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Old 2013-11-15, 11:12   Link #41
Poetic Justice
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All the female characters introduced in this arc are boring, Not to mention the fact Oda draws them all too similarly. I hope none of them end up joining.
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Old 2013-11-15, 16:44   Link #42
marvelB
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Sad story is poor excuse not to join
Their sad story is to me is kinda irrelevant and not a good reason to not join the Straw hats.

You are once again missing my point. The issue here isn't that the characters have a sad past, but what path the future holds for them. Both Rebecca and Violet have too many strong ties to their homeland to just suddenly decide to leave with pirates. Like I said in my last post, they'd just be putting to waste all of the hard work and sacrifices they made over the past decade if they were to set sail as soon as Dofla is defeated. They would want to stay and help undo all of the damage that Doflamingo and his goons have caused. They'd have no room in their schedule for going out adventuring with pirates.




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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
What if Rebecca or viola do the same like Jimbe and decide to join later after the responsibilities are finished?

By that time the Straw-Hats' adventures would most likely be looooong over, lol. But like I said earlier about Shirahoshi, it's pretty much inevitable that the Riku royalty (as well as the Tontatta tribe) will be important allies of the Straw-Hats, so that's about as close to "nakama" status as they're gonna get, if you ask me.
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Old 2013-11-15, 18:40   Link #43
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
^
Is Brooks a master swordsmen like Zoro? Besides music can you tell me what other skill he has mastered or excels at? I didn't know Combat/prowess and capabilities were mandatory Nami and Usoppe got in just fine without it. Being a scout offer a huge advantage and that is just scratching the surface of the Giro Giro No Mi when you look at it. Now she does have fighting capabilities(not on par with some of the other Straw Hats). She did demonstrates her combat abilities with Sanji by saving him from the goons. She is not completely helpless.
Brook is more of a fencer than a swordsman. And Zoro's not a master swordsman; he's got a long way to go before he reaches the pinnacle of his path. You don't have to be a physical fighter to be classified as a combatant. As for Viola, protecting Sanji from those goons wasn't exactly impressive. To be considered strawhat caliber, she needs to show more. And should she pass that test, her case still doesn't look too good for joining the crew (much like Rebecca as well) for reasons already explained.
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Old 2013-11-15, 21:05   Link #44
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How about Wicca^, what are the chances of her joining if Luffy ends up seeing her inside Zoro's pocket?
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Old 2013-11-16, 12:00   Link #45
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You are once again missing my point. The issue here isn't that the characters have a sad past, but what path the future holds for them. Both Rebecca and Violet have too many strong ties to their homeland to just suddenly decide to leave with pirates. Like I said in my last post, they'd just be putting to waste all of the hard work and sacrifices they made over the past decade if they were to set sail as soon as Dofla is defeated. They would want to stay and help undo all of the damage that Doflamingo and his goons have caused. They'd have no room in their schedule for going out adventuring with pirates.

By that time the Straw-Hats' adventures would most likely be looooong over, lol. But like I said earlier about Shirahoshi, it's pretty much inevitable that the Riku royalty (as well as the Tontatta tribe) will be important allies of the Straw-Hats, so that's about as close to "nakama" status as they're gonna get, if you ask me.
Their path and what future holds for them
Now the way you are arguing it. Jimbe's case runs parallel with Viola and Rebecca's. Not in personal past but in the position they hold. Jimbe has strong ties and duty to the nation. Just like your case for Viola and Rebecca. He has sacrificed decades worth of his time to the royal family and the nation. Just like your case for Viola and Rebecca. He stayed behind to fix the damages done by Hodi and also make sure the fisherman Island was safe. Just like your case you are arguing for Viola and Rebecca. He will join the Straw Hat in the future. Does that make all of his decades of sacrifice for fisherman Island a waste? Right now with Jinbe has the case for my side of the argument, I don't see how Viola or Rebecca could not be candidates. Out of all the characters in this arch Viola and Rebecca have strong potentials of joining. Out of the two I would like Viola to be Straw Hat member but I think Rebecca will actually end up joining the crew by the end of the arch.

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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Brook is more of a fencer than a swordsman. And Zoro's not a master swordsman; he's got a long way to go before he reaches the pinnacle of his path. You don't have to be a physical fighter to be classified as a combatant. As for Viola, protecting Sanji from those goons wasn't exactly impressive. To be considered strawhat caliber, she needs to show more. And should she pass that test, her case still doesn't look too good for joining the crew (much like Rebecca as well) for reasons already explained.
Profession
Fencer or Swordsman there is very little difference they both fall under the same guidelines in the one piece universe. Second I wasn't talking about Zoro's fighting level I was putting out the fact that Zoro's job is literally Swordsman. He excels at that one thing. Brooke's will never compare to Zoro in that field. His true profession is musician. Any other abilities that Brooke's gets from his devil fruit will be valuable to the team and individual but never truly reach to its highest potentials. Right now Viola's devil fruit is the definition of a scout. Third what do you mean she needs to show more? What is your definition of Straw Hat Caliber? The Straw hats range from Ussope all the way to Luffy, and there are big differences that is what makes them unique. What are the standards for getting in? Right now I am looking at the Straw hats has a whole and individuals and I don't see how Viola and Rebecca don't qualify.
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Old 2013-11-16, 13:12   Link #46
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Wasn't it mandatory for every crewmember to have a personality quirk?
Like Usopp being a coward/liar and Nami obsessing over money.
Neither Viola or Rebecca have any such quirks and come across as relatively normal people (like Vivi) and when looking at it from a story perspective they are pretty boring.... Characters like Momonosuke or Wicca do have these quirks and would fit with the crew a whole lot better and have a lot more story potential.
So why is everybody so obsessive about either of these two royals to join?
What do they add to the story and the crew dynamics?
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Old 2013-11-16, 16:33   Link #47
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Profession
Second I wasn't talking about Zoro's fighting level I was putting out the fact that Zoro's job is literally Swordsman. He excels at that one thing. Brooke's will never compare to Zoro in that field. His true profession is musician. Any other abilities that Brooke's gets from his devil fruit will be valuable to the team and individual but never truly reach to its highest potentials. Right now Viola's devil fruit is the definition of a scout. Third what do you mean she needs to show more? What is your definition of Straw Hat Caliber? The Straw hats range from Ussope all the way to Luffy, and there are big differences that is what makes them unique. What are the standards for getting in? Right now I am looking at the Straw hats has a whole and individuals and I don't see how Viola and Rebecca don't qualify.
I disagreed with your notion that Zoro is a master swordsman, because the fact of the matter is that he isn't. His swordsmanship skills aren't up to par with the elites in that category. He's getting stronger and refining his skills as the story progresses. Brook doesn't need to compare to Zoro in swordsmanship. He's got enough in his arsenal to distinguish himself as his own fighter.

Viola needs to show more. It's that simple. We've hardly seen her do anything. How pivotal is she to the overall story? What are her personality quirks? Does she fit in with the strawhats? Is she capable enough as a fighter? When this arc started, I said that it would be the NW equivalent of Alabasta, and that's certainly looking to be the case (there are so many similarities). Viola and Rebecca are Vivi all over again.
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Old 2013-11-16, 17:39   Link #48
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I disagreed with your notion that Zoro is a master swordsman, because the fact of the matter is that he isn't. His swordsmanship skills aren't up to par with the elites in that category. He's getting stronger and refining his skills as the story progresses. Brook doesn't need to compare to Zoro in swordsmanship. He's got enough in his arsenal to distinguish himself as his own fighter.

Viola needs to show more. It's that simple. We've hardly seen her do anything. How pivotal is she to the overall story? What are her personality quirks? Does she fit in with the strawhats? Is she capable enough as a fighter? When this arc started, I said that it would be the NW equivalent of Alabasta, and that's certainly looking to be the case (there are so many similarities). Viola and Rebecca are Vivi all over again.
Lets just hope that the fight scenario doesn't end up like Alabasta, where Luffy lost twice against the main villain, before winning with pure luck and perseverance. That would make the 2 years training less meaningful.

Sanji's losing a fight against Doflamingo, should be a good enough price to pay, for gaining information on Doflamingo's df abilities, so that Luffy can be prepared to face him.
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Old 2013-11-16, 19:21   Link #49
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How about Wicca^, what are the chances of her joining if Luffy ends up seeing her inside Zoro's pocket?
Unless she gets some decent development that gives credibility to her potential as a candidate, I'd have to say that Wicca's chances are not good at all, either.....



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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Their path and what future holds for them
Now the way you are arguing it. Jimbe's case runs parallel with Viola and Rebecca's. Not in personal past but in the position they hold. Jimbe has strong ties and duty to the nation. Just like your case for Viola and Rebecca. He has sacrificed decades worth of his time to the royal family and the nation. Just like your case for Viola and Rebecca. He stayed behind to fix the damages done by Hodi and also make sure the fisherman Island was safe. Just like your case you are arguing for Viola and Rebecca. He will join the Straw Hat in the future. Does that make all of his decades of sacrifice for fisherman Island a waste? Right now with Jinbe has the case for my side of the argument, I don't see how Viola or Rebecca could not be candidates.

And here we have another classic case of comparing apples to oranges! Sorry bro, but there's a huge difference between Jinbei and the princesses in the sense that the former's responsibilities are NOT restricted to his homeland alone. Rather, his duties are tied to basically all fish/mer-people around the world in general. I mean, let's not forget his past with Fisher Tiger and the Sun Pirates, after all. He wants to help stop all of the racial tension and hatred spreading between the humans and fish-people, but also remember that the Neptune family is also handling that issue in their own way (the petition, as well as the upcoming Reverie), so he's not obligated to remain at his island. Plus, he already explained that he and his fellow Sun pirate remnants had business with Big Mom, so at least that much DOES warrant his joining the Straw-Hats in their NW adventures. Such things cannot be said for Violet and Rebecca, whose duties are restricted entirely to Dressrosa.





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Originally Posted by JonSnow View Post
Lets just hope that the fight scenario doesn't end up like Alabasta, where Luffy lost twice against the main villain, before winning with pure luck and perseverance. That would make the 2 years training less meaningful.

Honestly, I don't really have any big issues with Luffy losing against Dofla once or twice. It would show that Dofla was THAT strong of an opponent. Besides, contrary to what folks like grey_1960 might say, Luffy doesn't exactly have a perfect winning streak in the NW so far (he lost once to Caesar in PH, thanks to underestimating his opponent).



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So why is everybody so obsessive about either of these two royals to join?
What do they add to the story and the crew dynamics?

Two words: More boobs.
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Old 2013-11-16, 19:55   Link #50
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Honestly, I don't really have any big issues with Luffy losing against Dofla once or twice. It would show that Dofla was THAT strong of an opponent. Besides, contrary to what folks like grey_1960 might say, Luffy doesn't exactly have a perfect winning streak in the NW so far (he lost once to Caesar in PH, thanks to underestimating his opponent.
Zoro did remind Luffy after the CC incident, that he should be more careful, an advice coming from someone who also fell victim to the cool yeti brother's trap.
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Old 2013-11-17, 05:44   Link #51
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Two words: More boobs.

Manboobs and dwarfboobs are a bit underwhelming I guess...
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Old 2013-11-17, 14:11   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I disagreed with your notion that Zoro is a master swordsman, because the fact of the matter is that he isn't. His swordsmanship skills aren't up to par with the elites in that category. He's getting stronger and refining his skills as the story progresses. Brook doesn't need to compare to Zoro in swordsmanship. He's got enough in his arsenal to distinguish himself as his own fighter.

Viola needs to show more. It's that simple. We've hardly seen her do anything. How pivotal is she to the overall story? What are her personality quirks? Does she fit in with the strawhats? Is she capable enough as a fighter? When this arc started, I said that it would be the NW equivalent of Alabasta, and that's certainly looking to be the case (there are so many similarities). Viola and Rebecca are Vivi all over again.
I am not talking about Zoro's power level
You can keep putting words in my mouth but link 45(my post to you) cleared it up. I am talking about profession on Link #45. Even you know Zoro is stronger then Brooks when it comes to Swords and fighting. Yes I can use and compare Zoro with Brooke because he is a perfect example of Swordsman.

Show you more
If (Very big if at that) the theory that I posted on previous page Link #34 page 2 (Crack in the Armor) is true then she will play a very big role in the story. Has for showing you more. She did alert Sanji that the crew was in danger (Chapter 725). She gave Sanji the location of the factory (Chapter 713), Provided intel on marines (4 ships 3000 marines) and she suggested different rally point for the Straw hats. Viola revealed Daflamingo's trap and that CP0 was on the Island to Sanji (Chapter 712). She has done a lot to move the story along has well has provide the Straw Hats with valuable intel.

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
And here we have another classic case of comparing apples to oranges! Sorry bro, but there's a huge difference between Jinbe and the princesses in the sense that the former's responsibilities are NOT restricted to his homeland alone. Rather, his duties are tied to basically all fish/mer-people around the world in general. I mean, let's not forget his past with Fisher Tiger and the Sun Pirates, after all. He wants to help stop all of the racial tension and hatred spreading between the humans and fish-people, but also remember that the Neptune family is also handling that issue in their own way (the petition, as well as the upcoming Reverie), so he's not obligated to remain at his island. Plus, he already explained that he and his fellow Sun pirate remnants had business with Big Mom, so at least that much DOES warrant his joining the Straw-Hats in their NW adventures. Such things cannot be said for Violet and Rebecca, whose duties are restricted entirely to Dressrosa.
Apples and Oranges Really?
You can throw all the minor details of his past all you want but when looking at his position they hold similarity. His importance to fisherman Island is just has strong. His consequences if he joins the straw hat is just has big. Luffy and Big mama are at odds with each other. If Jinbe joins Luffy what do you think Big Mama will do to Fisherman Island? Is that not the same thing you are arguing for Rebecca and Viola when it comes to joining the Straw Hats? You can say apples and oranges all you like but on Link#45(my response to you) and this post tell me are those not facts about Jinbe? Are you not arguing that they should not join for similar reasons posted on Link #45 and this post? These are yes or no questions. If you can't give me a no on these question then your apples and oranges holds no weight.
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Old 2013-11-17, 16:24   Link #53
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
I am not talking about Zoro's power level
You can keep putting words in my mouth but link 45(my post to you) cleared it up. I am talking about profession on Link #45. Even you know Zoro is stronger then Brooks when it comes to Swords and fighting. Yes I can use and compare Zoro with Brooke because he is a perfect example of Swordsman.

Show you more
If (Very big if at that) the theory that I posted on previous page Link #34 page 2 (Crack in the Armor) is true then she will play a very big role in the story. Has for showing you more. She did alert Sanji that the crew was in danger (Chapter 725). She gave Sanji the location of the factory (Chapter 713), Provided intel on marines (4 ships 3000 marines) and she suggested different rally point for the Straw hats. Viola revealed Daflamingo's trap and that CP0 was on the Island to Sanji (Chapter 712). She has done a lot to move the story along has well has provide the Straw Hats with valuable intel.
No one's putting words in your mouth. Read properly and carefully. I'm not talking at all about who's stronger between Zoro and Brook. And I know you're not talking about power levels. I'm simply stating that Zoro is NOT a master swordsman, which is what you said. His swordsmanship skills are not amongst those of the elites.

Not enough, I'm afraid. Again, she's analogous to Vivi from the Alabasta arc, and we all know how that turned out.
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Last edited by Blackbeard D. Kuma; 2013-11-17 at 20:21.
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Old 2013-11-18, 04:24   Link #54
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Apples and Oranges Really?
You can throw all the minor details of his past all you want but when looking at his position they hold similarity. His importance to fisherman Island is just has strong. His consequences if he joins the straw hat is just has big. Luffy and Big mama are at odds with each other. If Jinbe joins Luffy what do you think Big Mama will do to Fisherman Island? Is that not the same thing you are arguing for Rebecca and Viola when it comes to joining the Straw Hats?

Context is the key word here, Grey. You call those details behind Jinbei's history "minor", but they make all the difference in the world. You cannot ignore such important facts if you want to make your argument work. On the contrary, that would weaken your stance. And as I already said, the fact that Jinbei's priorities are NOT restricted to mermaid island is what gives him an edge over Violet and Rebecca as far as Straw-Hat potential goes. The two girls' situations COMPLETELY revolve around Dressrosa. They can't just leave and go on an adventure as soon as the dust clears. They need to stay and help undo all of the damage and confusion that Dofla has caused (a process that could take YEARS, mind you). THAT is what I mean when I say apples and oranges. The context between Jinbei and those two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you too should realize that the two princesses joining at the end of this arc would not make any sense.


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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
You can say apples and oranges all you like but on Link#45(my response to you) and this post tell me are those not facts about Jinbe? Are you not arguing that they should not join for similar reasons posted on Link #45 and this post? These are yes or no questions. If you can't give me a no on these question then your apples and oranges holds no weight.

tl;dr: I am saying NO, Grey, because Rebecca and Violet's situations are ONLY similar to Jinbei's on the surface. You have to look MUCH deeper than that to find a legit reason for them to join, which I already explained in detail not just above, but in my last few responses to you. Now, if you can give me a good argument for the girls that dive deeper than the shallow surface of the pool that is the "duty to the nation" comparison, I am more than willing to listen.
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Old 2013-11-18, 14:26   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
No one's putting words in your mouth. Read properly and carefully. I'm not talking at all about who's stronger between Zoro and Brook. And I know you're not talking about power levels. I'm simply stating that Zoro is NOT a master swordsman, which is what you said. His swordsmanship skills are not amongst those of the elites.

Not enough, I'm afraid. Again, she's analogous to Vivi from the Alabasta arc, and we all know how that turned out.
You read properly and carefully
"I disagreed with your notion that Zoro is a master swordsman, because the fact of the matter is that he isn't. His swordsmanship skills aren't up to par with the elites in that category." Those are your words Link #47

When you say Zoro is not a master Swordsman what are you talking about? His skill and powers. You keep referring to it why? I was pointing at the profession. You need to read Post#45 more carefully. I don't care about his Sword skill if it is or not amongst the elite. I am pointing the the fact that Zoro is dedicated to his profession. Brooks is the jack of all trades his only true profession is music. That is what I said in beginning and that is what I am clearing up in Link #45. Your the only person bringing up Zoro's power level by saying he is not among the elite in his skill and saying he is not a master swordsman.

Not Enough
If that is your answer then i am content. Because I answered all of you questions and even your standards for joining the Straw Hats and the best you can give me is "Not Enough". Has for Viola and Vivi they are nothing alike and the outcome won't be the same for that reason.

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Context is the key word here, Grey. You call those details behind Jinbei's history "minor", but they make all the difference in the world. You cannot ignore such important facts if you want to make your argument work. On the contrary, that would weaken your stance. And as I already said, the fact that Jinbei's priorities are NOT restricted to mermaid island is what gives him an edge over Violet and Rebecca as far as Straw-Hat potential goes. The two girls' situations COMPLETELY revolve around Dressrosa. They can't just leave and go on an adventure as soon as the dust clears. They need to stay and help undo all of the damage and confusion that Dofla has caused (a process that could take YEARS, mind you). THAT is what I mean when I say apples and oranges. The context between Jinbei and those two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you too should realize that the two princesses joining at the end of this arc would not make any sense.

tl;dr: I am saying NO, Grey, because Rebecca and Violet's situations are ONLY similar to Jinbei's on the surface. You have to look MUCH deeper than that to find a legit reason for them to join, which I already explained in detail not just above, but in my last few responses to you. Now, if you can give me a good argument for the girls that dive deeper than the shallow surface of the pool that is the "duty to the nation" comparison, I am more than willing to listen.
Details Details Details
Since your into the minor details then lets look for similarities and find out which ones are relevant and which aren't. First the mermaid Island. What is so special about it besides the race fisherman race? Don't other citizens of other countries travel out side their country? I too can say Rebecca and Violet have a duty to protect and represent the citizens outside of Dressrossa right? Because race has nothing to do with citizens traveling outside their country or Island, correct? So I don't see how Violet and Rebecca's priorities are restricted Dressrosa.

Second you say that they can't just leave and go on and adventure as soon as the dust clears. Nami left, why didn't she stay behind until all the damages Arlong did were fixed? Sanji left why didn't he stay until the restaurant was fixed up and running? How about Franky he left Water 7. Shouldn't he have stayed behind with his brother Iceburg to create water 7 into a boat and protect it from the Aqua Laguna? Drum Kingdom possessed the most numerous and skilled doctors until Wapol kept 20 of the most skilled doctors and banished and murdered the rest. Shouldn't chopper stayed behind until the doctors returned and all of Wapol damage are undone? If you claim that Rebecca and Violet have to stay behind because of the mess that daflamingo caused then Half the Straw Hats should not have joined right away or at all. You can use context and minor details all you want but even in the smallest details you can find similarities. With your reasoning in place I don't see how half the Straw hats could have joined at all because it would make no sense.
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Old 2013-11-18, 21:37   Link #56
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So why is everybody so obsessive about either of these two royals to join?
What do they add to the story and the crew dynamics?
The doujins of course, that's why roughly 50% are so obsessed. It didn't really matter if it was Hancock, Keimi, Perona, Shirahoshi or Marguerite either, they just want a reduction in the percentage of sausage composing the crew of the Sunny-Go.
As to what they add to the story, I believe marvelB answered that most succinctly.
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Old 2013-11-18, 22:53   Link #57
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Ah Grey, stubborn as ever, I see. Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to talk in circles with you some more, I must postpone that for now since spoilers are out. Perhaps we can continue this little debate in the next thread?
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Old 2013-11-19, 15:03   Link #58
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You are once again missing my point. The issue here isn't that the characters have a sad past, but what path the future holds for them. Both Rebecca and Violet have too many strong ties to their homeland to just suddenly decide to leave with pirates. Like I said in my last post, they'd just be putting to waste all of the hard work and sacrifices they made over the past decade if they were to set sail as soon as Dofla is defeated. They would want to stay and help undo all of the damage that Doflamingo and his goons have caused. They'd have no room in their schedule for going out adventuring with pirates.
Even Franky, whose people were completely dependent on him, joined the Straw Hat Pirates.

[Not going for spoilers]
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Old 2013-11-20, 02:24   Link #59
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Even Franky, whose people were completely dependent on him, joined the Straw Hat Pirates.

Apples and oranges again! Or will you say that Usopp should have been devoted to babysitting those 3 kids at his home village, too?
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