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Old 2014-01-21, 10:57   Link #2041
Death Usagi
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Things are seriously getting interesting...
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Old 2014-01-21, 15:30   Link #2042
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If the writer didn't rush the manga at the beginning, and planned things out carefully using the first 40-50 chapters, working on character development...and had both Annie and Eren interact more, and learn from one another, AND CONNECT! Then they may have gotten closer, and had both Annie and Eren open up to each others company, there could have been something of a relationship that might have gotten interesting later. Annie didn't just become Eren's teacher, but also became the one person he and she could be opened with, and not hold back! And sparing was their means of communication. Listen...Eren made the impossible and made Annie smile...do you know what that means to a girl? I've never had a girlfriend, but I know this! "Being Polite is so rare these days that it's often confused with flirting"! Annie finally felt appreciated knowing that someone accepted her as a human being...Annie finally started to feel like a girl. and Eren flattered her and showed a sense of respect. Yes Eren was fascinated by Annie's techniques, and Annie even offered to teach him some more, to which he gladly accepted! But relationship are built where there's sparks...and there definitely were some sparks....you could definitely feel the sexual tension between their sparring. And Eren also showed a sense of flattery by utilizing one of Annie's techniques when he floored Jean...did you see the look Annie had in her face? Annie probably thought, he was paying attention to me, and quickly Annie paid attention to Eren, and continued to teach him some more. Annie was practically telling Eren to realise that she was a frail, and weak...and Annie used her body as a representation in their sparing. The keywords being "Frail" and "Weak" meant that though Annie was a girl she had feelings too! But despite Eren being dense headed, he still didn't know how to talk to girls, though they were sparing Annie was teaching Eren how to fight! Annie wasn't just teaching Eren how to fight...but to also how to read a girls emotions, and also how to talk to girls.

Reiner acted as more like a big brother to Eren, always joking around acting like family to Eren, pushing him to do better...of course both Reiner and Eren became close in their 3 years of training. And yes I guess Eren did respect both Reiner and Annie! Afterall it's a Titan shifter thing...a weird Titan connection. Even I'm learning about this concept....

I don't trust the Survey Corps, The Military Police Brigade or the Garrison, and their malevolent manipulative ways. Erwin probably stepped down just so he can work on the inside and manipulate the Corps behind the scenes, and there's definitely something up with him, and Rivalie's team!!!!! I don't trust them at all. Their use of experimentation on Titans to show how they work, was probably a reason for them to learn how to control and use them as tools...who know what would have happened if the two titans that were captured, and whose bodies have been experimented on, would have revealed everything about how they worked...which is why Annie killed them so their secrets would go down to the graves. Imagine what the Science department would have done if they found out their secrets? They would have used it to turn people into Titans and use them as tools in battles. Eren was being experimented on and is still is by the Survey Corps, just doing it with a false sense choice.

And what's with those Titans in those walls? Why are they there? And who are they?

Remember Annie never had a choice or a decision of what went on in her life, and was forced to go on a mission and capture Eren. The Survey Corps were in the way, she was just pushing them away to clear a path to get to Eren" But her size made it difficult, and her Titan form was there to put fear into them, so they would run away. But when attacked! Annie retaliated, and they would have killed her if she didn't. She was defending herself...and I bet you Annie never meant to kill them at all.... it's just her size made it difficult to maneuver in that enclosed space. Imagine running in her Titan form? Also why would Annie cry tears for no apparent reason? It took Levi by surprise to see that coming from the female Titan at the time...because crying is a form of guilty conscience and also a human characteristic.

Yes Eren felt betrayed, but the first thing Eren should have done was go straight to her personally, and spoke to her himself! To hear the story from her point of view...before setting her up for an Ambush! And this was Eren's first mistake. Maybe Annie would have explained it to him of her situation and Eren would then make up his own mind...but he went along with the Ambush, and I can see that though he was preparing her for the fall...he was still fighting to prove her innocence...and if he did care then Eren would have fought back to protest her innocence. If anything Eren, Mikasa and Armin set her up, and Annie felt betrayed and her feelings were hurt...if anything Annie was betrayed by the very people she put her trust on. Eren was filled with a horror of despair and disbelief, and guilt too, not having proving Annies innocence in proving everyone wrong about her. Eren said " There's still a chance you're an idiot, whose only going through with this because, you have a shitty sense of humor", "You can prove yourself just by going underground", "So come down here and prove it" still pleading to prove her innocent, but Annie knew she was sold out...So turning into her Titan form was a way for her to say "Fine you take me down, then I'm taking you all with me". And Eren may have been betrayed after witnessing Annie's Titan form, and realised coming to grips with the reality of the story, he still harboured no Ill will, and after he finally turned and fought her, Eren still wanted to know why Annie would do this. As I said in my previous post...even if Annie explained! Eren still wouldn't comprehend her reasons. Annie wanted to escape because they were going to kill her, and even after she was caught, having herself be encased in her crystal meant that, they wouldn't get through to her. After all at the end of the day...Annie was the one betrayed....and what hurt her most, was it was Eren that betrayed her even more. It's Erens turn to win her trust now, because I wouldn't trust him after offering him my techniques, train him, nurture him, educate him, respect him. I guess her father Leonhardt snr was right..."Even if the world turned on her and hated her, Annie would always know that her dad would always be by her side".

Actually Eren caused more deaths the time he fought Annie in her Titan form in Trost...I mean did you see the look in Annie's face when she crashed through the church! Annie was in shock to have realised that she was in the centre of yet more killed innocent lives.

Interesting how even after Annie was caught, and crystallised! She's still helping Eren.

Annie may have been a monster, but she proved every human to be more of a monster than she was.....her only regret was that she trusted too much, and that her kindness was used against her...Annie's more human than any of her friends were.

In my opinion Annie's the real hero.

As for Mikasa.....well........hmmmmmmmmmm I still like her but damn it she's so damn aggravating, frustrating that she's annoying. I don't hate her...just wish she wasn't so clingy, and controlling.
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:57   Link #2043
GreyZone
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All this justification for Annie seems quite wrong. You forgot other characters when writing this and create an imaginative universe where just Eren, Annie really exist and the rest of the world is just full of selfish and evil people. e.g. you completely forgot to mention Armin in any way. He did find out about Annie being the FT after all. If Eren warned Annie he would instead betray all his own comrades. Why are you putting all the responsibility on Eren? You say "Annie had a bad childhood and could not be held responsible for her actions". Surprise: Eren also had a bad childhood. He saw a titan devour his mother and this only happeneed because RBA invaded Shinganshina (and his father just disappeard as well). Also Annie violently tried to abduce Eren against his will, in order to "help" the ones, who whiped out 1/3rd of his known world and caused the death of his mother. And you expect him to side with her? That sounds ridiculous.

This seems more like you try to push Eren x Annie and try to find excuses for Annie so that they can live their (non-existing) love relationship to the fullest.

And regarding the humans being evil: It does not justificate being evil too. Eren avoided to be dissected by the MP, so there seem to be people that really focus on survival and not just on their selfish goals. So if RBA actually succeeded, those would simply become "collateral damage" while Eren would be possibly imprisoned in the "Warriors' village"? Does not seem like a great idea to me.
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Old 2014-01-21, 21:32   Link #2044
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Don't try to make your point stronger by splitting half of the chapter into single page links (they will be removed soon anyway, you really should follow the forum rules)

Aside from that, what you say is certainly not wrong, however I don't see what your point is. That part of the story was obviously to show what foolishness humans can reach because of fear and/or ignorance. Yes, Eren lives and tries to protects a world where the government sends the Central Branch of the MP to eliminate "unwanted" people, or people that have a high risk of telling things that they are not supposed to tell. And it is also a world that would have discarded the great weapon that Eren was simply because of fear and ignorance. Annie realizes this. And? Where she comes from, people send "warrior children" to commit genocide on another civilisation and that is better? Or what is it?

As I said I still don't understand what you wanted to convey with that last post aside from Annie being supposedly conscious about the world. But even then Annie is still continueing the "mission" she was sent for and what's even worse she goes on a killing spree against the few people who she knows may cause some kind of change in that rotten world. Instead of doing damage to the military police, or attacking the government of the walls, she instead attacks the few people she knows, who were able to get past the illusion of safety. Really, THAT seems much more like a contradiction to me.
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Old 2014-01-22, 14:17   Link #2045
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Question

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Don't try to make your point stronger by splitting half of the chapter into single page links (they will be removed soon anyway, you really should follow the forum rules)

Aside from that, what you say is certainly not wrong, however I don't see what your point is. That part of the story was obviously to show what foolishness humans can reach because of fear and/or ignorance. Yes, Eren lives and tries to protects a world where the government sends the Central Branch of the MP to eliminate "unwanted" people, or people that have a high risk of telling things that they are not supposed to tell. And it is also a world that would have discarded the great weapon that Eren was simply because of fear and ignorance. Annie realizes this. And? Where she comes from, people send "warrior children" to commit genocide on another civilisation and that is better? Or what is it?

As I said I still don't understand what you wanted to convey with that last post aside from Annie being supposedly conscious about the world. But even then Annie is still continueing the "mission" she was sent for and what's even worse she goes on a killing spree against the few people who she knows may cause some kind of change in that rotten world. Instead of doing damage to the military police, or attacking the government of the walls, she instead attacks the few people she knows, who were able to get past the illusion of safety. Really, THAT seems much more like a contradiction to me.
I haven't figured out how to attach photo's so they can be viewed as spoiler, so I don't know how to do that yet...I'm new to this forum, so I haven't really looked at the rules and regulation of how this forum runs! But I'll make sure that I take a look at them later, and I'll learn how to attach photo's so there wouldn't be any links.

As I said before "The mind is blind if the eyes cannot see"

If you think Annie had malevolent intentions in killing innocent people...then you have no idea what the concept of evil is, or paying attention to who the really mastermind is behind this.

I suggest you go back to reading the whole chapter again, and this time pay attention. This time look closer at the words that have been used...words have meaning behind them, and you're not paying close attention to the content of the context.

You believe Annie did Evil counts such as murder? Well what about the 3 corps? Do you think they're all innocent? Hell no.....Mikasa has a more murderous look then Annie, and Armin is a manipulative little prick.

As I said before ôSometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.ö

I'm going to give you a very interesting quote that Uchiha Itachi said...

Pay attention to his words

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts ... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"
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Old 2014-01-22, 15:11   Link #2046
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You are judging people based on appearance. Maybe you should look at their actions more? And once again: What. Is. Your. Point?
If you want to say that a lot of wall-humans are worse or "more evil" than Annie, then I do agree, however Annie is still not a pure person.
And Mikasa just does what she does because Eren is her "lifeline". Armin does things with survival in mind, i.e. "they or us". And he also wants to be freed from the walls to explore the outside world.
What about Annies motives? No idea, but appearantly she can kill anyone without hesitation, who she has no personal attachment to.

I ask once more: "What is your point"? Get to the point already!
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Old 2014-01-22, 19:05   Link #2047
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No one sold Annie out, until she almost kidnapped Eren. She could have simply stopped working for the Warrior Tribe and simply go along with the others, but instead she decided to be a monster that stole even more of people who Eren got attached to (Levi's team). Your justifications are really biased... and I think I finally get your "point". So basically you want to convince everyone that Annie was just acting out of "self defense" after she was betrayed. But as I already pointed out that logic is wrong. She already did so much damage to her old comrades that even Armin who really seemed to like her felt betrayed by her actions.

i.e. Annie betrayed her comrades, not the other way around. While revenge would may have been involved as well, it was clear that Annie's actions would endanger more lives over time. As she was clearly hostile against the wall-humans, they could choose between "being nice to a broken girl by dying" or "to elminate the threat of a very dangerous enemy".

You should really stop watching anime where the protagonists are some overidealistic(, masochistic and spineless) people who think they can save everyone.

Also... you should really stop posting these links. If a mod sees that you will be banned on the spot.
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Old 2014-01-22, 21:24   Link #2048
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
No one sold Annie out, until she almost kidnapped Eren. She could have simply stopped working for the Warrior Tribe and simply go along with the others, but instead she decided to be a monster that stole even more of people who Eren got attached to (Levi's team). Your justifications are really biased... and I think I finally get your "point". So basically you want to convince everyone that Annie was just acting out of "self defense" after she was betrayed. But as I already pointed out that logic is wrong. She already did so much damage to her old comrades that even Armin who really seemed to like her felt betrayed by her actions.

i.e. Annie betrayed her comrades, not the other way around. While revenge would may have been involved as well, it was clear that Annie's actions would endanger more lives over time. As she was clearly hostile against the wall-humans, they could choose between "being nice to a broken girl by dying" or "to elminate the threat of a very dangerous enemy".

You should really stop watching anime where the protagonists are some overidealistic(, masochistic and spineless) people who think they can save everyone.

Also... you should really stop posting these links. If a mod sees that you will be banned on the spot.
As I said "the eyes are useless if the mind is blind"...you're basing your opinion on logic alone, sometimes you have to cast aside logic, and do what feels right, even if it means standing alone...you know betrayal is a two ways streak.

Human minds really are primitive.
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Old 2014-01-22, 23:11   Link #2049
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Originally Posted by HOLLOW08 View Post
As I said "the eyes are useless if the mind is blind"...you're basing your opinion on logic alone, sometimes you have to cast aside logic, and do what feels right, even if it means standing alone...you know betrayal is a two ways streak.

Human minds really are primitive.
Annie did absolutely nothing to deserve mercy. Eren pointed it out when he fought against Reiner "they were foolish to have trained him". Annie was a spy and any deception done to her, she did to others as well, moreover she even was the first one to fool the others, killing many of their comrades.

Please, just stop it. You are completely biased toward an ErenxAnnie shipping. You sound like you would probably even forgive Rachel for what she did in Tower of God.
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Old 2014-01-24, 19:51   Link #2050
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Excuse me? 0_o

Despite the lack of screen time Annie is far more developed than lots of so called main charas. There is lots of depth put into her.

While she does seem cold she clearly is not emotionless. And she is distant for obvious reasons, would you befriend those you might kill? In all honesty the fact that Reiner and Bertholdt act all buddy buddy while killing people behind their backs seems far more cruel then ignoring them from the start.

Since everyone puts so much trust in Armin's words, he is the one who called her a good person and said that she doesn't want them to go to front lines. Why? Because she would have to kill them. She didn't want it.

However, she cares. She allowed Eren to get close and taught him how to fight. One of the reasons why he is still alive to be honest.
She didn't kill Armin because she cares. If she didn't he would be dead and she would not be captured.

She is told by her father to treat whole world as enemy and that's what she does, she tries to distance herself from everyone but fails and starts to care. She calls herself a failure of a warrior mostly probably because of that.

Despite being strong, she calls herself weak. Why?

She calls herself a bad person, she admits that she is bad yet when Armin calls her good, she wants to cling onto it.

She was sent on a secret mission as a spy and hides some big secret. She is the most developed Titan to boot!

What is this crystal thing? Where did she learn to do that?

Going by last chapter, the 3 shifters are close friends yet they kept a fašade of not caring.

I'm sorry but Annie has far more things going for her than you think.

Who is Petra? A good natured girl with a crush on Levi who survived several years and killed quiet a bit of titans. That's it. We never even properly saw her in action nor is there anything new to learn about her.

If you only see Annie as uncaring, cold person you clearly did not pay attention nor do you want to.
My friend I appreciate everything you wrote, and to tell you the truth...I agree with you on all accounts! But some people here follow a heard mentality...when pressed with new information that can effect their views, they turn into savages and assume the worst.

Frans Fanon said...

ôSometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are
presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new
evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is
extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it
is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize,
ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.ö

This is what most of these people in this Forum have, and they're really biased in their truth, they only believe that since Annie killed him and killed her, and then killed them that it automatically can be assumed that it's the truth....

However..."The eyes are useless if the mind is blind"

Everyone makes mistakes so don't come out pointing out Annie's mistakes before these people point fingers at Annie, they should first look at the actions of others, and looked at themselves in the mirror...

She's not perfect, because she's flawed in her actions.

The problem with Annie is that she cares too much...and that's her greatest attribute, and it's what makes her seem so human.

The whole purpose of this manga was to show the flaws of the human race, and Annie showed her flaws...and that's what makes her perfect. She's beautiful because of her frailty, her own flaws, her own choices...and we're all flawed, but a lot of the time Annie teaches other to do better.

To tell you the truth none of what she did was her fault, and Annie doesn't deserve to have people torture her, and look at her as some sort of a monster...some of her actions may have come out as selfish, but most of her actions were all selfless. Annie deserves Peace damn it after all the hardship she had to endure in her life..I know she's not real but she's real to me and it means a lot to me that Annie finds peace, and I believe the only person who can offer her that peace is Eren...she so deserves someone who can show her some appreciation, compassion, serenity, Love above all else. You have no idea what it's like to be alone...and she's lonely! Oh great now my heart is stuck in my throat.

I really, really love this show, and it's all because of Annie...my god she's the reason why I took the time to watch the damn show, and the only one I looked forward to seeing. Yes my god I do ship the relationship of Annie and Eren being made a couple, because I know they work so well.

People only see saviours as being human, but not all humans are monsters...let me share a quote from Joker in Dark Knight he said...

"We stopped checking monsters in our bed when we realized its inside of us"

Annie knows what she is, but hates being what she is...she loathes being around Reiner and Bertholt, because being around them reminds her of what she is. And she is worth so much more...she even decided to keep quiet when Armin asked her for help to smuggle Eren out of the city...only to be manipulate by Armin into an organized ambush, to trap her underground. Mikasa is an overstatement in the department of hating Annie's guts...she hates her because she got beaten by Annie in their bout! But Mikasa is an arrogant and she's a selfish moron! She's the true cold hearted one, remember what she said to Krista...just as Mikasa was about to slice Ymir? She literally and practically said that she didn't even have a heart...and was willing to slice through Krista to get to Ymir.

Remember her saying how she grew tired of bored of talk...and was willing to rush to kill Annie, just to get it over and done with, without listening to her side of the story. Not to mention her "Fall" comment seemed like she was enjoying seeing people fall...at their expense.

Mikasa...Now that's the true face of a killer.

Mikasa makes Azula from Avatar the last Aribender look like a saint.

I love that Eren was the only one fighting to prove her innocence, albeit not comprehending the meaning behind her words...stating that she's only going through with this charade simply because she had an idiotic sense of humor...but ultimately despite betraying Annie a little...I believe he still cared for her..after all he was the one who fought her so he can find out why?

Eren was the only one that changed Annie, and Annie educated and trained Eren making him stronger...so they compliment each other! I'm a guy and sometimes I turn into a girl when I read the pages when they interact with each other...they're so adorable, yet they're still kids...which gives them time to grow.

But what about the 3 Branch Corps? Are they all innocent? Hell no...They're a bunch of hypocrites and manipulators...not to mention bullies. Levi's actions by making Eren voiceless is an example of that, not to mention how Levi's squad treated Eren when he accidentally, and unwillingly transformed in front. I find those people to be despicable and arrogant.

Uchiha Itachi said

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts ... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"

I just can't hate her...I've tried to but it only made me love her even more.

I love tat you posted this message, and I love you even more because you empathize with Annie...so you have my respect.
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Old 2014-01-25, 05:08   Link #2051
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I'm sorry HOLLOW08, but I can't take anything you write seriously. You're babbling nonsense, repeating over and over the same 3 quotes as if they're some kind of ultimate truth, you turn Annie into an angel with every sentence, while demonizing everyone around her. You clearly can't think objectively and you're extremely biased with ErenxAnnie shipping.
Annie IS a complex character, yes. She ISN'T rotten to the core and 100% evil, yes. But she's not all angel, butterflies and icecream either. She MASSACRED people she didn't have to and seemed to enjoy it. You said she didn't kill Armin, because she cares and it instantly makes her a good-hearted, innocent girl that everyone picks on... but you forget that right after that she smashed countless of other soldiers, swinged one on the ropes like a yoyo, then kicked a man on a horse like a football. That is not only killing, that's PLAYING. She played around and clearly enjoyed it. So don't tell me she's all nice and dandy, she has some problems too.
Take off your Annie-colored glasses and look at her objectively. She's no different from Reiner and Bertholt. They all have reasons for their actions I bet, but that doesn't excuse their actions - they do have a lot of empation while in human form, yes, but as soon as they turn into Titans, they're a lot like Eren - frenzied, focused on their bloodlust, desire do destroy and accomplish their mission at all costs, no matter how many people around them die in the process. Only when they're back to their human selves their conscience kicks in.
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Old 2014-01-26, 05:01   Link #2052
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Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
Spoiler for Chapter 42:
Wait what? The story is good but the characters are bad? O_O
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Old 2014-01-27, 10:20   Link #2053
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Exclamation

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Originally Posted by gbanshee View Post
I'm sorry HOLLOW08, but I can't take anything you write seriously. You're babbling nonsense, repeating over and over the same 3 quotes as if they're some kind of ultimate truth, you turn Annie into an angel with every sentence, while demonizing everyone around her. You clearly can't think objectively and you're extremely biased with ErenxAnnie shipping.
Annie IS a complex character, yes. She ISN'T rotten to the core and 100% evil, yes. But she's not all angel, butterflies and icecream either. She MASSACRED people she didn't have to and seemed to enjoy it. You said she didn't kill Armin, because she cares and it instantly makes her a good-hearted, innocent girl that everyone picks on... but you forget that right after that she smashed countless of other soldiers, swinged one on the ropes like a yoyo, then kicked a man on a horse like a football. That is not only killing, that's PLAYING. She played around and clearly enjoyed it. So don't tell me she's all nice and dandy, she has some problems too.
Take off your Annie-colored glasses and look at her objectively. She's no different from Reiner and Bertholt. They all have reasons for their actions I bet, but that doesn't excuse their actions - they do have a lot of empation while in human form, yes, but as soon as they turn into Titans, they're a lot like Eren - frenzied, focused on their bloodlust, desire do destroy and accomplish their mission at all costs, no matter how many people around them die in the process. Only when they're back to their human selves their conscience kicks in.
Most of the posts in his forum are biased opinions and I don't care how you view me, because I don't need your approval. Annie will always be and an innocent girl in my eyes. Wanna know why I see her as an angel....because GOD knows she has a heart. Wanna know why her Titan ability to crystallize like a diamond? It's because Annie is pure of heart. And I love her character, it's just not fair the life she had...

Annie's life and Eren's life are so similar! Both fathers deserted them, both had a bad childhood. And it's because of this that they're both tragic heroes.

Looking at a person objectively is another way of saying to look at them logically and judge their actions, solely by what they did, missing out valuable information that can be misinterpreted, and Logic alone cannot explain everything! Because it minimizes a persons view to only seeing things in black and white...missing the grey are which is what you cannot see.

Look at EremexMikasa shippers they're practically the same...and you think they're any different? Hell no...so keep believeing that my opinions are biased, because you're only seeing me, but you're forgetting that those kind of people exist as well.

Mikasa is worse in comparison to Annie...she practically manipulated Eren's feelings and decisions, stopping him from walking up to Annie and having him hear the truth about Annie himself. Mikasa even made Eren cut his ties to his human emotions making him turn into his Titan form, and engage Annie in a fight to which more lives were lost! Yet putting the blame on Annie because of it...to be honest....even Mikasa herself said she doesn't have a heart.

Hold on why am I acting like an idiotic fool and having an argument with someone over the internet.

My mom taught me something valuable in life and she said.

"Son in life you'll meet a lot of arrogant and ignorant fools! I want to warn you to never get into an argument with them, because they're full of negative karma! And because they're ignorant...their brains will never be able to calculate their perception and because of it they'll never be able to see anything farther then the sight of their own nose. Please do me this favor, never get involved with them because they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

I don't want to fight you because I know you're just setting me up to look like a fool, and only a fool would fight another fool.
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Old 2014-01-27, 11:55   Link #2054
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Originally Posted by HOLLOW08 View Post
Most of the posts in his forum are biased opinions and I don't care how you view me, because I don't need your approval. Annie will always be and an innocent girl in my eyes. Wanna know why I see her as an angel....because GOD knows she has a heart. Wanna know why her Titan ability to crystallize like a diamond? It's because Annie is pure of heart. And I love her character, it's just not fair the life she had...

Annie's life and Eren's life are so similar! Both fathers deserted them, both had a bad childhood. And it's because of this that they're both tragic heroes.

Looking at a person objectively is another way of saying to look at them logically and judge their actions, solely by what they did, missing out valuable information that can be misinterpreted, and Logic alone cannot explain everything! Because it minimizes a persons view to only seeing things in black and white...missing the grey are which is what you cannot see.

Look at EremexMikasa shippers they're practically the same...and you think they're any different? Hell no...so keep believeing that my opinions are biased, because you're only seeing me, but you're forgetting that those kind of people exist as well.

Mikasa is worse in comparison to Annie...she practically manipulated Eren's feelings and decisions, stopping him from walking up to Annie and having him hear the truth about Annie himself. Mikasa even made Eren cut his ties to his human emotions making him turn into his Titan form, and engage Annie in a fight to which more lives were lost! Yet putting the blame on Annie because of it...to be honest....even Mikasa herself said she doesn't have a heart.

Hold on why am I acting like an idiotic fool and having an argument with someone over the internet.

My mom taught me something valuable in life and she said.

"Son in life you'll meet a lot of arrogant and ignorant fools! I want to warn you to never get into an argument with them, because they're full of negative karma! And because they're ignorant...their brains will never be able to calculate their perception and because of it they'll never be able to see anything farther then the sight of their own nose. Please do me this favor, never get involved with them because they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

I don't want to fight you because I know you're just setting me up to look like a fool, and only a fool would fight another fool.
It's because you contradict yourself all the time that I can't take you seriously. You keep quoting things like
"The eyes are useless if the mind is blind"
or
“Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. (...)
And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize,
ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.”

while YOU are the only one that shuts himself off to all other opinions and views.
It's all about Annie for you.
"Looking at a person objectively is another way of saying to look at them logically and judge their actions, solely by what they did, missing out valuable information that can be misinterpreted, and Logic alone cannot explain everything! Because it minimizes a persons view to only seeing things in black and white...missing the grey are which is what you cannot see."
While other here can aknowledge Annie's benevolent side (while still keeping in mind her cruelty), you can only focus on that. Annie is "white" or "gray", but then everyone else is "black" and pure evil for you, mostly because of your misinterpretation of their words and actions (the part about Mikasa being the reason "Eren cut his ties to his human emotions making him turn into his Titan form, and engage Annie in a fight to which more lives were lost!" especially. It was so far-fetched, deprived of common sense and reason that I couldn't help but just laugh).

Look at EremexMikasa shippers they're practically the same...and you think they're any different? Hell no...so keep believeing that my opinions are biased, because you're only seeing me, but you're forgetting that those kind of people exist as well.
I couldn't care less about shippers, so it's completely irrelevant here. I'm not leaning toward neither ErenxMikasa nor ErenxAnnie, but it's clear that your views are EXTREMELY influenced by the latter, to the point of you twisting events and words of characters to make the water flow your way. That is BAD and not objective AT ALL.

I'm sure everyone will agree with me on that your emotional insecurity simply glares through your view of Annie, to the point of it not even being funny anymore. It would be an interesting conversation if you'd be able to provide SOMETHING meaningful and thought inducing in your arguments, but when it's pure Annie clinging while demonizing every other cahracter, then we have nothing serious to talk about. You clearly don't comprehend the plot enough to care about anyone other than Annie-centric universe. Now I can only challenge you to disagree and provide a counter-argument that will somehow uphold your opinion, but please do it reasonably and WITHOUT another of your irrelevant quotes that only serve as a red herring and a device to discredit the other person's views while upheaving yours and turning you into some kind of martyr. Only THEN I can start taking your opinions seriously.
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Old 2014-01-27, 13:56   Link #2055
HOLLOW08
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Originally Posted by gbanshee View Post
It's because you contradict yourself all the time that I can't take you seriously. You keep quoting things like
"The eyes are useless if the mind is blind"
or
“Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. (...)
And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize,
ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.”

while YOU are the only one that shuts himself off to all other opinions and views.
It's all about Annie for you.
"Looking at a person objectively is another way of saying to look at them logically and judge their actions, solely by what they did, missing out valuable information that can be misinterpreted, and Logic alone cannot explain everything! Because it minimizes a persons view to only seeing things in black and white...missing the grey are which is what you cannot see."
While other here can aknowledge Annie's benevolent side (while still keeping in mind her cruelty), you can only focus on that. Annie is "white" or "gray", but then everyone else is "black" and pure evil for you, mostly because of your misinterpretation of their words and actions (the part about Mikasa being the reason "Eren cut his ties to his human emotions making him turn into his Titan form, and engage Annie in a fight to which more lives were lost!" especially. It was so far-fetched, deprived of common sense and reason that I couldn't help but just laugh).

Look at EremexMikasa shippers they're practically the same...and you think they're any different? Hell no...so keep believeing that my opinions are biased, because you're only seeing me, but you're forgetting that those kind of people exist as well.
I couldn't care less about shippers, so it's completely irrelevant here. I'm not leaning toward neither ErenxMikasa nor ErenxAnnie, but it's clear that your views are EXTREMELY influenced by the latter, to the point of you twisting events and words of characters to make the water flow your way. That is BAD and not objective AT ALL.

I'm sure everyone will agree with me on that your emotional insecurity simply glares through your view of Annie, to the point of it not even being funny anymore. It would be an interesting conversation if you'd be able to provide SOMETHING meaningful and thought inducing in your arguments, but when it's pure Annie clinging while demonizing every other cahracter, then we have nothing serious to talk about. You clearly don't comprehend the plot enough to care about anyone other than Annie-centric universe. Now I can only challenge you to disagree and provide a counter-argument that will somehow uphold your opinion, but please do it reasonably and WITHOUT another of your irrelevant quotes that only serve as a red herring and a device to discredit the other person's views while upheaving yours and turning you into some kind of martyr. Only THEN I can start taking your opinions seriously.
But isn't the whole manga and anime centered around the theme of contradiction, and hypocrisy?

I mean didn't Annie show us that when she spared with Eren, and imposed the concept of how the human race contradicts itself, and how hypocritical the can be...to assume the theme of power, control, and manipulation.

Just look at these words

Power...The Garrison.
Control...The Survey Corps.
Manipulation...The Military.

There's so much darkness in the whole context of it that it literally allows itself to be known in the Manga and Anime itself. The reason why I've been so Anniecentric is because she's ultimately right! And her father practically taught her this when she was a kid. We see her as the necessary evil, without thinking about who the real evil is?

I believe that there is a war, and though Annie has been seen as evil, in all honesty our own enemies may be our closest friends, and that our own friends and families may be our true enemies. Just look at the Annie vs Mikasa! Friend and Family!

Also the concept behind Soldier vs Warrior...

Soldier > Puppet > Conformist > Hypocrite > Mikasa > Jealousy
Warrior > Revolutionist > Rebel > Contradiction > Annie > (?) still trying to find this one out.

Even their fight wasn't shown...these two female characters are the same person, just different sides. One Pale and Wise, the other Dark and Ignorant.

And Eren is stuck in the middle.

Eren comes from a line of Titan Shifters, and possibly a clan of them, and because Annie has been sent out to capture and ultimately recruit him! I believe that when Annie met Eren...she inadvertently met her opposite self. And Annie taught Eren how to fight back, and stand true and firm in his beliefs. But then Eren became voiceless after joining the Survey Corps...there's something about them that I just don't quite trust. One thing that I can say is that they're very controlling of Eren! Even just as Eren was about to shift, they just told him not to, and to trust them...which became their greatest demise, and weighed heavily in Eren's mind that maybe he could have saved them...but those who comply and conform are destined to fall like sheep into a slaughter house, and they ultimately did die in vain.

Also the theme of Choice seems to pop up in this Manga/Anime...the problem is choice! Annie has armed Eren with the ability to choose, since she had none of her own, and admires him deeply because of it...because Eren has a choice. Mikasa seems to be the opposite, since she practically doesn't give Eren the choice to do what's right, although giving him the feeling of having one. Her quote
"The world is a cruel place, yet a beautiful one". There's something about that quote that really irks me the wrong way, it's manipulative in it's own context. I mean she also said that if Eren joins, she joins too, if Eren makes a decision she will honor it...doesn't that seem a little bit consuming. Eren can't seem to find a moment of peace with himself to find his own answers, without his friends commenting and reshaping his view of it. I mean if you're going to give someone a choice at least give it to them.

This is what choice means to me...

"Being solitary is being alone well: being alone luxuriously immersed in doings of your own choice, aware of the fullness of your won presence rather than of the absence of others. Because solitude is an achievement".

Annie was giving Eren a choice to which he never had, and a voice of his own, and also I realized that Eren reminds Annie of her father, and girls do fall in love with guys who remind them of their dads. Annie's father Leonhardt snr may have been cruel to Annie but he was looking out for her best interest at heart. Here's the "kicker" Annie combat pun intended! Eren finds Annies fighting skills fascinating, and wants to learn from her...think about that for a moment!!!? Leonhardt snr teaches Annie combat....Annie finds lessons stupid, but still learns....Annie meets....Annie spars with Eren....Eren finds Annie's techniques fascinating....Eren want's to learn her father's techniques....Annie get's complimented....relationship is made...really think about it for a moment.

Look I know what I want to say...but my brain needs to cool down a bit.

I just re-read everything from beginning to end twice today...and I thought I'd come down and write what I've come up with.

Last edited by HOLLOW08; 2014-01-27 at 14:08.
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Old 2014-01-27, 14:14   Link #2056
gbanshee
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Originally Posted by HOLLOW08 View Post
But isn't the whole manga and anime centered around the theme of contradiction, and hypocrisy?

I mean didn't Annie show us that when she spared with Eren, and imposed the concept of how the human race contradicts itself, and how hypocritical the can be...to assume the theme of power, control, and manipulation.

Just look at these words

Power...The Garrison.
Control...The Survey Corps.
Manipulation...The Military.

There's so much darkness in the whole context of it that it literally allows itself to be known in the Manga and Anime itself. The reason why I've been so Anniecentric is because she's ultimately right! And her father practically taught her this when she was a kid. We see her as the necessary evil, without thinking about who the real evil is?

I believe that there is a war, and though Annie has been seen as evil, in all honesty our own enemies may be our closest friends, and that our own friends and families may be our true enemies. Just look at the Annie vs Mikasa! Friend and Family!

Also the concept behind Soldier vs Warrior...

Soldier > Puppet > Conformist > Hypocrite > Mikasa > Jealousy
Warrior > Revolutionist > Rebel > Contradiction > Annie > (?) still trying to find this one out.

Even their fight wasn't shown...these two female characters are the same person, just different sides. One Pale and Wise, the other Dark and Ignorant.

And Eren is stuck in the middle.

Eren comes from a line of Titan Shifters, and possibly a clan of them, and because Annie has been sent out to capture and ultimately recruit him! I believe that when Annie met Eren...she inadvertently met her opposite self. And Annie taught Eren how to fight back, and stand true and firm in his beliefs. But then Eren became voiceless after joining the Survey Corps...there's something about them that I just don't quite trust. One thing that I can say is that they're very controlling of Eren! Even just as Eren was about to shift, they just told him not to, and to trust them...which became their greatest demise, and weighed heavily in Eren's mind that maybe he could have saved them...but those who comply and conform are destined to fall like sheep into a slaughter house, and they ultimately did die in vain.

Also the theme of Choice seems to pop up in this Manga/Anime...the problem is choice! Annie has armed Eren with the ability to choose, since she had none of her own, and admires him deeply because of it...because Eren has a choice. Mikasa seems to be the opposite, since she practically doesn't give Eren the choice to do what's right, although giving him the feeling of having one. Her quote
"The world is a cruel place, yet a beautiful one". There's something about that quote that really irks me the wrong way, it's manipulative in it's own context. I mean she also said that if Eren joins, she joins too, if Eren makes a decision she will honor it...doesn't that seem a little bit consuming. Eren can't seem to find a moment of peace with himself to find his own answers, without his friends commenting and reshaping his view of it. I mean if you're going to give someone a choice at least give it to them.

This is what choice means to me...

"Being solitary is being alone well: being alone luxuriously immersed in doings of your own choice, aware of the fullness of your won presence rather than of the absence of others. Because solitude is an achievement".

Annie was giving Eren a choice to which he never had, and a voice of his own.

Look I know what I want to say...but my brain needs to cool down a bit.

I just re-read everything from beginning to end twice today...and I thought I'd come down and write what I've come up with.
Okay, THIS? THIS is waaaay better. Now while I may not agree with some of the things you said (but on the other hand you did point out some interesting points), this was less Annie-clingy than your previous posts. The only thing that still rubs me really wrong is how you constantly put Mikasa as the devil opposite to angel Annie. Especially here:

Quote:
Also the concept behind Soldier vs Warrior...

Soldier > Puppet > Conformist > Hypocrite > Mikasa > Jealousy
Warrior > Revolutionist > Rebel > Contradiction > Annie > (?) still trying to find this one out.
Now, are you sure Annie is not a puppet? She is in on it the same way Reiner and Bertholt are, and let me remind you their own words: "We were just brats who knew nothing back then...". And Annie's father? A lot of hints are out there making look like Annie is the one who's a puppet.

The way you keep bringing up Mikasa as the evil counterpart of Annie reminds me a lot of what people do when they're really jealous over someone's relationship and start badmouthing that person. That is not fun at all, it's disturbing.
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Old 2014-01-27, 15:55   Link #2057
HOLLOW08
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Okay, THIS? THIS is waaaay better. Now while I may not agree with some of the things you said (but on the other hand you did point out some interesting points), this was less Annie-clingy than your previous posts. The only thing that still rubs me really wrong is how you constantly put Mikasa as the devil opposite to angel Annie. Especially here:



Now, are you sure Annie is not a puppet? She is in on it the same way Reiner and Bertholt are, and let me remind you their own words: "We were just brats who knew nothing back then...". And Annie's father? A lot of hints are out there making look like Annie is the one who's a puppet.

The way you keep bringing up Mikasa as the evil counterpart of Annie reminds me a lot of what people do when they're really jealous over someone's relationship and start badmouthing that person. That is not fun at all, it's disturbing.
As I said our greatest enemies may be those who wrap themselves as someone whose close...look at Judas as an example! He was one of Jesus's closest blood bother/friend and he ultimately betrayed him in the end, and ultimately all of his other brothers/friends did the same.

Also Religion seems to be apparent in this Manga/Anime too...

Now apply this knowledge to Eren...he's sorrounded by lot's of friends that he cares for, but who's to say that they won't ultimately turn their backs on him...I mean Jean practically wanted the system to stay the same, and didn't care as long as he didn't have to lift heavy objects "Gluttony". Sasha seems to steal a lot of food, to which comes the assumption of "Greed", Connie comes under the assumption of fear "Sloth", Armin is "Pride", Mikasa is most definitely both "Envy/Wrath" , I haven't figured out who "Lust" is yet...but I figure it could be "Erwin", although I'm not sure of it, could be "Levi" but he's too cool for the title. Although Levi kind of reminds me of Vergil from Dante Aligheri's novel Divine Comedy.

Annie, Reiner, Bertholt and Ymir may come under the impression as puppets, but they're kind of are like honest devils, who all want to redeem themselves, and become angels again! Annie above all wants to redeem herself, that's for sure! She practically wants to be close to people and have friends, she so desperately wants to cling to a little part of her humanity that's left in her. Her tears show that she's still human and that she still feels. Look at her memories, and the betrayal that came after. Yes they seem to be controlled by some power behind this, but ultimately they just want to go home, they want to achieve their mission so bad that they're willing to be controlled like puppets just to get the job done.

I respect your opinion...really I do, but I'm not jealous of Mikasa, don't get me wrong because I really like her character, there's attributes to her that I really love, but Mikasa really rubs me up the wrong way, I mean there's "Protecting" the ones you love, and then there's "Obsessing"! I'm sorry but I really have to say this but? There's something very obsessive about Mikasa!!!!!!!!!!!??????????

I know Eren is her only family left, and she doesn't want to be left alone, because loneliness can be torture! But come one Mikasa l find yourself a hobby, do something with your life. If you're clinging to one person then you're not letting them grow independently.

Mikasa is not Evil, but she's slowly falling under the influence...such as her actions when facing Historia just as she's about to kill Ymir indicates that she's willing to cover her hands in blood to get the job done, even if it meant slicing through Historia, even after being begged no too. Since listening to what they can say, and learning the truth can be of valuable information, but Mikasa wanted nothing of it. Not wanting to hear the truth is an act of ignorance in itself. And ignorance is a path to fear, fear is a path to leading to hate, and hate is a path which allows us to be consumed by evil.

Also she didn't want anymore talk when Armin and Eren we're trying to get Annie to speak to them, and tell them the truth, by protesting her innocence, but I doubt they still wouldn't understand < (I despise this word) comprehend her reasons. Out of all the trainees at the academy, the one person who was more mature than the others of their generation was Annie. Like I said "Pale and Wise", she even speaks like an old woman, even making remarks such as trying to teach Eren how to talk to girls, whilst sparring together...though Annie's young she still acts flirtatious, which is fun.

Look I don't really hate Mikasa, as I said she's a brilliant character! But when it comes to a relationship! Is Mikasa right for Eren? That's the question!!!?????

Damn I sound a little bit like Yoda in that paragraph.

I really like that I spoke to you" Because "YOU" and a few people that I've spoke to on other forums above all the people I really respect.
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Old 2014-01-27, 16:20   Link #2058
Kiltias
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Also Religion seems to be apparent in this Manga/Anime too...
If you wanna call the Norse Myths a Religion.....
What was it....The Walls are a Gift of God.
Quote:
In Norse mythology, Mi­gar­r became applied to the wall around the world that the gods constructed from the eyebrows of the giant Ymir as a defence against the Jotuns who lived in Jotunheim, east of Manheimr, the "home of men", a word used to refer to the entire world.

But come on, Jesus?Judas?Sins?Divine Comedy?Are you even aware of the crap you're writing?

It's the NORSE.Not some biblical shit.
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Old 2014-01-27, 16:37   Link #2059
kitten320
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Take off your Annie-colored glasses and look at her objectively. She's no different from Reiner and Bertholt. They all have reasons for their actions I bet, but that doesn't excuse their actions - they do have a lot of empation while in human form, yes, but as soon as they turn into Titans, they're a lot like Eren - frenzied, focused on their bloodlust, desire do destroy and accomplish their mission at all costs, no matter how many people around them die in the process. Only when they're back to their human selves their conscience kicks in.
Well... doesn't that one statement change everything then?
The way you said it basically comes to that, that Annie, Reiner and Bert can't be hated. It is Female, Collosal and Armor Titans' that have to be hated.

Make sure that they can't transform again and ta-dah, all good.

Titan Trio and Eren aren't really that different. If not for Mikasa, Levi, Hanji, Armin and everyone else. Eren would have killed lots of humans himself. We still don't know what or who he really is but Eren simply got lucky to be around the people he is, to be raised where he was.

Titan Trio did not have such luxury, they were raised in different surrounding with different priorities.
Ymir, despite being a titan also lived under different circumstances what puts her between the 2. She is not from Titan village so there is no need for her to kill humans for whatever purpose it might be but she will take action if needed. And even so Ymir chose them over humans. If Eren and Ymir were from the same village as them, they would be the same.


Yes the trio is guilty and needs punishment but they are not evil.
Evil people are those who literally give no shit aka villains like Joffrey, Malificent, Joker and etc.

IF they gave no shit then Connie, Jean, Armin and possibly even Mikasa would be dead right now. Annie alone saved Jean and Connie from getting eaten by titans.

Those 3 saved them when they could have easily looked away and let them die or crush them themselves.

Yes they are villains, yes they are guilty, yes they need some kind of punishment but NO, they are not evil. They made bad choices but they also made good choices, word evil is just too strong for them. Especially for Bert and Annie who did not develop a second personality like Reiner and made all their positive choices rationally while remembering who they are.
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Old 2014-01-27, 16:46   Link #2060
HOLLOW08
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If you wanna call the Norse Myths a Religion.....
What was it....The Walls are a Gift of God.



But come on, Jesus?Judas?Sins?Divine Comedy?Are you even aware of the crap you're writing?

It's the NORSE.Not some biblical shit.
All religions are technically the same religion...just different interpretation.

Such as...

Odin/Zeus/Brahma/Jehovah/Osiris
Thor/Heracles/Visnu/Jesus/Heru(Horus)/Buddha
Loki/Hades/Shiva/Lucifer/Seth

All the same in a way.
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