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Old 2014-01-21, 13:26   Link #1281
shmaster
Hanged Man & Chariot
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ougon no Kemono View Post
Spoiler for Silver Stars Plan:
It is the other way around.
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Old 2014-01-21, 13:35   Link #1282
Ougon no Kemono
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
It is the other way around.
How?
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Old 2014-01-21, 13:41   Link #1283
Richocet
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So how many pages are in this book?
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Old 2014-01-21, 13:54   Link #1284
Acer
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344 pages..
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Old 2014-01-21, 14:12   Link #1285
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i found out that oden did hang himself and rip out his eye to gain power so the fact that othinus is the real oden only gets more realistic also thor and oden have habits of transforming into women in norse mitholigy this tells us they have no clear attachment to there genders so they CAN change genders on whims
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Old 2014-01-21, 14:37   Link #1286
dniv
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Originally Posted by LG-MAX View Post
where it is said that this happened? I remember that Touman did what it could to learn about the situation.
I mean, Touma saved them in NT 7, and then he didn't explore the darkness further. This is clearly different because he has to find out everything... He can't stop half-way, just after he's saved a few people and call it a day...
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Old 2014-01-21, 15:09   Link #1287
LG-MAX
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
I mean, Touma saved them in NT 7, and then he didn't explore the darkness further. This is clearly different because he has to find out everything... He can't stop half-way, just after he's saved a few people and call it a day...
you are judging the situation superficially, Touma was who else knew what was happening (of heroes), he had an idea about agitat holation, was who else was involved with Rensa and knew about its history and the project she was involved, then invaded the hospital and saw the horrible things that were there and stole pieces of brains. he did not know everything, but was very involved in that. not to mention that he remembered this arc that not everyone can be saved.
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Old 2014-01-21, 16:17   Link #1288
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Ougon no Kemono View Post
How?
The "pure world" has no religion, only science.
This is not because of Aleister's tempering, but how it is in the first place.
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Old 2014-01-21, 16:40   Link #1289
Ougon no Kemono
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
The "pure world" has no religion, only science.
This is not because of Aleister's tempering, but how it is in the first place.
Lol, I didn't mean the New World only had science because Silver Star tempered with it.

I just meant that the New World was his objective.

Quote:
“He was the one who created supernatural powers with science.
He was the one who constructed an angel by gathering those powers.
Fiamma of the Right, the one who ruled over Michael, understood what that meant. Creating an angel was not the same thing as simply creating a new type of living creature. They were the symbols of the elements that made up the world. For a human to create one of those, it meant that the system at the base of that world was being artificially interfered with.
Gears created by human hands were being inserted into the mechanisms created by god. It was like remaking a music box into a time bomb.
It was the idea of affirming the occult and then trying to use precise equipment on it.
In an older time, just thinking of those things would get one sent to the gallows.
“…Is Aiwass that attractive an existence?” Fiamma asked. “An angel that cannot be explained by the Bible or theology is also the symbol of an element that is inside this world created by god and also outside of the hands of god. It is the beginning of the destruction of the fate established by god. …You did not want the Book of the Law. You wanted the strange angel that granted you the Book of the Law.”
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:05   Link #1290
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post


He wanted to save all humanity. To do so successfully, he would have needed the Horus Aeon, or at least the abilities it granted. He didn't attain it in 22 not because he didn't want to but because he was mistaken.
I say he didn't want and the act of not wanting to was a limitation on itself, because Fiamma's stuck himself(thanks to his lack of knowledge) on Osiris(and on this series is been stated long time ago that Knowledge = Power).


Quote:
Othinius has her limitations yes, but so what? Are you implying Fiamma doesn't? Everyone has limitations...I'm sure Aleister himself is limited in some sense. It isn't as if Fiamma actually succeeded where Othinius failed. I don't see how that's supposed to make him superior to Othinius especially his La Persona form in vol 22.
I said already post before he has limitations, different kinds of but still limitations.

What I say is her limitation is because she hit her maximum point she could reach.

I don't think either Othinus or Fiamma are superior or inferior since both failed but the former failed on a fundamental level despite being aware of those knowledge Fiamma didn't.

And Aleister isn't perfect, that is far clear or else he wouldn't be coweing upside down on his tube.



Quote:
And for the record....Othinius was never aiming for the Horus Aeon. She just wanted to get her home world back that's all. And that's why I say she may not have considered other possibilities especially when she's already hopelessly lost. There is nothing that precludes her having the potential to attain Horus as well
If she wanted that so badly trying that method wouldn't have hurt. However the fact that she says she tried everything makes me think she indeed tried everything she could reach with her power.


Quote:
You also give Ollerus too much credit when even Laura's agents were able to detect Aleister.
I don't think I'm giving him too much, but just saying that despite being unable to understand what Othinus (partially) wanted he went to a point to gather knowledge that only very few could, that doesn't makes him better or superior but cleary deviates on a path that leads to a better answer unlike Fiamma's and Othinus's method.


Btw, what I see is Othinus tried to reboot the world from the inside as somone who came from the the world while Aleister does it from the 'outside' aka using methods that are out of God's dominion by putting himself on a position that would make him untouchable by the world's laws.
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:09   Link #1291
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
The "pure world" has no religion, only science.
This is not because of Aleister's tempering, but how it is in the first place.
So basically, religion and/or magic is something that came about because filters were added to the world at some point, and the original world had none of that?
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:33   Link #1292
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
So basically, religion and/or magic is something that came about because filters were added to the world at some point, and the original world had none of that?
He means the "pure world" for Aleister, that is a world of science.
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:51   Link #1293
Cosmic Eagle
水銀の蛇
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
So basically, religion and/or magic is something that came about because filters were added to the world at some point, and the original world had none of that?
Yes. Something like that.

The base world has no religion



Whether there is Magic or not is unknown.
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:59   Link #1294
shmaster
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I honestly believe that everyone is reading too much into Othinus' comment on the fundemental "pure world".

She only said three things about it:

1. It is all science.
2. There was no religion.
3. Silver Star is tempering with it.

In other words, this neither prove nor disprove whether magic comes from the fundamental "pure world" or not.
As magic don't necessarily is based on religion, magician do it that way only because it is easier. In other words, there is also the chance magic can be a product of the "pure world" natural development.

Second, it dos not say what Aleister is doing to the fundamental "pure world". Esper power is also something hard to classify. We know it is not magic, but it isn't pure science either due to its association with book of law, which really came from Aiwass and not Aleister.
In other words, is Aleister rally doing something to the "pure world" or just using something that already existed in there?

The information from Othinus is so minimal that the interpretation go can everyway.
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Old 2014-01-21, 19:10   Link #1295
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
I say he didn't want and the act of not wanting to was a limitation on itself, because Fiamma's stuck himself(thanks to his lack of knowledge) on Osiris(and on this series is been stated long time ago that Knowledge = Power).



I said already post before he has limitations, different kinds of but still limitations.

What I say is her limitation is because she hit her maximum point she could reach.

I don't think either Othinus or Fiamma are superior or inferior since both failed but the former failed on a fundamental level despite being aware of those knowledge Fiamma didn't.

And Aleister isn't perfect, that is far clear or else he wouldn't be coweing upside down on his tube.




If she wanted that so badly trying that method wouldn't have hurt. However the fact that she says she tried everything makes me think she indeed tried everything she could reach with her power.



I don't think I'm giving him too much, but just saying that despite being unable to understand what Othinus (partially) wanted he went to a point to gather knowledge that only very few could, that doesn't makes him better or superior but cleary deviates on a path that leads to a better answer unlike Fiamma's and Othinus's method.


Btw, what I see is Othinus tried to reboot the world from the inside as somone who came from the the world while Aleister does it from the 'outside' aka using methods that are out of God's dominion by putting himself on a position that would make him untouchable by the world's laws.
Well thing is....Fiamma doesn't know Horus Aeon entails that necessary amount of ambition for the self so to speak. Can't really say it as he didn't want the Horus Aeon when what he didn't want was to rech to such heights greater than what he thought necessary. He didn't know the Horus Aeon was at that level after all....or anything much about it, it seems. Limited by his dogma but that doesn't = he wouldn't want it if he knew the truth about it.


And like I said how do you know she's hit her max potential? People who are in despair and desperate think they have run out of options when reality is not so in many cases. There's simply too little to say she has hit her max potential at this point.


Well, you can give Ollerus props for doing research but then again....he's fighting a war against OT after all. Apart from that...whether he's going in the right direction is still unknown. Except that at this point his ability and knowledge is insignificant to OT.




Yes, Aleister effectively raised himself over everything, leaving him free to act as he will, in this case, directly access the base world. OT OTOH is trying to reclaim her home world nso of course, she'll do it as an inhabitant of that lost world.

It's more a goal difference as well.
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Old 2014-01-21, 19:18   Link #1296
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Limited by his dogma but that doesn't = he wouldn't want it if he knew the truth about it.
Hipothesis based on my view about Fiamma, just that.

Quote:
And like I said how do you know she's hit her max potential? People who are in despair and desperate think they have run out of options when reality is not so in many cases. There's simply too little to say she has hit her max potential at this point.
I say that because every antagonist on the series reaches their peak before their fall.
Fiamma was in dispair because his plain failed.
Izzard too.
And so on, many characters reached their peak before their fall? If they had suppsosedly the power to reach their goal, why did they fail? Because even them weren't sure their method would actually work and this has been adressed several times.

Quote:
It's more a goal difference as well.
Different goals but only one 100% succes method and it seems Aleisters has that.
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Old 2014-01-21, 19:22   Link #1297
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Hipothesis based on my view about Fiamma, just that.


I say that because every antagonist on the series reaches their peak before their fall.
Fiamma was in dispair because his plain failed.
Izzard too.
And so on, many characters reached their peak before their fall? If they had suppsosedly the power to reach their goal, why did they fail? Because even them weren't sure their method would actually work and this has been adressed several times.


Different goals but only one 100% succes method and it seems Aleisters has that.
Fiamma was not at his peak...that's the point. He's at the peak of the severely limited Osiris Aeon....which in itself is just a phase. Another filter.

Fiamma, Othinius, Aleister....they are not the same as your random mooks like Aureolus or the Roman Catholic church


Aleister doesn't have a 100% success method.....Like you said, if he had, his plan would long be completed.
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Old 2014-01-21, 19:52   Link #1298
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Fiamma was not at his peak...that's the point. He's at the peak of the severely limited Osiris Aeon....which in itself is just a phase. Another filter.
That was his peak, on his limited state.

Quote:
Fiamma, Othinius, Aleister....they are not the same as your random mooks like Aureolus or the Roman Catholic church
I mean in the structure of their story.

Quote:
Aleister doesn't have a 100% success method.....Like you said, if he had, his plan would long be completed.
He has it, but still can use it as he wish.
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Old 2014-01-21, 21:35   Link #1299
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
That was his peak, on his limited state.


I mean in the structure of their story.


He has it, but still can use it as he wish.
And we're talking about potential here. Nothing to do with one's limited state. Precisely the opposite in fact.

your point was why Othinius wasn't higher than everyone else barring Aleister and Aiwass. That she was actually quite lower down than that

Quote:
So Othinus with her powers she really is below Christianism/Osiris?
You have read the thing as well no? Which part were you basing that off from? If anything NT 9 shows that the Osiris and Isis Aeons are below Othinius as they are part of phases as well.

He doesn't. Horus power is the highest we have but there isn't anything meriting saying it's 100% successful.
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Old 2014-01-21, 21:55   Link #1300
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
And we're talking about potential here. Nothing to do with one's limited state. Precisely the opposite in fact.
Oh that? Didn't I say Othinus hit her peak for the same reasons Fiamma did but unlike Fiamma she had the knowledge needed?

Quote:
your point was why Othinius wasn't higher than everyone else barring Aleister and Aiwass. That she was actually quite lower down than that
No at all, my point was Othinus despite having a big/broken power they way is used makes her go below those and my reasoning is based on hypothesis of her using all she could do and not taking everything she says at face value. Just like Fiamma could make all the claims he did during WWIII but then hitting the floor at the reality.

Quote:
You have read the thing as well no? Which part were you basing that off from? If anything NT 9 shows that the Osiris and Isis Aeons are below Othinius as they are part of phases as well.
No, from what I got(from chinese trans) each Aeon has different phases cuz the aeons are just the classification for each of them.

Phases 1,2, 3> Aeon A
Phases X, Y, Z > Aeon B

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
He doesn't. Horus power is the highest we have but there isn't anything meriting saying it's 100% successful.
There is few info about Horus but seeing broken characters that are out of the countable realm like Aleister and Aiwass I can tell Othinus is within the countable world miles away.
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