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Old 2014-01-18, 04:41   Link #9561
Sumeragi
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Then what exactly happened?
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Old 2014-01-18, 04:42   Link #9562
hakazee
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Originally Posted by havensgate View Post
i dont think rupture is viable as strategic class magic, the reason is too inefficient.
material burst only need one drop of water to destroy ship in yokohama incident, a 12.5mm bullet to destroy a detachment fleet, and one kg flag to destroy a full fleet. And rupture power will not able to achieve that, regardless how powerfull the magician.
even against mist dispersal, rupture still hold no candle

and rupture power come from sudden expanding volume of gas that come from liquid disintegration, not combustion, so "rupture"ing water, blood, oil, and liquid fuel will have same result
If you're talking about efficiency then I have question about Deep Abyss.


Quote:
Her magic 'Abyss' was capable of creating a spherical depression which can extend from a few tens of meters to several kilometers. Amongst Movement Systematic magics it possesses its own classification, Fluid Control. Vessels caught within the magical zone at sea slide down the steep walls of water, tumbling about, then upon cancellation of the magic are swallowed up by massive waves as the sea returns to a horizontal plane. The hemisphere can be created up to a kilometer in depth, easily catching submerged submarines as well.

This is a strategic class magic theoretically capable of eradicating entire fleets with a single blow, however;

'Abyss' can also be invoked upon subterranean ground water, potentially allowing it to collapse vast swathes of structures as well.
Efficient ? I don't think so.

But Abyss is strategic class magic.


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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Then what exactly happened?
You mean this one ?

Spoiler for “geojedo”:

Last edited by hakazee; 2014-01-18 at 05:00.
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Old 2014-01-18, 07:38   Link #9563
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My question is How much Psions Material Burst need to convert 1kg of water/dust/metals (any kind of material) into energy? How much does this magic affect Tatsuya body or mind? Any fatigue or aftereffect?

Lets say that Tatsuya wants to change the maps and in a frenzy he decided that he will convert 20kg of material into energy at the center of the USNA... will he easily do this ?

EDIT: Masaki cant do nothing against an entire fleet... What will he do? Kill the guys on the ship just boiling the water? Not viable...
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Old 2014-01-18, 07:53   Link #9564
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Originally Posted by iCloudz7 View Post
My question is How much Psions Material Burst need to convert 1kg of water/dust/metals (any kind of material) into energy? How much does this magic affect Tatsuya body or mind? Any fatigue or aftereffect?

Lets say that Tatsuya wants to change the maps and in a frenzy he decided that he will convert 20kg of material into energy at the center of the USNA... will he easily do this ?
I would guess yes to him being able to do 20 kg easily, although there are no solid numbers to base that on. Psion cost isn't something so clearly defined, but Tatsuya has what is described as an absolutely unreal amount. Also, there is no indication that MB costs him much in the way of psions or mental fatigue, and I don't think size would increase the cost that much if at all(though again, opinion). Rather than destroying the USNA, he could probably crack the word like an egg.

Its actually probably a good thing that he lost his stronger emotions before the family really started heaping on the emotional abuse. For anyone who has ever seen Armageddon, its like the guy straddling a nuke and treating it like a joke. They are really way too stupid to be realistic.
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Last edited by bludvein; 2014-01-18 at 08:03.
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Old 2014-01-18, 08:15   Link #9565
CatRules
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iCloudz7 View Post
EDIT: Masaki cant do nothing against an entire fleet... What will he do? Kill the guys on the ship just boiling the water? Not viable...
why kill the man? just bomb the ship! Rapture is machine's worst fear too, remember?


*Added: Food for thought
What do you guys think is First Institute's specialty?
Since both Ichihana and Ichijou come from there, I think it might be "magic that can directly interfere with human body."

What do you think?

*Added2: Question
Can Tatsuya decompose a body without destroying Edios shell first?
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Old 2014-01-18, 08:38   Link #9566
Awrya
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Originally Posted by CatRules View Post
why kill the man? just bomb the ship! Rapture is machine's worst fear too, remember?
Modern magic needs a definite target to cast magic upon it, which is also restricted by visual confirmation for most magicians. The fire range of a battle ship is 20km as stated in Vol.8, there is no way Ichijou can 'bomb' the ship from 20km.
Tatsuya is able to Material Burst from so far because he has the Third Eye for visual confirmation as well as Elemental Sight to search in the information dimension, Masaki can't do anything with just visual confirmation.

A battleship is also massive, he probably can't cast Rupture on the whole ship and he'd have to get into range to cast magic on it in the first place. Why would you steer a battleship into medium to close range for a single magician to damage the enemy fleet when you can just as well bombard the enemy from afar?

And if the enemy fleet lands on Japanese grounds, would you rather have the talented magician fight on ground where he can fully utilize his abilities or have him on a ship in the ocean where his effectiveness is questionable at best?
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Old 2014-01-18, 08:42   Link #9567
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Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
I would guess yes to him being able to do 20 kg easily, although there are no solid numbers to base that on. Psion cost isn't something so clearly defined, but Tatsuya has what is described as an absolutely unreal amount. Also, there is no indication that MB costs him much in the way of psions or mental fatigue, and I don't think size would increase the cost that much if at all(though again, opinion). Rather than destroying the USNA, he could probably crack the word like an egg.

Its actually probably a good thing that he lost his stronger emotions before the family really started heaping on the emotional abuse. For anyone who has ever seen Armageddon, its like the guy straddling a nuke and treating it like a joke. They are really way too stupid to be realistic.
nuke? guy , this is way worst than a simple nuke. If he corverted a car/ship into energy he would have destroyed at least japan(considering natural phenomenos it is going to cause too).
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Old 2014-01-18, 09:17   Link #9568
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Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
Modern magic needs a definite target to cast magic upon it, which is also restricted by visual confirmation for most magicians. The fire range of a battle ship is 20km as stated in Vol.8, there is no way Ichijou can 'bomb' the ship from 20km.
Tatsuya is able to Material Burst from so far because he has the Third Eye for visual confirmation as well as Elemental Sight to search in the information dimension, Masaki can't do anything with just visual confirmation.

A battleship is also massive, he probably can't cast Rupture on the whole ship and he'd have to get into range to cast magic on it in the first place. Why would you steer a battleship into medium to close range for a single magician to damage the enemy fleet when you can just as well bombard the enemy from afar?

And if the enemy fleet lands on Japanese grounds, would you rather have the talented magician fight on ground where he can fully utilize his abilities or have him on a ship in the ocean where his effectiveness is questionable at best?

You said he cann't use magic from afar because he doesn't have ES.
Then, how are you going to explain Mio's Deep Abyss?
That magic can be casted on underground water too. You think JSDF dug a hole and took her there just to cast it?

btw, I think the reason tat cann't use MB from longer than 20 km in Vol 8 doesn't relate to visual image(of cause he saw the fleet coming while ago) but the reason might be "the bullet he cast MB on(to make a suitable level of damage)" cann't reach farther than 20 km.
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Old 2014-01-18, 10:29   Link #9569
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Hey now that I think of it (because i'm re-reading again) erika tells her brother that tat's is 101, but kazama intentionally never gave his unit name, miyuki didn't tell her and tat's wasn't even around, while there is always that chance that they could tell her later I doubt it same for finding out via research(since 101 has a high information restriction) so how did she know.
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Old 2014-01-18, 10:43   Link #9570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatRules View Post
You said he cann't use magic from afar because he doesn't have ES.
Then, how are you going to explain Mio's Deep Abyss?
That magic can be casted on underground water too. You think JSDF dug a hole and took her there just to cast it?

btw, I think the reason tat cann't use MB from longer than 20 km in Vol 8 doesn't relate to visual image(of cause he saw the fleet coming while ago) but the reason might be "the bullet he cast MB on(to make a suitable level of damage)" cann't reach farther than 20 km.
It has been stated that unlike other mages Tatsuya doesn't have the same type of range limitations as he targets trough the Idea (information dimension) so he always knows where his target is other mages have to have some way of sensing where their target is Mio is likey able to "feel" the locations of large bodies of water and visibility on the open sea is pretty vast. And it is also worth noting that strategic class mages are by and far all exceptionally talented and gifted people with unique magic. Masaki just doesn't make the cut .
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Old 2014-01-18, 10:50   Link #9571
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakazee View Post
Spoiler for “geojedo”:
Okay..... so it's 20 megatons against the most important naval port on the Korean peninsula, effectively killing at least 400,000 people if this was the pre-WW3 population from Busan to Goseong and from Geoje to Miryang.

I can see why Koreans would consider this anti-Korean, never mind the problem of how Korea is annexed.


BTW, is this the web or published version?
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Old 2014-01-18, 11:00   Link #9572
iCloudz7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
Hey now that I think of it (because i'm re-reading again) erika tells her brother that tat's is 101, but kazama intentionally never gave his unit name, miyuki didn't tell her and tat's wasn't even around, while there is always that chance that they could tell her later I doubt it same for finding out via research(since 101 has a high information restriction) so how did she know.
Probably because there were rumours about the 101 that was lead by Kazama so It is normal for her to make that conjuction.

Also remember, the Chiba Family has strong ties with the military though Tatsuya information is top secret thanks to the Yotsuba.

Last edited by iCloudz7; 2014-01-18 at 11:23.
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Old 2014-01-18, 11:24   Link #9573
babbo3d
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Originally Posted by iCloudz7 View Post
Probably because there were rumours about the 101 that was lead by Kazama so It is normal for her to make that conjuction.

Also remember the Chiba Family has strong ties with the military though Tatsuya information is top secret thanks to the Yotsuba.
Chiba family has more influence in the police, and even among people deeply involve in the defence force it is a rumor at best so knowing the comand hierarchy is a different matter and erika defitnely didn't know kazama to the point that her brother was the one that ended telling her about him,.so while the possibility is not zero it is highly unlikely.
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Old 2014-01-18, 11:26   Link #9574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatRules View Post
You said he cann't use magic from afar because he doesn't have ES.
Then, how are you going to explain Mio's Deep Abyss?
That magic can be casted on underground water too. You think JSDF dug a hole and took her there just to cast it?
We do not know whether Abyss requires specialized equipment to maximize efficiency like Lina's Brionac or Tatsuya's Third Eye.
Quote:
Also, we obtained critical combat data last night. Beeline range roughly 1200 meters. It is very rare to obtain data for long range magic that successfully sniped human targets at this range.
What we do know is that successfully sniping/killing a human from ~1200 meters is very rare, as in extremely difficult as stated in Vol.4.
Quote:
Yet, human beings are limited by the five senses as well as their experiences.
If the physical distance was very large, there would be a "distant" perception.
This perception of distance becomes a magic's "range".
With that knowledge in mind, magic also becomes less effective.
In the same volume we are told that while magic range has no limit, the range is limited by human senses.
Thus we can conclude that magicians capable of 'bombing' a ship from several kilometers away are limited to an extreme minority of specialized magicians.

Abyss is designed as a wide area magic, whereas Rupture is designed to target a single object as stated in Vol.7.
Quote:
Compared to "Rupture" that could instantaneously evaporate fluids, "Kyokan Jigoku" required time (nothing more than 30 seconds to a full minute) to increase fluid temperature. By paying the price in sheer firepower, this magic expanded the range from "target object" to "a wide area".
As stated earlier, the range of the magic depends on the user, if targeting a human from 1.2km is difficult, is targeting a (big) battleship from several kilometers easier?
We also know using Rapture on humans continuously exhausts the user considerably, does using it on humans or a battleship require more magic power?
Quote:
btw, I think the reason tat cann't use MB from longer than 20 km in Vol 8 doesn't relate to visual image(of cause he saw the fleet coming while ago) but the reason might be "the bullet he cast MB on(to make a suitable level of damage)" cann't reach farther than 20 km.
I was thinking of MB use to in Vol.7 with the use of the Third Eye, not Vol.8.
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Old 2014-01-18, 13:08   Link #9575
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Okay..... so it's 20 megatons against the most important naval port on the Korean peninsula, effectively killing at least 400,000 people if this was the pre-WW3 population from Busan to Goseong and from Geoje to Miryang.

I can see why Koreans would consider this anti-Korean, never mind the problem of how Korea is annexed.


BTW, is this the web or published version?
This is the published version.

Between the USNA (which annexed Canada), Russian taking over most of Central Europe, Great Asian Alliance (which is a re-imploded China re-forming and annexing Korea) and more than a few other things -- I can imagine why a lot of people that are more sensitive about these kind of things could be offended. That said, I think it's pretty clear from the author's perspective, that in this case Japan isn't exactly being painted with a halo either -- but protagonists are still protagonists!

The world as it is in 2095:
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

My personal feelings on it reminds me of "Code Geass" -- it's an alternate world of "what-ifs" that has enough of a foundation of world building underlying it that I'm nonplussed by these kinds of protestations. The most "unbelievable" part (other than fanciful magic and the like) is how quickly the international "magic community" came together and how effective they were at silencing nuclear weapons. "The UN (of magic) can't possibly be this cute capable!"
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Old 2014-01-18, 13:48   Link #9576
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
The most "unbelievable" part (other than fanciful magic and the like) is how quickly the international "magic community" came together and how effective they were at silencing nuclear weapons.
That's actually not that surprising to me at all. Nuclear weapons aren't really weapons that can be used. As such, if given a promising and flexible alternative which can see immediate use (and which doesn't immediately identify you as the culprit, unlike a nuclear weapon), nations would likely dive right in. Just look at the US and drones, for example. In other words, the reason they were so effective at "silencing" nuclear weapons is because they were such an effective replacement for them, and not because they brought some magical peace to the world.
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Old 2014-01-18, 14:00   Link #9577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
This is the published version.

Between the USNA (which annexed Canada), Russian taking over most of Central Europe, Great Asian Alliance (which is a re-imploded China re-forming and annexing Korea) and more than a few other things -- I can imagine why a lot of people that are more sensitive about these kind of things could be offended. That said, I think it's pretty clear from the author's perspective, that in this case Japan isn't exactly being painted with a halo either -- but protagonists are still protagonists!

The world as it is in 2095:
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

My personal feelings on it reminds me of "Code Geass" -- it's an alternate world of "what-ifs" that has enough of a foundation of world building underlying it that I'm nonplussed by these kinds of protestations. The most "unbelievable" part (other than fanciful magic and the like) is how quickly the international "magic community" came together and how effective they were at silencing nuclear weapons. "The UN (of magic) can't possibly be this cute capable!"
It's not like nuclear weapons were being used 24/7. Magicians were ordered to drop whatever they were doing to silence potential usage of nuclear weapons.
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Old 2014-01-18, 18:34   Link #9578
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Don't fiction writers all do this to 'simplify' the real world political climate into something more manageable? Breaking it down or consolidating into a handful of key players relevant to the plot.
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Old 2014-01-18, 19:05   Link #9579
fujin of shadows
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Don't fiction writers all do this to 'simplify' the real world political climate into something more manageable? Breaking it down or consolidating into a handful of key players relevant to the plot.
Amateur and fanfiction writers would do that, but experience writer would be able to portray the premise of their stories in a semi-realistic world with a semi-realistic political state.

Mahouka is a testament to that
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Old 2014-01-19, 00:48   Link #9580
babbo3d
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Originally Posted by hakazee View Post
Maybe the author don't know how far is 20 Megatons bomb.

Anyway, in this novel China, Korean, and States viewed as bad guy.
Look how they view the states.
That's not a bad guy is real life, in reality you don't leave a threat unattended because of ethics because after something happens it will ne to late, if it was a individual it might be fine but when you have to protect a country things like equal power just means they have a chance to destroy you.
to me vol.11 really cheapened strategic magic.
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