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Old 2014-01-15, 21:50   Link #33841
Leafsnail
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Actually, I'm not so sure on that bit. They may have tried to keep Battler in the dark so he could live - hence the hostage situation that Tohya vaguely recalled while writing Alliance. That way he would come out of it with a story that Kinzo went nuts and tried to murder his family, which would not be too implausible.

(note that if they left anyone other than Battler alive it would be impossible to craft a falsehood like this)
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Old 2014-01-18, 17:29   Link #33842
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I can't say I find your train of thought very plausible, Leafsnail.

According to the scene itself, the reason for targeting Rosa was that her gun had not been fired, so we know that as soon as Krauss had died, Kyrolf no longer cared about the gold. Committing murders more or less requires using the bomb to erase the evidence, and if you use the bomb, there's no gold, so Kyrolf was apparently really sold on the idea of the cash card.

You also suggest that there was "no way" of convicing Rosa, but ... I mean, Rosa's plan was sound. And while she was willing to try and convince Eva to sacrifice herself, if Kyrolf has sided with Eva instead of watching silently from across the room, it's reasonable to assume Rosa would have backed down.

Furthermore, it has literally only just occured to me that everybody makes a big to-do about how only Krauss can convert the gold, and it basically becomes unusable once he dies, even though Yasu is still in the damn room, and she was able to convert some of it just fine through Genji.
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Old 2014-01-18, 19:40   Link #33843
Leafsnail
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The part about Rosa isn't really important to my theory, I'm basically just restating what the scene tells us. The fact that Rosa hadn't fired is why Kyrie shoots her first, yeah.

The main thing I'm pointing out is that lots of other people knew (or had the potential to know) about the gold, and the cash card, and the scheme. As long as those people are alive it would be very difficult to get away with the gold or the cash card, because Gohda or whoever could tell the police about it.

e: They could also tell the police all about the bomb. This is the major problem with setting off the bomb without killing everyone.
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Old 2014-01-19, 21:28   Link #33844
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apparently there is going to be a umineko slot machine game
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Old 2014-01-19, 21:42   Link #33845
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apparently there is going to be a umineko slot machine game
y no anime remake?
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Old 2014-01-19, 22:17   Link #33846
Leafsnail
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Unless it violently explodes when you lose I'm not interested
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Old 2014-01-20, 03:14   Link #33847
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Unless it violently explodes when you lose I'm not interested
That'd be a spoiler!
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Old 2014-01-20, 15:10   Link #33848
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Old 2014-01-20, 19:27   Link #33849
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I know that there's a Pachinko Umineko game and the awesome thing of it is that as you play you can see Umineko scenes animated from Umineko and Umineko chiru with a different chara design from the anime... and from the little I saw the animated scenes seem cool.
It seems there's also an opening...

On a different theme... I was wondering about Ep 7 and the parallel between young Kinzo and Yasu so... what if in Rokkenjima Prime when the adults started shooting at each other Yasu, who like Kinzo previously believed she was searching for her death, got scared by the shooting and tried escaping?
Yes, yes, I know that Kinzo's story was biased toward Kinzo but maybe it was also a hint on what really happened on Prime. While everyone started killing everyone else Yasu realized maybe she wasn't so ready to die and tried escaping.
If she managed to do so because the adults were focused on each other and managed to warn someone then for Kyrie and Rudolf it becomes an imperative to kill everyone else because everyone else knows they murdered Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa... while previously they could hide the corpses, say they couldn't find Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva but that they had found a tunnel and then invite everyone in Kuwadorian where they would wait for the island to go KABOOM then they could fire the servant and adopt Eva and Jessica. George, I guess, is old enough to handle things on his own. They wouldn't have to share the bank account and would look a lot less suspicious because they could have so many people testifying they did nothing suspicious and maybe support them into pushing the blame on Kinzo or on Beatrice...
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Old 2014-01-20, 19:35   Link #33850
Leafsnail
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Wasn't it implied that Kinzo instigated the fighting between the Japanese and the Italians?

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previously they could hide the corpses, say they couldn't find Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva but that they had found a tunnel and then invite everyone in Kuwadorian where they would wait for the island to go KABOOM then they could fire the servant and adopt Eva and Jessica. George, I guess, is old enough to handle things on his own. They wouldn't have to share the bank account and would look a lot less suspicious because they could have so many people testifying they did nothing suspicious and maybe support them into pushing the blame on Kinzo or on Beatrice...
That really wouldn't have been an option, all the servants knew about Yasu's scheme according to Our Confession. They could say to the police "Yasu had this cash card, you should probably search Kyrie and Rudolf for it because they mysteriously were the only survivors of a trip to the room full of gold".
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Old 2014-01-20, 19:59   Link #33851
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Wasn't it implied that Kinzo instigated the fighting between the Japanese and the Italians?
Bern's red truth was more about him wanting to steal the gold than instigating the fight.

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"S, steal the Italians' gold, you say? You coward, Ushiromiya! And you call yourself a soldier of the Empire?!!"
But yes, by suggedting to steal it he might have instigated the fight.

Technically Yasu too instigated the fight as she presented the adults with gold and guns... although it's also possible she couldn't guess the adults would start murdering each other over the gold.

This still won't deny the possibility that, although she planned to murder someone, when the real murdering started, she had a panic attack and tried to escape... or that the same could have happened to Kinzo.

Kinzo might have also been honest in saying he enrolled into the military because he hated his life and longed to die but didn't have the gut to pull the trigger himself... then saw Beatrice and decided that getting her and the gold was a better option and abandoned himself to a different roulette of fate.

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That really wouldn't have been an option, all the servants knew about Yasu's scheme according to Our Confession. They could say to the police "Yasu had this cash card, you should probably search Kyrie and Rudolf for it because they mysteriously were the only survivors of a trip to the room full of gold".
Would they really speak about it? Talking about it would require them to explain many things in which they were accomplices, like closing their eyes when Kinzo committed incest, hiding Yasu from his family, hiding Kinzo's death, hiding how they handed the money to Yasu and how Yasu bribed them into playing in his game or how Kinzo kept some illegal gold in a room and they knew it (and their paycheek could come from it). Genji and Nanjo might also be forced to confess that Yasu actually planned to murder people for real and they were bribed/blackmailed into keeping silent.
Kumasawa and Gohda though probably don't know much about Yasu's plans as they were thinking it was all a joke.
And Rudolf and Kyrie wouldn't say they were the only survivors, just that they got there later and couldn't find the others.
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Old 2014-01-20, 20:28   Link #33852
Leafsnail
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The Kinzo/Yasu thing seems like an interesting parallel. I guess you could go one further and include Kyrie's eventual resolve to kill Asumu as something similar.

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Would they really speak about it? Talking about it would require them to explain many things in which they were accomplices, like closing their eyes when Kinzo committed incest, hiding Yasu from his family, hiding Kinzo's death, hiding how they handed the money to Yasu and how Yasu bribed them into playing in his game or how Kinzo kept some illegal gold in a room and they knew it (and their paycheek could come from it). Genji and Nanjo might also be forced to confess that Yasu actually planned to murder people for real and they were bribed/blackmailed into keeping silent.
Kumasawa and Gohda though probably don't know much about Yasu's plans as they were thinking it was all a joke.
And Rudolf and Kyrie wouldn't say they were the only survivors, just that they got there later and couldn't find the others.
I don't think anyone other than maybe Genji knew about the plan to murder for real - Nanjo generally seems surprised that people are dying for real on the game-boards, and only stays silent because he's scared.

But what the servants probably do know about would still make it difficult for Kyrie. They'd probably know:
- About the gold
- That Yasu hands out cash cards (in particular, they could tell the police about this and make it impossible for Kyrie to smuggle the card out)
- About the bomb (at the very least Gohda probably would - he doesn't seem to particularly want or need money and he dislikes Yasu, so he must have been threatened)
- That the adults were all attempting to solve the epitaph together and went off to find the gold together

I don't think Gohda would hesitate to reveal everything to the police if a lethal incident occurred, and the other conspirators probably would too if pressured. If this happened then Kyrie definitely wouldn't get any money and could also be in legal trouble.

e: In fact Gohda is really grateful to Natsuhi and Krauss for giving him another chance to do the job he loves, the idea that he'd help cover up their incredibly suspicious disappearances seems unlikely.
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Old 2014-01-21, 17:19   Link #33853
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
The Kinzo/Yasu thing seems like an interesting parallel. I guess you could go one further and include Kyrie's eventual resolve to kill Asumu as something similar.
In a way it is similar as Yasu planned to kill everyone but in the end didn't, same as Kyrie who planned to kill Asumu but in the end didn't.

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I don't think anyone other than maybe Genji knew about the plan to murder for real - Nanjo generally seems surprised that people are dying for real on the game-boards, and only stays silent because he's scared.
Genji was planned to be an accomplice in blackmailing Krauss and Natsuhi by threatening to kill them, so I'll say he must know Yasu is doing something seriously wrong. Also he likely knew in the first twilight of Ep 1 that Yasu didn't buy any body double and when he finds Nanjo and Kumasawa in Ep 2 he must have understood they were dead and yet didn't warn Rosa or Battler to escape.

Nanjo checks the bodies right in the first twilight of Ep 1 and knows they're real dead people yet when Hideyoshi and Kanon say Shannon is also dead he suspects nothing. I'll say it's more likely Nanjo was blackmailed as Natsuhi was in Ep 5. There are various things for which Nanjo can be blamed, starting from helping Beatrice Castiglioni and ending with hiding Kinzo's death.
Nanjo also has a sick grandchild for which he likely needs money and is job. He's an easy target to blackmail.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
But what the servants probably do know about would still make it difficult for Kyrie. They'd probably know:
- About the gold
- That Yasu hands out cash cards (in particular, they could tell the police about this and make it impossible for Kyrie to smuggle the card out)
- About the bomb (at the very least Gohda probably would - he doesn't seem to particularly want or need money and he dislikes Yasu, so he must have been threatened)
- That the adults were all attempting to solve the epitaph together and went off to find the gold together
They can't talk about the gold or the cash cards though, or they would be accomplices in hiding the gold and this would also raise the issue of how Yasu could hand cash cards. Did she steal the money from the Ushiromiya? If that's the case, and in a way it is, by knowing it they're accomplices.

With this two confessions only they would likely become even more suspicious than Kyrie. And if someone discovers Yasu sent them money they would be even more suspicious.

The problem about the adults is related to the story Kyrie and Rudolf tell and how much the servants know about the adults' treasure hunt. If they didn't witness them leave they didn't know they left.
After all Eva found the gold without anyone realizing, Rosa also found it on her own but after Eva and no one noticed. Rudolf and Kyrie can say the same happened here. They spend some time together but couldn't solve the epitaph, then had an idea but, by the time they reached the chapel, the door was already open and no one was there.
They can even wait the morning or the afternoon of the day after and then either pretend to search for the other adults, who solved the epitaph without them, or 'solve the epitaph' and find the open door.

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I don't think Gohda would hesitate to reveal everything to the police if a lethal incident occurred, and the other conspirators probably would too if pressured. If this happened then Kyrie definitely wouldn't get any money and could also be in legal trouble.

e: In fact Gohda is really grateful to Natsuhi and Krauss for giving him another chance to do the job he loves, the idea that he'd help cover up their incredibly suspicious disappearances seems unlikely.
Gohda was bribed by Yasu into taking part to a murder game. He might think their disappearence was part of the game and when the island goes Kaboom he can think to an incident, like the police does. Or at blaming Yasu.

Really, with Yasu owning money enough to bribe people into playing to a murder game she becomes the most suspicious one. Gohda might even think she planned to kill everyone and that they escaped out of luck.

Also if he were to bring up he'd been bribed into taking part to such prank he becomes suspicious as well. And with the police finding the bottles Yasu would look even more suspicious.

So, really, I don't think the servants could or would point their fingers at Rudolf and Kyrie as it would backfire on them too... and they've a better target to be suspicious of.
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:48   Link #33854
theforgot3n1
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Sorry if I'm just barging in, but can someone enlighten me on what the "truth" of umineko is supposed to be? Just read the VN, but I'm honestly not a thorough reader (not much time) and more than figuring out answers myself I enjoy sewing the web of truth together in my brain with the help of answers.

Less of a question: It's really annoying how the narrator is constantly going haywire. Simple questions like "Did Jessica ever meet Shannon/Kanon" that would normally have an obvious answer aren't granted one due to the fickle narration. It's quite cruel of ryukishi.
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Old 2014-01-21, 23:11   Link #33855
AuraTwilight
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We don't know, for sure. The 'Truth' was never revealed, so as to leave it up to interpretation.
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Old 2014-01-22, 06:58   Link #33856
Leafsnail
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It's strongly hinted that the ep7 Tea Party (or something very like it) is what Eva wrote in her diary though. And thst's explicitly stated in the manga.
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Old 2014-01-22, 07:42   Link #33857
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Originally Posted by theforgot3n1 View Post
Sorry if I'm just barging in, but can someone enlighten me on what the "truth" of umineko is supposed to be? Just read the VN, but I'm honestly not a thorough reader (not much time) and more than figuring out answers myself I enjoy sewing the web of truth together in my brain with the help of answers.

Less of a question: It's really annoying how the narrator is constantly going haywire. Simple questions like "Did Jessica ever meet Shannon/Kanon" that would normally have an obvious answer aren't granted one due to the fickle narration. It's quite cruel of ryukishi.
If you're looking for an in-depth analysis then I would definitely recommend checking out the Stupid Goats readthrough. It's kind of really really long (and ongoing), but the heart of Umineko was never meant to be something you could summarise in a few paragraphs.

This interview is also very much worth reading if you haven't seen it already.
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:35   Link #33858
theforgot3n1
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We don't know, for sure. The 'Truth' was never revealed, so as to leave it up to interpretation.
I see. Though, supposedly, many have read it and reached the "truth". Shouldn't there be a way to explain it somehow simply. It's just so difficult finding time nowadays to really get into this VN. Hmm.

I do get the feeling it's a lot about how magic is just delusions but that you should let it be if it does no harm. Anything remotely close to that?

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
If you're looking for an in-depth analysis then I would definitely recommend checking out the Stupid Goats readthrough. It's kind of really really long (and ongoing), but the heart of Umineko was never meant to be something you could summarise in a few paragraphs.

This interview is also very much worth reading if you haven't seen it already.
Just reading a random note (ep 4 part 7) of his made me really like the idea of writing notes constantly while reading the VN. Man, had I only come across an analysis like that earlier, perhaps I would've taken it more slowly, really thinking about everything. I was soooo far away from understanding the answer to the "who am I". I assumed it was to be revealed later and was impossible to reason out (and I guess I still kind of think it ought to be incredibly hard to solve at that moment).

I've already read that interview actually. His constant exhortation for the readers to think more deeply is partially what made me want to take the VN more seriously. I barely tried enough on the Bern's trial, I was "not trusting the writer" and instead gave up way too early because I was split between whether multiple culprits were allowed (assuming they weren't and coming to the craziest of conclusions (no one could be culprit )).

I reckon I could have had so much more fun with this game. Ep 5-8 was aimed to those who had reached the truth, for them to double-check their notes, for me it was just exciting battles of truths.

Lastly, is the "golden truth" also part of knowing the "truth"? They introduce it in ep 5 and have it come back randomly, it seemed really cool but I never got to understand it's use.
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Old 2014-01-22, 15:09   Link #33859
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Sorry if I'm just barging in, but can someone enlighten me on what the "truth" of umineko is supposed to be? Just read the VN, but I'm honestly not a thorough reader (not much time) and more than figuring out answers myself I enjoy sewing the web of truth together in my brain with the help of answers.

Less of a question: It's really annoying how the narrator is constantly going haywire. Simple questions like "Did Jessica ever meet Shannon/Kanon" that would normally have an obvious answer aren't granted one due to the fickle narration. It's quite cruel of ryukishi.
Well, the idea behind Umineko is that the reader must think at it and find his own answer. So yes, if you started Umineko just to have some fun and didn't want to devote a lot of time over it, it can be very annoying and unsatisfing.

If instead you like wondering over facts over and over and try to find out the truth on your own, Umineko can be awesome.

But it really depend on what you're into.

Said this I understand the frustration of not being able to believe blindly to the narrator as I've felt it too but in the long run a side of me had come to enjoy playing with the catbox and trying to find my own truth... although I won't deny I'm happy the manga is slowly handing out answers.
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Old 2014-01-22, 16:53   Link #33860
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Quote:
I see. Though, supposedly, many have read it and reached the "truth". Shouldn't there be a way to explain it somehow simply. It's just so difficult finding time nowadays to really get into this VN. Hmm.
Make time; it's worth it, and you can't appreciate anyone's glimpses of the 'Truth' without it. There's no PROPER way to summarize the truth because it's so contextual to the entire work.

Quote:

Lastly, is the "golden truth" also part of knowing the "truth"? They introduce it in ep 5 and have it come back randomly, it seemed really cool but I never got to understand it's use.
The Gold Truth is essentially like an Administrator's Cheat Codes; it is only usable by one who has reached the Truth. It is sometimes stronger than the Red, sometimes weaker. It seems to be, essentially, the ability to make inferences and fill in blanks with valid personal truths of the heart.

For instance, adding your own interpretation to a work. I could say Battler is gay and his childish behavior is just a beard to avoid controversy since it's the 1980's; btw Beatrice is actually a man and no one could prove me right or wrong. It's an entirely valid interpretation of the work that I can construct because I've read the whole thing and there's nothing to vindicate or condemn it.
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