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Old 2013-11-28, 16:04   Link #41
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
im insinuating that he may have actually killed his brothers and could have likley been playing hashirama all this time...
but what's his end game then? hashi offered him the hokage title and he refused it. there wouldn't really be a point in him playing hashi
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Old 2013-11-28, 18:53   Link #42
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I'm still not sure what his original plan was. He had no idea Kabuto would recreate him with a younger, stronger body than he ever had before, so he was going to have Obito revive his old broken one?

A plus about this though is that Madara won't throw around wasteful jutsu now, and will be far more focussed than he was before, given that he only really took hits before from techniques he never feared could cause him a problem. He never seemed too fussed that he was pinned down by Hashirama either, and was probably still playing around to keep him distracted whilst everyone else took on Obito.

Now we'll really see what he is truly about. There's probably more to the rinnegan than we currently know as well, and there may have been more on that Uchiha tablet than he has currently disclosed.
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Old 2013-11-28, 20:35   Link #43
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I'm still not sure what his original plan was. He had no idea Kabuto would recreate him with a younger, stronger body than he ever had before, so he was going to have Obito revive his old broken one?
as we saw with edo-nagato, the rinnegan has a chakra absorption tech that restores youth and health to the user. madara was probably planning on using that after he got rinne tensei'd.. but that begs the question why he didn't just use that in the first place instead of giving his eyes to nagato
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Old 2013-11-28, 20:53   Link #44
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I'm still not sure what his original plan was. He had no idea Kabuto would recreate him with a younger, stronger body than he ever had before, so he was going to have Obito revive his old broken one?

A plus about this though is that Madara won't throw around wasteful jutsu now, and will be far more focussed than he was before, given that he only really took hits before from techniques he never feared could cause him a problem. He never seemed too fussed that he was pinned down by Hashirama either, and was probably still playing around to keep him distracted whilst everyone else took on Obito.

Now we'll really see what he is truly about. There's probably more to the rinnegan than we currently know as well, and there may have been more on that Uchiha tablet than he has currently disclosed.
Madara always planned that Obito would revive him, but his resurrection came about in an unexpected way. The original plan was for Obito to recruit Nagato, then have him use the Rinne Tensei to revive Madara's corpse (let's assume Madara's old body is accessible somewhere). Alas, Nagato betrayed Obito and decided to revive all the people he killed in Konoha.

Eventually, Obito went to the Hidden Rain village to retrieve Nagato's Rinnegan for himself. At that rate, he could rely on himself to be the Juubi's Jinchuuriki and reviving Madara would be unnecessary. Or perhaps Obito still believed that Madara was essential and planned to revive him as a back-up plan of some sort. What he thought at the time does not matter because Kabuto gave Obito quite a shock by revealing that he had revived a younger Madara with the ability to use Mokuton. Obito got one-upped, but it was an advantage. An invincible, and controllable, Madara at his peak performance level revived from a jutsu with no drawbacks. Unfortunately, the controllable aspect did not last when Kabuto lost to Itachi.

So that's how things happened. Nagato and Kabuto ruined the original plan, but Madara found a way out.
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Old 2013-11-29, 08:15   Link #45
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Originally Posted by forcerounds View Post
Madara always planned that Obito would revive him, but his resurrection came about in an unexpected way. The original plan was for Obito to recruit Nagato, then have him use the Rinne Tensei to revive Madara's corpse (let's assume Madara's old body is accessible somewhere). Alas, Nagato betrayed Obito and decided to revive all the people he killed in Konoha.

Eventually, Obito went to the Hidden Rain village to retrieve Nagato's Rinnegan for himself. At that rate, he could rely on himself to be the Juubi's Jinchuuriki and reviving Madara would be unnecessary. Or perhaps Obito still believed that Madara was essential and planned to revive him as a back-up plan of some sort. What he thought at the time does not matter because Kabuto gave Obito quite a shock by revealing that he had revived a younger Madara with the ability to use Mokuton. Obito got one-upped, but it was an advantage. An invincible, and controllable, Madara at his peak performance level revived from a jutsu with no drawbacks. Unfortunately, the controllable aspect did not last when Kabuto lost to Itachi.

So that's how things happened. Nagato and Kabuto ruined the original plan, but Madara found a way out.
I guess I should rephrase that as 'I'm still not sure how Madara's original plan would work'
I get the plan, I just don't see how it would work well because...

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
as we saw with edo-nagato, the rinnegan has a chakra absorption tech that restores youth and health to the user. madara was probably planning on using that after he got rinne tensei'd.. but that begs the question why he didn't just use that in the first place instead of giving his eyes to nagato
It looked like Nagato got his health back by absorbing the bijuu chakra, but it didn't look to me like he had regained his youth though. So Madara would still have been trying to seal the juubi into his ancient body.

*edit* Which is what makes me think there may be more to the rinnegan than we currently know.
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Old 2013-11-29, 11:22   Link #46
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Madara always planned that Obito would revive him, but his resurrection came about in an unexpected way. The original plan was for Obito to recruit Nagato, then have him use the Rinne Tensei to revive Madara's corpse (let's assume Madara's old body is accessible somewhere). Alas, Nagato betrayed Obito and decided to revive all the people he killed in Konoha.
Obito was never in Madara's original plan since Obito fell into Madara's cave completely randomly. Madara implanted his original eyes into Nagato before he met Obito, and the only logical reason for that must be that he wanted Nagato to revive him using the rinnegan. Unfortunately Kishi didn't give us any flashback about Madara's original plan that included only Nagato and Black&White Zetsus. Sure the Zetsu guys carried Madara's will, his plan, but how was that supposed to make Nagato sacrifice himself for the revival is not known. Either this is a plot hole or Kishi will explain later. Also why would Nagato have a plan to collect all the tailed beasts and revive the 10 tails? Was the plan implanted/sealed into the rinnegan eyes that would then later activate a sealed genjutsu and use it on Nagato's brain to make him execute Madara's plan? If so then is this the reason Obito uses only 1 rinnegan eye so that he could break out of the activated genjutsu? Or was the control over Nagato based on the black rods that Madara left? We know that the black rods are used to control people and also that apparently they can carry Madara's will just like black Zetsu. When Nagato used the full power of the rinnegan and summoned the Gedo Mazo we see multiple black rods entering his body, i guess that was prepared by Madara since there does not seem to be a natural reason why would summoning and controlling the gedo mazo (as we see Obito did that too) require one to be pierced by those black rods.

When Madara met Obito he reformulated his original plan to include Obito. I guess he realized that he could make of Obito a great asset. But he had the risk that Obito will not execute his plan so he implanted black zetsu to gain control over Obito if necessary. And of course both the original and new plan must be working without Madara's precence, because he is dead. The problem is however that in this chapter we see how black zetsu had to be activated manually by Madara, which doesn't make sense since Madara couldn't have predicted that he will be back as an Edo Tensei. And this one seems to be a real plot hole. of course one could say that Madara's new plan included the old plan too, where Nagato is the one who actually resurrects Madara. But even then if Obito doesn't want to resurrect Madara he could do something to Nagato to prevent the resurrection. So the new plan then had to include black Zetsu forcing Madara's will on Obito at any time when Black Zetsu realizes that Obito betrayed Madara. And this actually makes sense, because as we see Black Zetsu was always around Obito, even if it looked like he was Obito's subordinate. And if we look at Obito's apparent crazyness when he calls himself Madara we can also come to the conclusion that Obito wasn't so much crazy as he was acting for Black Zetsu, he was acting the "good guy", so that Black Zetsu would not suspact a betrayal (remember when Obito tells to Zetsu that Nagato betrayed him, as if he himself was Madara, maybe he was just acting for Zetsu). We see that Obito removed Black Zetsu from the real battlefield by sending him to some far away place to fool around with the feudal lords, that could also be to remove B. Zetsu from the scene when he actually begins his betrayal.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-11-29 at 11:40.
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Old 2013-11-29, 11:46   Link #47
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New volume. Really liking Kishimoto's artwork.
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Old 2013-11-29, 12:34   Link #48
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Obito was never in Madara's original plan since Obito fell into Madara's cave completely randomly.
i think what we are going to find out is that obito 'falling' into madara's cave wasn't random and was in fact completely planned by madara as part of his original plan. he could have easily had zetsu keeping an eye on prospect uchihas like obito, itachi, shisui, etc... my assumption is zetsu simply brought a dying obito to him

if it turns out to be random then it will be stupid. as stupid as obito was for believing it to be random and believing madara had nothing to do with him witnessing rin's death
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Old 2013-11-29, 13:03   Link #49
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Indeed, it seems more likely to me that Obito falling into Madara's hands was planned. The timing of Rin's death shortly afterwards is way too convenient, and likely something Madara set up to get full control over Obito.
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Old 2013-11-29, 15:18   Link #50
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i think what we are going to find out is that obito 'falling' into madara's cave wasn't random and was in fact completely planned by madara as part of his original plan. he could have easily had zetsu keeping an eye on prospect uchihas like obito, itachi, shisui, etc... my assumption is zetsu simply brought a dying obito to him

if it turns out to be random then it will be stupid. as stupid as obito was for believing it to be random and believing madara had nothing to do with him witnessing rin's death
Well both cases are stupid, just like Madara's plan of this current chapter which was to wait until Obito loses to the alliance. Can he tell the future or what. There are already so many convoluted and impossible plans in this manga. Of course when Obito fell into the cave i also complained that such random stuff is impossible to happen. But the manga currently says so, and as i said these crazy plans are becoming too much to bear

Of course Madara could make a plan where he orders Zetsu to keep an eye on the strongest young Uchiha. But Kishi should have at least given us one clue, i didn't see any. If his plan was to have one of these watched guys be heavily wounded AND left to die by his comrades then it was quite a success. The guy had to be heavily wounded in order to be able to implant Zetsu in him, so later he can be controlled. He had to be abandoned by his comrades so that he is likely to fall for Madara's little theories about the evil world. Also the whole thing with Rin might have been Madara's plan too, because he realized that Rin's existence is ruining his plan of controlling Obito. It would make sense. But there wasn't even the slightest hint that it could be Madara's doing. I even checked those chapters for this when they came out and didn't find anything. Maybe i missed something... And of course this plans would have to be all executed by Zetsu, since Madara was about to die and was on life support. But how could Zetsu make all that happen, it seems impossible considering how passive Zetsu was during the whole manga ( crap! i said impossible, when i say that it becomes part of the plot sooner or later )
Also why making a plan that depends on both Nagato and Obito, both being not completely sane mentally, it's much more risky than concentrating only on one.
But i guess since crazy plans are the stadard in this manga this could be the case I'm expecting at least one flashback of Madara, what happened after he lost to the 1st and before he died. But right now it does seem that Kishi just wanted the manga to last longer so he attached more and more new characters (Tobi) but couldn't work out some way to perfectly fit the story parts together.

And of course the weakest part of the story: Madara somehow implanted his rinnegan eyes into Nagato. Then apparently he abandoned Nagato who almost died many times in his childhood. ( Funny thing Orochi wanted to kill him and his 2 friends, and if that happened then there would be no revival of Madara, no akatsuki to collect tailed beasts, etc. ) So if the eyes are lost because then Madara's plan instantly fails. Therefore if he planned all this with both Nagato and Obito in the plan then its completely idiotic to risk the key to his resurrection by putting both eyes into Nagato. Why not put one into Obito from the start. Then either of them could revive him. That would be a real plan B with Obito. The way Obito approached Nagato so late in the story means that Obito was not in the plan.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-11-29 at 17:36.
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Old 2013-11-29, 15:34   Link #51
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I don't think Madara planned this all along. His original plan was getting revived by Nagato as a normal human (Not Edo, I think) and then become the host of the Ten Tails. As this failed, he planned to sacrifice Obito to revive him and become the Ten Tails' host but this plan failed again. Now, he is using his last card to do what he wanted in the first place. In comparison to other masterminds, Madara's plans are far from perfect which seems like something good to me. Didn't he also tell the First Hokage he was planning something in case Obito won?
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Old 2013-11-29, 16:27   Link #52
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What I don't understand is why Madara's plan is still Tsuki no Me. The whole idea it was based on was that there could never be peace among the nations and that this was the only way to attain some form of peace. But look at the situation now. Ninja from every nation are fighting together, not under the banner of a village, but under the banner of Shinobi. Doesn't this prove that there can be peace? All it took was a common enemy, apparently.
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Old 2013-11-29, 17:02   Link #53
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What I don't understand is why Madara's plan is still Tsuki no Me. The whole idea it was based on was that there could never be peace among the nations and that this was the only way to attain some form of peace. But look at the situation now. Ninja from every nation are fighting together, not under the banner of a village, but under the banner of Shinobi. Doesn't this prove that there can be peace? All it took was a common enemy, apparently.
And once the common enemy is gone, what happens? Alliances do not last indefinitely, especially if there is something to gain from breaking the alliance (or if feelings of disparity and inequality develop amongst the nations).

Personally, Madara's motives still confuse me. I understand what he is supposedly trying to do, but his attitude in trying to accomplish said goals seems contrary to his actions. You can't go acting like a crazed villain who takes glee in war and fighting and then try and convince others that you are fighting for some form of peace.
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Old 2013-11-29, 17:45   Link #54
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In comparison to other masterminds, Madara's plans are far from perfect
Is there any mastermind in this series? I didn't see anyone who had a super-smart plan, be it evil or good. Most of these "plans" were idiotic, or at most average. The only reason these plans succeed is because the author wants so
What comes to my mind are the really bad action movies: the hero plans to attack and beat the evil army one by one. And you see him fighting the the evil guy while all the others are just running or jumping in the background waiting for their turn
So they are not allowed by the plot to attack him all at once, but that doesn't make the hero's plan good
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Old 2013-11-29, 17:47   Link #55
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That's what I thought too, but it does seem like the five Kage have formed a strong bond, and I think if they put some effort into it they could maintain this bond. Hell even Raikage who was determined to kill Sasuke, is now happily fighting alongside him.

I guess for me it's reversed. I'm not surprised about Madara's personality, everyone who ever talked about him spoke of how he wanted war and not peace. What surprises me is that his plan is supposed to be the opposite of that.
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Old 2013-11-29, 21:31   Link #56
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Old 2013-11-30, 02:47   Link #57
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Does anyone else feel like this whole war has felt really chaotic and haphazard? Especially the current fight seems disorganized and random. (The best part of the whole thing has been the brief chapters where Naruto/Sasuke/2ND/4TH were trying different combos on Obito)

I just marathon watched 600 episodes of One Piece and the analogous "big fight" in that series seemed much more cohesive/organized.
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That might simply be a consequence of animation vs drawings, so maybe this bazillion person fight against obito/madara will be better when animated. What do you guys think? Is this a case of simply too much action to be properly captured in drawings, or is the setup fundamentally poorly thought out?
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Old 2013-11-30, 04:47   Link #58
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Personally, Madara's motives still confuse me. I understand what he is supposedly trying to do, but his attitude in trying to accomplish said goals seems contrary to his actions. You can't go acting like a crazed villain who takes glee in war and fighting and then try and convince others that you are fighting for some form of peace.
Conceptually it could easily work if it wasn't badly written. Madara is the product of his environment, he's his own best example that shinobi are born and bred for war and just cannot help themselves even if they know it's wrong.
Ideally it should even be the seed for his failure, Madara may dream of peace but what he truly yearn for is battle. An illusion world under his command would inevitably fall into violence, chaos and strife.
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Old 2013-11-30, 10:19   Link #59
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Old 2013-11-30, 10:23   Link #60
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An illusion world under his command would inevitably fall into violence, chaos and strife.
Lets hope we see that for at least a couple of chapters
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