nagato Yuki in one of the first years). Or the steady pacing of Tomoyo going from the 7th new entry girl to fighting for first place against Fate (before the finals).
Part of the reason for this is by the design. If underdog factions gives up easily, we won't be able to sustain the growth in voter number ISML has enjoyed for 6 straight years. Therefore, much of my studies and simulation remains devoted to how best to give out some rewards to the weaker characters while still letting the dominant girls make themselves felt.
__________________
wontaek is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 19:04   Link #1789
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
I think records from many professional sports disputes your idea.
Not really. For your sports analogy here to work, the success of pro sports teams would have to depend solely on how many people show up to support them.

Because that is what the success of girls in moe competitions depends on: Which girl has the most people show up and vote for her.

If you're a supporter of a top-tier girl, and she's facing somebody from a lower-tier, there's a natural temptation there to take the match off since you know your girl is going to win anyway, and she won't be rewarded for a large margin of victory.

But if a girl is rewarded for large margin of victory, her supporters are more likely to consistently show up in every match, because then there is something at stake even in her more one-sided matches.

If one of your main goals is making regular season matches as important as possible, and to encourage voters to show up as consistently as possible, then rewarding girls for large margins of victory makes perfect sense to me.

What's actually counter-intuitive is rewarding close victories moreso than dominating victories, all else being equal (i.e. the strength/tier-level of the opponent remains the same).


And I don't see why rewarding crushing victories would discourage lower-tier girls' supporters from showing up. Rewarding crushing victories is not the same as punishing those who suffer crushing defeats. And honestly, I see very little evidence that mid-tier and lower-tier girls do that well in ISML anyway. Their voters stick around due to a sense of dedication, or because eventually their girl will have a match where she has a chance of victory, due to how the ISML regular season functions.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 20:03   Link #1790
Eisdrache
Part-time misanthrope
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
When you can trust maglor about something, then it's creating a logical conclusion from correct premises.

If you want something to criticize about ISML, then blame these math majors for coming up with the most complicated rating system they could think of for something as simple as a moe contest.
__________________
Eisdrache is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 20:32   Link #1791
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sixth Layer of Celestia
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
When you can trust maglor about something, then it's creating a logical conclusion from correct premises.

If you want something to criticize about ISML, then blame these math majors for coming up with the most complicated rating system they could think of for something as simple as a moe contest.
Moe is serious business, or so the old Saimoe posters used to say But yeah, no need to turn something like a moe contest into something that complicated. You just need to make sure fake votes are kept to a minimum, and maybe throw in an incentive or two to get people to participate.
npal is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 21:45   Link #1792
KholdStare
ISML Technical Staff
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to KholdStare Send a message via MSN to KholdStare
The preview for the first voting day is up:

http://www.internationalsaimoe.com/voting/

Remember that in the first two days, only 2 from each group will advance, so 2/3 of the contestants will be eliminated. They might be the most important two days so don't miss them.
KholdStare is offline  
Old 2013-11-15, 22:01   Link #1793
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
If you want something to criticize about ISML, then blame these math majors for coming up with the most complicated rating system they could think of for something as simple as a moe contest.
Hey, I'd be fine with totally simplifying it all the way to "The girl that gets the most votes win; the girls with the best Won-Loss period records get into Necklace matches and post-season matches which are then determined strictly by the most votes win". I'm the passionately anti-SDO guy, remember?

But if you're going to have highly elaborate rules designed to maximize voter involvement throughout the entire regular season, then it's very much open to debate what are the best rules to have. If you think that rewarding crushing victories is a bad idea, then please tell me why. Right now, I think it's a great idea if your goal is to maximize voter involvement throughout the entire regular season.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2013-11-16, 00:53   Link #1794
iamadooddood
NOM.
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Singapore
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
I don't quite understand the reasoning for this. Whatever the mean you use, VD and VF are MUCH easier to manipulate compared to SDO. To effect SDO, you have to make your girl win somehow. This means only the matches where the the winner is expected to get less than 54% of the votes are susceptible to any manipulation. For VD or VF, you don't have to change the winner to manipulate the results. All you have to do is to keep stuffing the votes for your faction's choice. If you consistently bring in 100 additional votes for your faction's choice, no matter which mean you use, you will raise your character's chance by 100/(average voter size) . In using VD and VF, what would be as important as winning,, perhaps even more important when you consider the ease to bring this about, would be to make sure you pile on your votes in matches your character is likely to win = Making sure your character wins the match by margin of 80 to 20 instead of 70 to 30. Again check the records. Our data from 2008 shows how easily group of merely 50 voters can manipulate the necklace standing in simple VD or VF scheme. Even now, if you can reliably control mere 5% of the voters, you can easily make any tier 1 girl of your choice win the necklace, since who your choice faces won't matter at all. With SDO scheme, even controlling 10% of the voters won't be enough to let your Tier 1 girl win the necklace for sure. 2009 Rozen Meister had to get 20+% voters to cooperate with him to control the necklace in SDO scheme. This means 2000+ voters now days, and even if you can get this many people to work with you, with current SDO + Necklace group round ( where we may get more than 14,000 voters ) you still aren't guaranteed your girl can win barring some luck.



I think records from many professional sports disputes your idea. Having some dominant teams display their dominance do boost ticket sales and TV ratings in the short run, but the overall sales and ratings number for the entire league usually decline if this dominance is kept up for more than a month. Parity among league teams usually results in steady growth of revenues for most of the teams in the league, thus much better in the long run. It also makes occasional flashes of dominance to be much bigger sale, provided that this dominance don't last too long. Translating this to ISML, I believe we are much better served when even the weakest contestant enjoys sizable fan base.

Right now, I think biggest problem ISML has is the dominance of class of 2011 = those who were in 2011 ISML post season. All but one of ISML tiara winner can be found in 2011 ISML post season list. When you have small number of characters dominating the league, you make it very susceptible for all kinds of manipulation. One of my aim when designing a system for ISML is how much it can promote diversity. If we have very diverse groups of voters, and if we have many groups for many different characters, it becomes hard for any single group to taint the record, and we would be less susceptible for a deflation, like the one we saw when Rozen faction left in 2009 postseason . Therefore, I see much more reason to encourage the weaker character's fan base to come out and vote compared to stronger character's fan base. The long term health of ISML depends little bit more on what the losing side's voters will do, compared to what the winning side may do. ( The actions of winning side's voters are important as well. It just is that losing side voters are more likely to react in negative way, which often is of greater concern for the league, overall. ) In these aspects, rewarding a girl for crushing victory more than normal victory is likely to be more harmful than good.

------------------------------------

Most important of all,

let's see what will happen in male+Touhou tournament where we don't have to worry about SDO nor VD. The first day match has been posted. ( http://internationalsaimoe.com/voting/ ) I'm sure all of you concerned with SDO can think up good tests to prove your point on what the results will be. I encourage any models and analysis strategy, provided that these models and analysis scheme is made known before the match starts. True test of models and hypothesis is to make verifiable quantitative predictions. I will accept submission of models or hypothesis until Nov. 24th. If your model and hypothesis succeed in predicting some important numbers ( it is up to you to tell me why a certain number or formula is important ) , I will give your proposal for necklace scoring system revision much greater attention.
OK, so what exactly is the main voting-related problem? Stuffing votes every match, or voters turning up for only the important matches like necklace matches? Because the other SDO people gave us the impression that the latter problem was greater. If that wasn't the case, then methods need overhauling again. But in any case, the necklace proposal will be a very good compromise (there's a problem with the necklace matches themselves, right? SDO is making them completely pointless), so as I currently see it there's no reason not to use it.

And before I can comment on anything else, I'll say this:

I see what you've done. You've not gotten rid of the vote manipulation problem. You've pushed it elsewhere.

End result: A lot of voters. Sure, there's a high chance that ISML will survive for a long time.

But guess what? Due to the emphasis on close victories, the winner will end up being the faction that can manipulate the most votes. While pushing a single faction may be hard, multiple factions ganging up on a single one is easy. Chances are, when a lower tier girl loses to a higher tier one, some of those voting for lower tier girls are actually from the higher tier girl's faction.

As for VD and VF being easily manipulatable, even if they were (which I doubt would be the case in later years, assuming it still is) at least they only affect the integrity of one character's placing. SDO affects multiple characters, a lot more so than VD or VF ever will, hence any manipulation of it will have greater effects, even if it wasn't as manipulatable.

I can't comment on anything else yet because I'm still calculating whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. Is sacrificing voters' integrity for ISML's general longevity a good thing? Does ISML still even capture the meaning of moe anymore? And so on.

As for the male + Touhou tournament, I don't think as many people care about them so manipulation is less likely. Of course, it still happens, but...

(Still, as Triple_R puts it, having Anime Saimoe Tournament's knockout system is still the best, but the mentality of their admins remains to be desired.)
__________________
When life gives you lemons... enjoy reading them.

Anime Saimoe Tournament 2013 is screwed up. Everyone's argument is invalid.
iamadooddood is offline  
Old 2013-11-16, 01:31   Link #1795
RegalStar
Mishaguji-sama
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Do you guys actually properly research about what kind of voters do ISML have

tip: playing JAST does not constitute proper research
RegalStar is offline  
Old 2013-11-16, 02:37   Link #1796
iamadooddood
NOM.
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Singapore
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalStar View Post
Do you guys actually properly research about what kind of voters do ISML have

tip: playing JAST does not constitute proper research
I never said that. It's just that constant knockout stages give it a feel of an actual tournament (think FA Cup versus Premier League). It's also true that ISML having a regular season makes it dull, which is the cause of one of the problems in the first place (irregular voting, hello?).

Also, I've only followed JAST for a few months (didn't even vote once) and I already knew what's going on because of, uh, the people talking about it in the thread? Seeing that ISML is international, I can tell what kind of voters it has just by reading this thread because people posting here are likelier to be ISML voters (the fact that a lot of ISML voters also follow JAST helps some). I've even gone to the ISML forum a bit (where they're even likelier to be ISML voters, for obvious reasons) and got a gist of how they're like. For example, most of them appear to be anti-SDO. That, or the anti-SDOers are making the most noise.

That said, having to use SDO as weightage in the necklace period rounds just to filter out multivotes, is already a bad enough sign.
__________________
When life gives you lemons... enjoy reading them.

Anime Saimoe Tournament 2013 is screwed up. Everyone's argument is invalid.

Last edited by iamadooddood; 2013-11-17 at 00:43. Reason: Mistake
iamadooddood is offline  
Old 2013-11-16, 07:43   Link #1797
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalStar View Post
Do you guys actually properly research about what kind of voters do ISML have
What do you mean by this? Demographic breakdowns?

ISML does display age, gender, and nationality/regional statistical breakdowns for its rounds and matches. But I'm not sure what that has to do with what we're talking about here, though I'm certainly open to any explanation on that.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2013-11-16, 16:23   Link #1798
wontaek
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 44
1. Despite our best efforts, it is inevitable that some people will try to multivote. There always is a chance that we may miss some for couple of rounds. One of the aim of the current design is to minimize the impact these multivotes may have.

2. I have not found any real life example where promoting crushing victories had positive effect on the league as whole. One of the hopes ISML organizer has is for people to interact with other people with different thoughts. You can't have that unless you find ways to cheer up the fans of losing girls in hope that they will stick around.

3. Simple VD system showed how mere 50 voters can skew the whole thing in 2008. Only argument I have seen that says such a thing can't happen, is one that says because we have more voters compared to 2008. I have countered that argument by pointing out that mere 5% of the voters can successfully skew the results to their favor in VD/VF scheme, if those 5% votes in all the rounds. We have seen from events like Best Moe Tournament where a faction may bring in 2000 voters to all the matches. 2009 Rozen faction consistently brought in over 1000 voters. Do you wish to be at mercy of these factions? I shudder to think how bad it could have been if 2009 system was VD/VF, not SDO.

4. A faction that can manipulate the most votes will have the greatest influence in the result no matter what kind of scoring system you have. Only real way to counter this is to encourage diversity. It is my fear that simple VD/VF system for necklace will discourage diversity.

5. Any system has to pursue 2 potentially conflicting goals : (1)Abiding by Majority's desire (2)Protecting the voice of the minority . Simply going by VD will give people no incentive to court the factions that supports minor or weaker characters.

6. Most problems in 2013 necklace had its roots not in SDO system; the root of the problem is dominance of class of 2011 and certain factions tendency to show up only for "key" matches. ALL the systems discussed will reward voters that consistently vote much more than those who show up only for the important matches. For some reason, most of the outcry was against factions that diligently voted in all the matches. SDO system in most cases do better job of rewarding the faction the sticks around and be courteous compared to VD, where it is hypothetically possible to win the whole thing with massive single burst of support.

6-1 . It is very important to remember that some girls got stuck at very disadvantageous starting point due to her fans ignoring prelim seeding matches. Misaka Mikoto is a very good example. She got stuck in 2nd Tier due to poor performance in the seeding matches. No matter what scoring system we used, Mikoto's chance for necklace will suffer because her schedule being less favorable for the necklace.

7. If you check all ISML records from 2008 to now, you will see that there is clear inverse relationship between schedule strength and VD. Obviously, it is because you can build up your VD number much easier if your opponents are weaker. VD/VF system will ensure that a character that beats several 1-6 and 2-5 opponents will win the necklace over another character that faced two 6-1 and two 5-2 characters. Are you sure you want to reward someone for having easy schedule? Unless VD/VF system is modified to reward characters that beat strong opponents, we cannot accept that. SDO was adopted in 2009 because of this, and at that time, it had very wide support.


The question comes down to this : Which character do you want to have the necklace?

(1) Someone who beat two 0-7, two 1 - 6, one 2 - 5 , one 4-3, and one 6-1 characters with average margin of victory near 10%.

(2) Someone who beat two 2- 5, one 3- 4, one 4- 3, one 5 -2 , and two 6-1 characters with average margin of victory near 7%.

I am interested in your answers, but also will point out that in most of real world cases, people have overwhelmingly favored case resembling (2). This is why we have RPI ratings being used in College Baskeball and BCS system in College Football in USA which relies on polls and computer models that rewards teams which had harder schedule. I also know BCS is flawed, but all the alternatives suggested by someone serious about college football placed heavy emphasis on schedule strength.
__________________

Last edited by wontaek; 2013-11-16 at 17:35.
wontaek is offline  
Old 2013-11-16, 17:28   Link #1799
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Aside from the Rozen Maidens, remember the Negima faction from Vietnam in the first year that dominated a single period and then left.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2013-11-16, 19:56   Link #1800
wontaek
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Aside from the Rozen Maidens, remember the Negima faction from Vietnam in the first year that dominated a single period and then left.
Frankly, I miss them. They would have added interesting twist to everything.
__________________
wontaek is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
isml, saimoe

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.