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Old 2014-01-20, 21:15   Link #2641
FlareKnight
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I sure hope this leads to being able to do something about this control Sinbad has over Kougyoku. Just creepy as hell watching Sinbad use her like a puppet. Not a surprise to see that guy do something like that though. He'll do whatever he has to long as he can rationalize it being for his kingdom.
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Old 2014-01-20, 21:29   Link #2642
Fwarlord
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Actually, I don't think Sinbad did anything wrong here. He is a king, he holds responsibility to his people so it's his duty to do anything that can benefit his people and country. Surely, his methods look a bit extreme, but it's not like it will do anything bad for humanity and the world at a whole. We didn't see Sinbad kill any innocent person, in Kougyoku's case, it's just a little sacrifice to create a better future.
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Old 2014-01-20, 22:08   Link #2643
Randrak42
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The ends do not justify the means...that is all.
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Old 2014-01-20, 22:34   Link #2644
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
The ends do not justify the means...that is all.
That's not a rule of thumb. It depends on the situation. Sometime the ends do justify the means.

Now of course this is a shounen manga and it works with a very simplistic moral world-view (that's why Alibaba, who is pure as snow, is the primary human point of view in the story). That's okay, but we should keep in mind that real life isn't that simple.
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Old 2014-01-20, 22:45   Link #2645
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That's not a rule of thumb. It depends on the situation. Sometime the ends do justify the means ...
... you forgot to say "when good is accomplished"; maybe because "good" is subjective term that varies widely even when discussed in the same time period by people of the same culture.
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Old 2014-01-20, 22:49   Link #2646
Hiss13
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
The ends do not justify the means...that is all.
Lelouch from Code Geass would beg to differ.


Although...Sinbad...you magnificent bastard. Can't wait to see what you do next. On the other hand, it's now obvious that Alibaba CANNOT and SHOULD NOT accept Kouen's proposal. Independence or allying with either Magnostadt or Reim is looking like quite the viable option now.

At this point, the Sinbad no Bouken manga is probably going to become pretty essential for us to understand Sinbad's actions.

That being said...please, Ohtaka-sensei...please don't do this to Kuogyoku...
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Old 2014-01-20, 23:46   Link #2647
hawkeyesvn
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You guys are really harsh on Sindbad, you know ? He has a whole alliance on his hand, life of millions of people that Al-Thamen is more than happy to kill. His enemy also include an empire full of arrogant jerks that want to conquer the whole world. He want to rid the World's Abnormalities yet he doesn't have enough power for that. So what's wrong with using a bit of cheap tricks ? Magi manga has always surprise me by how much it defied/subvert many shounen tropes so I really like when our big good - Sindbad has both charisma and scheme. Magi world is filled with political relationship, geography differences and clashes of ideals not just simple "black vs white". Love and friendship won't be enough to bring peace to a complex world like this. What Sind has done may be low or despicable but it's not wrong from his POV.

I hope you don't forget that Sind never try something like forcing other country to be Sindria's vassal or destroying their culture. His goal is clear and not about "conquering the world". It's "getting rid of the world's abnormalities - AKA destroying Al-Thamen".


On the subject of Fanalis, I think we now understand why their strength and stamina are so off the chart. They're actually magical beast in human mode lock. I guess even though they're full of magoi, they can't use it while in human form for balance reason ? Mu was already capable of destroying a whole country with his little magoi pool, a true form Fanalis with Djinn equipment would be too much even for a skilled King candidate. And their true form really looks like some of the Djinn ( Astaroth came to mind ), it make you wonder if they also came from Alma Toran.
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Old 2014-01-20, 23:51   Link #2648
FlareKnight
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I think from Sinbad's personal perspective his actions make sense and are acceptable since they benefit his kingdom. I'm just not part of that kingdom and don't like his actions. What's acceptable and not is tricky to pin down and depends where you draw the line. In the end have to take a stand somewhere or anyone could do anything. The problem is Sinbad is willing to do just about anything for his Kingdom even if he thinks he's becoming a villain in the process.

Still leaves me hoping he gets taken down by the end of the series. Though would much prefer this control over Kougyoku being broken long before that point.
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Old 2014-01-21, 00:36   Link #2649
CBredbeard
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At this point, I think Sinbad is well beyond seeing the error of his ways because he's looks like he's already gone into well-intentioned extremist territory, he probably doesn't think anything he's doing is wrong.

Also, Sinbad being a lot less good than we thought he was has been hinted at so many times that I feel like it would be a complete cop out if he were to suddenly abandon a plan because someone convinced him it was morally wrong.
Remember what Sinbad said to Jaffar after putting the spell on Kougyokou? Sinbad's not happy about what he did, but he might not exactly understand how bad it is and it may be that all he's done is use Kougyokou to spy...so far.

Obviously he's confident about revealing himself this way to Alibaba, which means he doesn't think that it's something that would bother Alibaba or that it's something that Alibaba would forgive him for. And I don't think Sinbad is that stupid. He'd try to soften the blow a bit if he thought it was that bad. Popping up suddenly and telling Alibaba to get married, that's hardly the kind of thing he'd do if he knew just how freaky what he's doing is.

Sinbad probably hasn't used that spell on a human being. He doesn't know how terrible it is. He might think that Kougyokou is just sitting there half-asleep while his words are being conveyed from thin air. He doesn't know she's pretty much a puppet, performing all of his actions right down to his facial expressions.

Even if he were an end's justify the means type with good intentions, he's at least smart enough to consider the consequences of alienating his friends and allies through his actions and would behave accordingly. He'd hide the truth from them or portray it in such a way that they wouldn't be as shocked.

Which is again why I think he has no idea just how much he's screwed up Kougyokou and how badly he's freakin' Alibaba out right now. Sinbad has always expressed misgivings when he had to do something questionable. Right here he's acting way too casual and familiar with Alibaba for him without any doubt.
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Old 2014-01-21, 00:50   Link #2650
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by hawkeyesvn View Post
You guys are really harsh on Sindbad, you know ? He has a whole alliance on his hand, life of millions of people that Al-Thamen is more than happy to kill.
You forget one teenzy weenzy detail. We (the readers) are nearly omniscient and know for a fact that Al-Thamen has its roots to the highest levels of the Kou empire, ATM only Judar and Hakuryuu Ren know this for a fact. Sinbad is suspicious but knows no hard facts, For all he knows Al Thamen could work only in the shadows and may have already infiltrated even Sindria without him realizing (just the same he infiltrated the Kou empire by posessing poor Kougyoku).

So justifying all his actions due to the al-thamen threat is wishful thinking, not so different from the "weapons of mass destruction" argument we have heard on the real world.
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Old 2014-01-21, 01:21   Link #2651
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I think from Sinbad's personal perspective his actions make sense and are acceptable since they benefit his kingdom. I'm just not part of that kingdom and don't like his actions. What's acceptable and not is tricky to pin down and depends where you draw the line. In the end have to take a stand somewhere or anyone could do anything. The problem is Sinbad is willing to do just about anything for his Kingdom even if he thinks he's becoming a villain in the process.
Yeah, but why just Sinbad? Why do Reim and Kou get a free pass for their imperialism and their practice of slavery?

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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Sinbad probably hasn't used that spell on a human being. He doesn't know how terrible it is. He might think that Kougyokou is just sitting there half-asleep while his words are being conveyed from thin air. He doesn't know she's pretty much a puppet, performing all of his actions right down to his facial expressions.
So it creeps you out. And? What's so bad about that? In a few minutes she'll wake up and be right as rain. She won't even realize what happened.

It's a more subtle form of what Kouen did when he threatened Alibaba to flip him. Every ruler in that world will do anything out of well-justified fear of the other guys, so I don't see why Sinbad's getting this rep as the Big Bad.

Heck, even now, I still see Kou, the not-so-unwitting pawns of Al Tharmen, as the biggest threat by far. The 7 Seas have a lot of metal vessels, but that's all. They're not even that united. They just all agree they don't want to get conquered.
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Old 2014-01-21, 01:57   Link #2652
kyou13
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IMHO this controlling thing doesn't make Sin the bad guy or anything. However, it does put him on equal standing with Kouen, that is neither of them is more evil or justice than the other.
(And wait a min there, don't make it look like this "7 seas " guy only cares about protecting his country. I dare to bet that he wants to be king of the world no lesser than Kouen.)

This maybe one more push for Alibaba to go for independence. The question is just how he will do that while standing on Kouen's land and (very likely) being watched by Sin's spies.

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Originally Posted by Hiss13 View Post
Although...Sinbad...you magnificent bastard. Can't wait to see what you do next. On the other hand, it's now obvious that Alibaba CANNOT and SHOULD NOT accept Kouen's proposal. Independence or allying with either Magnostadt or Reim is looking like quite the viable option now.
And here I thought that Yamuraiha is monitoring Magno!? Doesn't that mean Magno is somehow under Sin's controll!?

Last edited by kyou13; 2014-01-21 at 02:12.
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Old 2014-01-21, 02:07   Link #2653
CBredbeard
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So it creeps you out. And? What's so bad about that? In a few minutes she'll wake up and be right as rain. She won't even realize what happened.
1.) We don't know if there are any side effects.

2.) Sinbad's violating her in mind and body. The same Kougyokou who expressed nothing but love and friendship for Alibaba and Sinbad is being used as a pawn against her own country without any consent on her part whatsoever.

3.) It's made all the worse due to the fact that up til then Alibaba had nothing but confidence and trust in Sinbad. Kougyokou is probably the last person that should be used in such a way, yet here we are.

Quote:
It's a more subtle form of what Kouen did when he threatened Alibaba to flip him. Every ruler in that world will do anything out of well-justified fear of the other guys, so I don't see why Sinbad's getting this rep as the Big Bad.
Not even. Kouen may have threatened Alibaba, but at the same time he tried to bargain with him. Kouen also offered legitimate criticism of Alibaba and engaged him on a personal and intellectual level. In short, Kouen was respectful of Alibaba even if he was aggressive towards him.

Kougyokou is nothing but a doll on a string with no say in the matter whatsoever.

Quote:
Heck, even now, I still see Kou, the not-so-unwitting pawns of Al Tharmen, as the biggest threat by far. The 7 Seas have a lot of metal vessels, but that's all. They're not even that united. They just all agree they don't want to get conquered.
It would be a more dramatic turn for Sinbad to become a villain which is why people expect it. Add the fact that until the last 50 chapters or so, Sinbad was the most powerful character in the manga and people are going to think he's final boss, because obviously Alibaba as the protagonist isn't going to be upstaged by a supporting character when the big show-down commences.

I think that's people's first mistake though. This isn't Fairy Tail where all of the series heavy hitters are taking out of action so that Natsu can swoop in and claim victory over the latest arc's final boss. Magi is not a battle manga where the protagonist has to end up being the strongest and most righteous in the world. Rather Alibaba and Aladdin effect the personal decisions and outlooks of the people they meet...and incredibly enough they don't have to beat them half to death to do it! Imagine that.

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Originally Posted by kyou13 View Post
This maybe one more push for Alibaba to go for independence. The question is just how he will do that while standing on Kouen's land and (very likely) being watched by Sin's spies.
Alibaba can run away from it if wants to. He can throw away his metal vessel and just live peacefully. He might even do that, since the question of why he even has that power keeps being raised.
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Old 2014-01-21, 02:15   Link #2654
Hiss13
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's a more subtle form of what Kouen did when he threatened Alibaba to flip him. Every ruler in that world will do anything out of well-justified fear of the other guys, so I don't see why Sinbad's getting this rep as the Big Bad.
Possibly because Sinbad is much more subtle about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyou13 View Post
IMHO this controlling thing doesn't make Sin the bad guy or anything. However, it does put him on equal standing with Kouen, that is neither of them is more evil or justice than the other.
(And wait a min there, don't make it look like this "7 seas " guy only cares about protecting his country. I dare to bet that he wants to be king of the world no lesser than Kouen.)
Sinbad is like all politicians. His actions and motives are all gray. This was something that should have been obvious from the beginning. Sinbad has only given the appearance of someone who is fully just but in reality, he IS a politician.
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Old 2014-01-21, 05:54   Link #2655
kyou13
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Alibaba can run away from it if wants to. He can throw away his metal vessel and just live peacefully. He might even do that, since the question of why he even has that power keeps being raised.
For Kouen to threaten Ali in such a way and don't even have means to capture him when needed..., then isn't our Kouen a little bit too naive!?

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Originally Posted by Hiss13 View Post
Sinbad is like all politicians. His actions and motives are all gray. This was something that should have been obvious from the beginning. Sinbad has only given the appearance of someone who is fully just but in reality, he IS a politician.
Aren't my and your points literally the same!?
Just saying that with this chapter, the image of a justice Sin is crushed (well, in case anyone still has it up till now)
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Old 2014-01-21, 07:31   Link #2656
Fwarlord
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Just saying that with this chapter, the image of a justice Sin is crushed (well, in case anyone still has it up till now)
For the sake of greater good, justice must become quite cruel sometimes. To defeat the great evil and create a brighter future, sometimes extreme methods must be used and collateral damage must be made. As long as Sinbad do what he do out of his benevolent love for his people and humanity as a whole, I don't see why his people and friends will lose their truth for him, let alone us, who know his kind-heartedness from the Sinbad manga.
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Old 2014-01-21, 09:42   Link #2657
Xacual
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3.) It's made all the worse due to the fact that up til then Alibaba had nothing but confidence and trust in Sinbad. Kougyokou is probably the last person that should be used in such a way, yet here we are.
This is the only thing that kind of bothers me. Even Aladdin commented to Alibaba warning him about getting caught up too much in Sinbad's plans. I feel like that warning from Aladdin was brushed over a bit.
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Old 2014-01-21, 11:50   Link #2658
CBredbeard
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This is the only thing that kind of bothers me. Even Aladdin commented to Alibaba warning him about getting caught up too much in Sinbad's plans. I feel like that warning from Aladdin was brushed over a bit.
Not at all. The only real favor that Alibaba has performed for Sinbad is the Zagan dungeon dive, something that Aladdin was completely on board with. And Alibaba doesn't want to have to depend on Sindria to deal with his problems or to help people. He kept expressing how he couldn't do anything for the pirate kids or anything for his country.

He does believe in Sinbad, there's some real hero worship there from Alibaba's early childhood, but Sinbad has never actually asked Alibaba to do something that he wouldn't have done on his own.
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Old 2014-01-21, 12:26   Link #2659
ChampDream
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You forget one teenzy weenzy detail. We (the readers) are nearly omniscient and know for a fact that Al-Thamen has its roots to the highest levels of the Kou empire, ATM only Judar and Hakuryuu Ren know this for a fact. Sinbad is suspicious but knows no hard facts, For all he knows Al Thamen could work only in the shadows and may have already infiltrated even Sindria without him realizing (just the same he infiltrated the Kou empire by posessing poor Kougyoku).

.
you forgot that Kouen does know about Al Thamen too.
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Old 2014-01-21, 12:51   Link #2660
shalala
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Kougyokou eyes where creeepy. Plus now that we know of the fanalis origins I would hope that we would get too see one of the fanalis change into their true form. But then what does this mean to Masrur. Could he have lied to Mor fall knowing what their homeland was or him and Sinbad went the wrong way and visited the wrong area.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned but Sinbad manga is getting an ova. Soo maybe down the line an anime could appear. As long as they don't change it like they did with the 1st Magi season.
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