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Old 2013-12-28, 16:18   Link #8161
Rising Dragon
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If so, hope you disliked the same attitude from Nanoha.
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Old 2013-12-29, 03:18   Link #8162
Justin_Brett
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Again, it's possible to like and dislike two characters that are similar. Context is kind of important for how a character is viewed.
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Old 2013-12-29, 03:58   Link #8163
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Liking one character for one reason and disliking another for the exact same reason is hypocritical no matter how you spin it.
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Old 2013-12-29, 04:46   Link #8164
Akiyoshi
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Liking one character for one reason and disliking another for the exact same reason is hypocritical no matter how you spin it.
But sincere as well, call it hypocrite all you want but one should not feel ashamed to express what one thinks and sometimes one can't help it but to feel some way about certain characters even if they're similar to others (despite all the coincidental similitudes Tohma and Nanoha are not "THE" same character). Justin is right about context, Nanoha's idealism seemed natural, Tohma's feels kind of ...dumb. I mean yeah, Nanoha was kinda naive as well but it felt more like naivetty and less like genre blindness as if the case with Tohma towards every EC infected he comes across.

Again, context, maybe Nanoha would have looked a lot dumber in a setting like FORCE adn Tohma a lot more natural in a setting like season one.

Altough, to be sincere, i don't think it could be that farfetched that Tohma feels inclined to help the Grendels. After all, they're teenage boys like him and seem more mischievous rather than outright evil (the key word being "seem"), Carter/Kurt specially due to look like a boy around his age. His sympathy to the Huckebeins on the other hand...
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Old 2013-12-29, 19:08   Link #8165
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I think RD was talking about Force Nanoha here.
Since Hayate gave Thoma a gold star for his speech and said that everyone was feeling the same way, I think the hating Thoma alone is indeed unfair.
I didn`t liked how their unwillingness to kill is getting more and more innocents killed way before Thoma joined in...
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Old 2013-12-29, 19:13   Link #8166
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No. I was not. Season 1 Nanoha and Thoma are damn near the same, with only their gender as the major difference. And for the most part, people who don't like Thoma's idealism in Force didn't seem to have a damn problem with that same idealism in season 1. It's hypocritical.
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Old 2013-12-29, 19:46   Link #8167
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My bad.

Looks at what starting this... Yeah...
Sorry, I have nothing to add.

And here I was hoping for chapter 30 too.
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Old 2013-12-29, 22:31   Link #8168
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No. I was not. Season 1 Nanoha and Thoma are damn near the same, with only their gender as the major difference. And for the most part, people who don't like Thoma's idealism in Force didn't seem to have a damn problem with that same idealism in season 1. It's hypocritical.
How are they the same? Nanoha was a naive 8year old who was confident that the person she was trying to help wasn't a bad person. A mix between her first impressions of Fate and that Fate apologized after attacking her/avoided killing her on multiple occasions and has not been known to kill anyone at all. Nanoha didn't, for instance, try to reason or sympathize with Quattro. She blew the crap out of her and called it a day.

Thoma is old enough to know better and the Hucks have killed without remorse. He has a shoddy reason for sympathizing with them and he doesn't have naivete as an excuse considering his age.

Big differece there, Rising.

Last edited by Serovectra; 2013-12-29 at 22:58.
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Old 2013-12-29, 23:34   Link #8169
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Maaaaaybe Tohma is not as naive as we're perceiving him and have actual reasons to show said sympathy towards the Huckebein other than messiahnic simple-mindedness. Nanoha's level of idealism in season one is similar to Tohma's except she was a bit more sensible about things happening around her than Tohma.

I guess things will get better for Tohma's character when shit gets real and he's forced to pick a side for good.
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Old 2013-12-29, 23:47   Link #8170
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Another problem is that the 1st and second season of Nanoha put a lot of emphasis on bonds and friendship and all that jazz. Force is trying to be grim dark and idealism in a grim dark series is nothing short of...I'll just say it: retarded.

The villains in Force are bad people and they don't deserve nor want sympathy.
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Old 2013-12-29, 23:53   Link #8171
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Nanoha knew next to nothing about Fate in season 1. She wanted to find out because she had "sad eyes", and otherwise knew nothing about her or how potentially good or bad she was. In her desire to find out about Fate and help her, she made reckless actions and went against direct orders from Lindy and Chrono, such as aiding Fate during the storm Fate conjured. Her idealism paid off in the end, but she had very little logic behind wanting to help her in the first place. It was the same with Vita and the Wolkenritter--she wanted to know what they want, willing to talk it out with them despite the fact that all she knew about them was that they're trying to fill a book whose main course of action was "destroy the entire planet", and whom one among them nearly murdered her before in cold blood.

Thoma at least has the excuse of wanting to help the Eclipse infectees like the Huckebein and the Grendels because he knows what they've gone through, having been infected by the same virus they have, having been through the same emotional troubles they have. He understands how their situation has changed them, and hey--he's not exactly clean himself. Thoma's got blood on his hands as well, since when he was first infected--when he blasted that base to save Lily, he ended up killing people as well, and hey! You don't see him showing too much remorse about that, do you?

Fact of the matter is, Thoma is very, very similar to Nanoha in her younger years, and has the added benefit of having a better excuse for his idealism. And people rage against his actions when they didn't have a damn problem with Nanoha doing the same damn thing in seasons 1 and 2. So don't get mad at me when I call them out on the hypocrisy of it.
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Old 2013-12-30, 00:58   Link #8172
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They have similar protagonists, but Force is very much unlike the first season and As, even though it tries to have similar plot points.
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Old 2013-12-30, 01:00   Link #8173
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So what? I'm not talking about the similarity between season 1 and Force. I'm just saying that Thoma is extraordinarily similar to Nanoha herself, particularly with the idealism.
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Old 2013-12-30, 02:27   Link #8174
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I feel it has some relevance. You wouldn't put Nanoha as she started out in this as the lead, would you?
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Old 2013-12-31, 18:59   Link #8175
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It was mentioned the gender as a key difference between Thoma and Nanoha, how about age? In S1 Nanoha is 9 or 10 and Thoma... actually don't know.
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Old 2013-12-31, 19:23   Link #8176
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Thoma is about 16, which is still typically treated as a "child" in Japanese standards (they don't see teenagers as young adults, but bigger children, essentially). Age still doesn't factor into it much--frankly speaking, it's experiences that do, and as far as magical adventures goes, he's still on his first one, much like Nanoha was in season 1.

Nanoha by StrikerS and Force has lost much of her naivety, thus giving her scenes like blasting Dieci without talking to her (which is right up there in Bureau modus operandi, if you examine how Lindy and Chrono treated matters). She's had 10 years of experience by then.

Thoma, on the other hand, was until recently a civilian. On top of that, Thoma knows what it's like to do what's needed to survive--he was on his own for a couple years before Subaru found him. Compound that on top of having experienced what the virus does to someone and yes, he will empathize and try to reach out to the Huckebein and other infected individuals, who are as much a victim to their circumstances as Thoma is, arguably even more so, as they didn't have people to reach out to when they first went through their ordeals.
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Old 2014-01-01, 03:19   Link #8177
Justin_Brett
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Stuff like that is what makes him unique, yeah. Hopefully it becomes more emphasized once Force resumes.
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Old 2014-01-01, 04:01   Link #8178
Akiyoshi
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Stuff like that is what makes him unique, yeah. Hopefully it becomes more emphasized once Force resumes.
Yup, aside from some core similitudes Tohma is his own separate character.

Happy New Year by the way xD
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Old 2014-01-03, 20:54   Link #8179
Gx Hero
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Well if Thoma is still naive like Nanoha was in season 1 can we expect him to turn out like Nanoha in the 'befriending' department. After all he see's the hulkabien as not bad guys, maybe he will make them talk to him like Nanoha did Fate-chan.
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Old 2014-01-04, 05:01   Link #8180
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Considering how well we've seen him fight, he has his work cut out for him.
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