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Old 2013-12-31, 16:16   Link #1921
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
though I guess now that you mention it, there might be other problems/hints that Aleister didn't let on...

Also, the biggest question for me remains the following: Why didn't Aleister dispose of Fiamma when he could have...? Is it really just because he didn't know Fiamma was there... and how did he not get noticed by the Underline later on in NT...
This! this is probably one of my few things I kinda dislike on the series. The enemy won't say dead unless otherwise said so. kamachi likes his character(specially biribiri) that he doesn't kill them.

honestly. I don't see any reason why would Aleister would let Fiamma live. Look at what happen. Fiamma got rescued by Ollerus and it looks like because of this. Ollerus got a clearer idea on what is imagine breaker, what is Aleister's plan or his goal.

Isn't that something that would hinder and will further make his plan fail?

Aleister's plan is already crumbling but he isn't doing anything.....


sorry I don't know anymore.

As for religion. Aleister uses his own religion. it just happens to be that Aiwass was still a christian angel or an angel created by god but Aiwass just happen to ascend to the level where he is free from god.

The level of awareness or free from the natural laws of the world is what makes Aiwass beautiful to Aleister.

The word FREE. Which is the core of Horus aoen. Free will or freedom or whatever you can call it.

And if you look at the plan Aleister is cooking in the beginning. he wants to envelop the world with the artificial heaven and what does artificial heaven do aside from it makes magicians bleed when they uses magic?

it stops other worldly interference.

You need those myths or based to used magic. Aside from making it impossible to produce and use mana. Aleister is completely isolating the world from other worlds.

Making it stand on its own.

making it free

free

-------------------

though you can also probably argue that he also has other motives but the immediate effects is the world is altered and free from otherworldly or supernatural occurrence that is based on magic.
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Old 2013-12-31, 19:21   Link #1922
dniv
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
This! this is probably one of my few things I kinda dislike on the series. The enemy won't say dead unless otherwise said so. kamachi likes his character(specially biribiri) that he doesn't kill them.

honestly. I don't see any reason why would Aleister would let Fiamma live. Look at what happen. Fiamma got rescued by Ollerus and it looks like because of this. Ollerus got a clearer idea on what is imagine breaker, what is Aleister's plan or his goal.

Isn't that something that would hinder and will further make his plan fail?

Aleister's plan is already crumbling but he isn't doing anything.....


sorry I don't know anymore.

As for religion. Aleister uses his own religion. it just happens to be that Aiwass was still a christian angel or an angel created by god but Aiwass just happen to ascend to the level where he is free from god.

The level of awareness or free from the natural laws of the world is what makes Aiwass beautiful to Aleister.

The word FREE. Which is the core of Horus aoen. Free will or freedom or whatever you can call it.

And if you look at the plan Aleister is cooking in the beginning. he wants to envelop the world with the artificial heaven and what does artificial heaven do aside from it makes magicians bleed when they uses magic?

it stops other worldly interference.

You need those myths or based to used magic. Aside from making it impossible to produce and use mana. Aleister is completely isolating the world from other worlds.

Making it stand on its own.

making it free

free

-------------------

though you can also probably argue that he also has other motives but the immediate effects is the world is altered and free from otherworldly or supernatural occurrence that is based on magic.
Did you really read NT 8? You didn't right? That had a pretty beautiful scene about death, (if you skip the first part which I guess you wouldn't like), then you would enjoy pretty much everything else which is amazing (even though I also liked the first part...).

Also, I doubt that Aleister doesn't know or is unaware of the fact Fiamma is alive. I'm guessing he is actually aware of his survival. Considering what he did to Birdway when she made fun of him, he definitely could sense Fiamma I'm sure with one of his machines if Fiamma were in the city, especially since I don't think Fiamma knows about the underline (though he might from Aqua?...)

Anyway, for some reason, I am getting the feeling that Fiamma is just another unknowing pawn of Aleister. I don't think, given Aleister's immense power, that he is just sitting in a corner after what he did... I think he's planning something and assembling pieces in order to be able to restart the plan.

Also, considering that he was aware of GREMLIN before it did anything (he could tell that there was factors outside of the necessary range of expectation in his plan) I feel like he is more capable than what GREMLIN thinks. It is completely possible though that he was aware of Ollerus and Othinus' actions at the end of Volume 22... He knew who Ollerus was from the SS2... so understanding what happened there might mean that he is aware of all of the different threats to his position.

As a main point of contention, I feel like Aleister actually could do everything by himself, but he is limited by the fact that Academy City cannot find out that he is a magician, or else they would want to turn on him. I think this is a possibility... because it would be possible that both sides would think that he is a traitor at that point This might explain why we haven't seen that much of him lately...

It's also possible he was aware of the Kihara's manipulation of events in Academy City and he was trying to fix that at the same time as he was trying to deal with GREMLIN...

The biggest thing bothering me though is when he left briefly and came back... I'm sure that's foreshadowing something very important, and I feel like it should be important in book 9 or book 10, given when the Fiamma foreshadowing happened, so I'm slightly confused, and amused that there's probably something big going on that no one knows about... I wonder where else he could have gone... My other question is that if it's true that he can be in multiple places at once... why'd he even go somewhere else at all.................
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Old 2013-12-31, 23:02   Link #1923
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Pretty sure Ollerus adressed that.
Quote:
"At least he looks like he's breathing."

"It's purely because of his ability. There was no need to hold back then,"

The man replied, and then looked at the face of the man on the ground.
Crowley underestimated Fiamma's strength is all.
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Old 2014-01-01, 00:51   Link #1924
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Did you really read NT 8? You didn't right? That had a pretty beautiful scene about death, (if you skip the first part which I guess you wouldn't like), then you would enjoy pretty much everything else which is amazing (even though I also liked the first part...).
Is the one who died an important character? like biribiri for example?

which I doubt possible.

Last time I checked. We thought Tsuchimikado died but it looks like he just fake his death.

As for Aleister underestimating Fiamma's strength to survive then do you really think Aleister won't know that he lived? its already been addressed by dniv but I think Aleister just plan to use Fiamma too but the question is HOW?
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Old 2014-01-01, 01:04   Link #1925
dniv
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Is the one who died an important character? like biribiri for example?

which I doubt possible.

Last time I checked. We thought Tsuchimikado died but it looks like he just fake his death.

As for Aleister underestimating Fiamma's strength to survive then do you really think Aleister won't know that he lived? its already been addressed by dniv but I think Aleister just plan to use Fiamma too but the question is HOW?
It was that magic Kihara who was an important character in NT 4. The sad story involving him and Maria was really well written actually. He was a key member of Gremlin and was therefore an important character. Just because Kamachi hasn't chosen to kill of one of his main characters, doesn't make the series bad.

I don't like ATK because I feel like it purposely kills way too many characters in order to look darker and edgier...

Tsuchimikado never actually was hinted to have died. I'm pretty sure we were supposed to assume that was faked.

Also are you saying the sisters weren't important characters? I'm pretty sure Accelerator's character development depends on their deaths... so death is actually important in the series...
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Old 2014-01-01, 01:35   Link #1926
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
It was that magic Kihara who was an important character in NT 4. The sad story involving him and Maria was really well written actually. He was a key member of Gremlin and was therefore an important character. Just because Kamachi hasn't chosen to kill of one of his main characters, doesn't make the series bad.

I don't like ATK because I feel like it purposely kills way too many characters in order to look darker and edgier...

Tsuchimikado never actually was hinted to have died. I'm pretty sure we were supposed to assume that was faked.

Also are you saying the sisters weren't important characters? I'm pretty sure Accelerator's character development depends on their deaths... so death is actually important in the series...
I like darker and edgier story which makes me sad for index.

I said it before and I will say it again. Index is half half for me. It shows it can go extreme (like Izzard in vol 2, accelerator in vol 3 and so on) but it stops halfway through when important characters are the one in line.

Are you talking about Kagun? isn't he alive? or turn Einhenjar? I thought I remember him going back with Maria carrying the pregnant Freyja?

well is Kagun really that important? does he make a big impact like Fiamma?

Terra died but overall he isn't important.

Vento still live and actually help in the later part of the story but isn't his inside meshed up when he attacked academy city?

I tell you. Index has TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BIG! character map that Kamachi can per say "lessen them" XD

He is not kawakami that makes every character that shows up have great development and still shows up as important and will be remembered.

Kamachi is keep on making new character but they are just being left behind. If he is just leaving them behind then why not just kill them?

though then again. Killing a character without development or importance won't have an effect to the story.

Which makes Fiamma's death a huge impact.

Aleister CAN KILL him but left behind.

Fiamma still has some use which makes him important to be left dead. If he kill him then he is a wasted character but it also shows that important characters will not die on his story

well I will left the death of characters discussion aside because like I said before in Index.

IT ALWAYS END IN HAPPY ENDING.

we won't see a madoka homura type of ending here so no biribiri rebellion.
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Old 2014-01-01, 01:48   Link #1927
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Be careful with all that edgy, wouldn't want to cut yourself
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Old 2014-01-01, 06:21   Link #1928
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i must agree, one of the major points i cant stand in the LN is the fact that nearly every adventure was solved in a happy ending......

example: vol. 16/17/18 than WW3,

they fight in a death/life situration and after the final punch the enemy survives and all ends in a happy ending.....

not involves NT3/4, but this volumes wasnt important, what we saw was that GREMLIN will do bad things to reach their goal BUT would we let this volumes ut nothing would change the story, IF is theri a bad ending than it isnt really important for the overall story,

NT5/6 like always, happyendings everywhere, at least one of the major chars should die, a reason was their fräulain kreutune which should eat last orders brain, would she succeed this whole story would gain really good changes....but every important part ill be solved and not one pwerson will die......

Vol 14 wasnt important therefore not a complete happy end (terras death)

and than NT7 would someone completely skip this volume it wouldnt change ANYTHING in the story, realy nothing

NT 8, one of the most annoying volumes ever (at least for me), nearly half of the volume was useless, than the other half which showed only touma who fought agaisnt the preggo girl...every other fight was cut even before it could start....

BUT if i trust the spoilers for NT 9 than this will also end in a happy ending.......
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Old 2014-01-01, 06:37   Link #1929
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Well, it's been long and Kamachi won't kill any of the good guys, I agree with tsunade666, Kamachi could learn from Kawakami regarding how to make characters still look important even if they're not on the spotlight, cuz you know something is wrong with it when a secundary character like Mikoto has such popularity despite not having any big impact on the plot line.
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Old 2014-01-01, 06:50   Link #1930
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Well if Mikoto didn't exist, Touma would have died in NT3 just saying. Pretty much the same with the many side characters currently alive. I don't really know what's you guys' definition of "important", but what's going on in this series is more than fine with my current standards.
Anyways, popularity is something subjective, who said only the main and super important characters have the right to be popular?

Also, what's with this dark and edgy thing? I have to agree with dniv on that one. I honestly think killing characters for the sake of looking mature is just trying too hard to be what you aren't or what you can't be. In other words, it's just cheesy and bad (one of the reasons why I respect Kamachi).
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Old 2014-01-01, 07:03   Link #1931
Chaos2Frozen
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If your reason to kill off a character is "just because", then you know it's just for the sake of being dark. If having a happy ending is a negative point then you know it's just for the sake of being edgy.

But honestly that's the direction all entertainment shows are heading, not only Anime. In the west the big named shows are "Walking Dead", "Game of Throne" and "Breaking Bad", shows which pride itself on killing off any characters at any time. In Anime it's shows "Madoka", "Fate/Zero" and "Attack on Titans" etc... Notice any similarities?

That's just how things are now.
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Old 2014-01-01, 07:55   Link #1932
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Well, it was like that too then in the 90's, I was used to it like Saint Seiya series(its current sequel doesn't fears killing characters despite being aimed to an even younger audience).

Death doesn't automatically makes a series dark for the sake of darkness, it also can be meaningful and beautiful.
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:02   Link #1933
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Well, it was like that too then in the 90's, I was used to it like Saint Seiya series(its current sequel doesn't fears killing characters despite being aimed to an even younger audience).

Death doesn't automatically makes a series dark for the sake of darkness, it also can be meaningful and beautiful.
Not if your reason for doing so is just to avoid a "happy ending" as if it's a plague.
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:02   Link #1934
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take a look on how oda kills off ace and whitebeard.thier death was significant and ideal compared to snks killing of 3 members of the recon squad
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:05   Link #1935
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^...Personally I don't mind because I'm not following that series, but you might want to be careful with that
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:06   Link #1936
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Not if your reason for doing so is just to avoid a happy ending as if it's a plague.
I didn't say anything about happy endings though.

However, there is no perfect ending, it can be ideal but not real. Let's not forget Index series isn't about black and white but gray(s) as well.

@Niko
That's why I like Oda's, Kurumada's, and Togashi's series.
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:12   Link #1937
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take a look on how oda kills off ace and whitebeard.thier death was significant and ideal compared to snks killing of 3 members of the recon squad
This I cried for this one. We know and felt that feeling. We sympathize and will miss them. even if we don't know much about whitebeard. His death paves way for the future generation. Its a meaningful death.

killing something for sake of making it edgy is crappy for me. Shingeki massacre is crappy unless the death of the character has an OVERALL IMPACT ON THE STORY.

let's use the one mentioned like fate;zero and madoka. the death of characters there aren't just killing the characters for the sake of making it edgy and not happy ending. ITS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. The deaths drive the story forward.

Which is why I ask. Is kagun the one who died in vol 8? because if I remember it right he was revived by Othinus. Is Kagun important? will he be miss? will his death be significant and drive the story forward?

Killing someone for the sake of making it dark is bad writing.

look at kagami's work of itsuten and denyuuden. The development of Ryner is glorious.

look at butcher's work. The drive of homu homu isn't "fake" and felt "real"

I'm just saying that if you people point out the killing people makes the story crappy then I will point out that senseless killing is indeed crappy writing. But if killing someone will move on the story like the death of Mami then its not senseless death at all.
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:18   Link #1938
Chaos2Frozen
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I didn't say anything about happy endings though.

However, there is no perfect ending, it can be ideal but not real. Let's not forget Index series isn't about black and white but gray(s) as well.
It was referencing more to the other posts above you, my apologies- I wasn't clear on that.

Anyway, while nobody died on screen, I would like to point out that this is still a story full of child abuse and violence. Just because nobody died doesn't mean it's somehow all good inside.

Look at Log Horizon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666
Which is why I ask. Is kagun the one who died in vol 8? because if I remember it right he was revived by Othinus. Is Kagun important? will he be miss? will his death be significant and drive the story forward?
Technically he's living on borrowed time- he's right now just one step short of being a mindless zombie acting out on instinct...Even if that instinct is mostly motivated by good intentions.

His death would move one character and serves as her character development. It doesn't have to completely alter the plot, but if you accept character development as a good enough reason for death, then yes his death has meaning.
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:26   Link #1939
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Accelerator had such a screwed up life for a start, even if he find his happy ending, he's going to be carrying around a lot of baggage till the day he dies.
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:29   Link #1940
desrtsku
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(For information, half of the death in SnK directly affect the characters and have a long term effect on the plot. Only the other half is pointless so far, I'll give you that, but your statements are still technically false.)

@Tsunade No one died in Vol 8, and no one should have. Kagun was never revived, he is still dead and is just a walking mass of flesh now.
Quote:
Is Kagun important? will he be miss? will his death be significant and drive the story forward?
Yes he freaking is, he was helping making the spear. He also saved Touma & Co, mind you. Moreover, a character moved on in her life thanks to his death.
But that's not the point. The point is that there's no reason to add more death than there already is, because the plot is already fine as it is. Toaru is a story where death isn't even that necessary, it's a story about saving people not killing them.
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