AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2014-01-26, 16:29   Link #33881
theforgot3n1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
By the way, Alpha, how come Battler can't set the chain from the outside in that closed room in ep 6? I am trying to look through the red truths right now, but I can't find one pertaining to that. Is it a general definition?
theforgot3n1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-26, 16:35   Link #33882
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
It's a common-sense ruling. If a lock can be set from outside a room, it also means it can be unset, which would undo its purpose as a locking mechanism.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-26, 21:07   Link #33883
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by theforgot3n1 View Post
By the way, Alpha, how come Battler can't set the chain from the outside in that closed room in ep 6? I am trying to look through the red truths right now, but I can't find one pertaining to that. Is it a general definition?
It's a requisite for the closed room to be closed room.

I think Beato defined closed rooms in Ep 3 but in Ep 6 is also confirmed in red.

Quote:
"Then let's get started with the closed rooms of the first twilight. ......First, I'd like to check. Do you intend to respond if I ask you to repeat something in red?"

"Depending on what you say, yes. I have no obligation to respond to all, and I won't reveal my reasons when I refuse."
"<Good>. ......Then let's start simple and confirm the definition of a closed room. Dlanor! Please read it aloud."

"UNDERSTOOD. ......We demand that the following be REPEATED."

Dlanor spread out one of those scrolls that some official would always spread out when announcing the king in western fairy tales, and read it aloud.

"First. 'The rooms with the six people in them are all closed ROOMS'."
"Acknowledged. Of course, that's only until Gohda and the others severed the chains and destroyed the closed rooms."

At a nod from Dlanor, Cornelia, who stood behind her, started taking notes.

"Second. 'The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE'."
"Acknowledged."

"......In other words, no trickery done from the outside can construct a closed room. It is not permitted for a chain lock to be reset from the outside by a skillfully used wire, for example."
"I didn't need you to tell me that. Dlanor, please continue."
In short, as it's impossible to construct the closed room from the outside, the chain can't be set from the outside in the game... even if probably in real life with the proper tools you could manage to do it.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-27, 08:02   Link #33884
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
I think "Every closed room is indeed perfectly sealed" is a fundamental, unbreakable rule of Beatrice's games anyway. She uses magic, not tricks.

In any case though, remember that the ep6 logic error has to be about the heart of the game. That means some silly wording trick just won't cut it.
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-27, 10:10   Link #33885
theforgot3n1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Well, if we assume Battler (or Kanon) is a really freaking accurate guy when it comes to throwing things, couldn't he walk out of the room while holding the chain, throw it into the air to make it land perfectly to fit into whatever makes the chain lock while closing the door. Or if Kanon was better suited for it, he could have tried it instead after having swapped with Battler.

I reckon that would satisfy all the conditions of Battler getting out? It's a pretty crazy idea though. Some simple red like "gravity is not sufficient to lock the chain" would easily tear it apart. That was the only little reasoning I made myself, and I honestly thought it was at least okay, but was saddened they didn't ball the idea at all.

Don't want too many point in the same post, but wasn't killing all those corpses completely unnecessary? It was confirmed in red that everyone else is in the room next to the one with five people in it, so wouldn't that include the people that pretended to be dead, making it impossible for them to have actually been pretending to be dead?

Last edited by theforgot3n1; 2014-01-27 at 11:28.
theforgot3n1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-27, 12:02   Link #33886
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by theforgot3n1 View Post
Don't want too many point in the same post, but wasn't killing all those corpses completely unnecessary? It was confirmed in red that everyone else is in the room next to the one with five people in it, so wouldn't that include the people that pretended to be dead, making it impossible for them to have actually been pretending to be dead?
This would include Battler and Erika as well though, although Kinzo was excluded.
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-27, 17:31   Link #33887
theforgot3n1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
This would include Battler and Erika as well though, although Kinzo was excluded.
Yeah, that's right as well... how is that explained? Did she exclude Erika and Battler as well, maybe implying also the exclusion of the pretending people?
theforgot3n1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-27, 17:38   Link #33888
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
The actual red text is:
Quote:
[Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
So it's only Erika who is unaccounted for, which is probably just an oversight on Ryukishi's part.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-27, 19:26   Link #33889
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Has anyone read the Dawn manga? Ryukishi may have corrected it there, like he corrected Banquet's first twilight.
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-28, 16:33   Link #33890
theforgot3n1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
The actual red text is:


So it's only Erika who is unaccounted for, which is probably just an oversight on Ryukishi's part.
Though I do think he's said sometimes that "the detective can't be the culprit" or something along those lines.
theforgot3n1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-28, 17:14   Link #33891
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by theforgot3n1 View Post
Though I do think he's said sometimes that "the detective can't be the culprit" or something along those lines.
That is missing the point though, as Erika being together with "everyone else", would mean that she cannot go to Battler in the mansion.
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-28, 17:33   Link #33892
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
You can make a fairly consistent claim that Erika is a personality of someone in the cousins' room, or a shakier (can you sever the head of a personality?) claim that she's a personality of one of the first twilight victims (the advantage of this is that it would allow Erika to be Kyrie or Eva).

I can see some appeal in this interpretation, but I think it's more likely that Erika is an actual person and Ryukishi just made a mistake.
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-01-28, 17:35   Link #33893
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
You can make a fairly consistent claim that Erika is a personality of someone in the cousins' room, or a shakier (can you sever the head of a personality?) claim that she's a personality of one of the first twilight victims (the advantage of this is that it would allow Erika to be Kyrie or Eva).

I can see some appeal in this interpretation, but I think it's more likely that Erika is an actual person and Ryukishi just made a mistake.
Erika cannot be one of the first twilight victims as that would mean that she commited suicide and therefore cannot check Battler's room. The fact that Erika told Battler in red that the 1st twilight victims cannot save him proves that they were physically killed.

On the other hand, Erika being one of the 5 people in the "next room over" is certainly a possibility.
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-02-03, 07:12   Link #33894
PsychoShion
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Age: 39
magic truth = witch culprit RED TRUTH

HUMAN TRUTH = ROSA CULPRIT BLUE TRUTH

GOLDEN TRUTH = SHKANONTRICE

I BELIEVE THE BLUE TRUTH (DENYING WITCHES) WAS THE REAL HIDDEN 3rd LAYER AS MENTIONED IN "OUR CONFESSION". THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE BEATRICE WAS REFERING TO ONLY 1 in a thousand will figure it out.

the human culprit scenario is never solved unlike the obvious witch theory , and the golden truth is told in ep 7 with the yasu theory .

I BELIEVE THAT THE YASU theory even though it might be r07's golden truth, it was desinged to make you stop looking. i call it the trap.

YASU IS NOT IN 8 and everyones in 8. battler doesnt tell ANGE THAT THIS IS YASU'S STORY.

this IS MARIA'S, ROSA'S, and ANGE'S STORY AND THE RESULT THAT OCCURED AFTER ANGE AND ROSA DENIED MARIA'S MAGIC . ISNT THAT WHAT BATTLERS PURPOSE IN THE GAME? TO DOUBT MAGIC. I DONT BELIEVE BATTLER EXISTS AND ONLY USED AS THE READER"S PIECE.

DID anyone notice how it seemed rosa got to the gold first and at the same time beatrice showed the ceramony of passing her title to eva?

seems like rosa gave her the gold and then set her up to take the blame.. in later eps we see beatrice waiting in the gold room when someone solves the riddle, funny how rosa was standing right behind her. rosa didnt want the gold just off the island
__________________
PsychoShion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-02-03, 10:15   Link #33895
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
You are very loud. Also your evidence is just circumstancial at best. But of course as long as it cannot be 100% denied, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-02-03, 12:55   Link #33896
Dormin
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
I believe the 3rd layer/story mentioned in our confessions is the take that Yasu wasn't a violent killer but a suffering angsty girl. Our confessions, and pretty much every board, is written into existence by painting Yasu as the killer.

Therefore the truth that only some people are able to arrive would be Yasu as a pure maiden-type of character.

That's my take though. The intention of the hinted "hidden story" in our confessions is pretty much arguable.
Dormin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-02-03, 13:38   Link #33897
The Goat
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Going with what was said about Erika, what are people's thoughts on Erika being another facet of Shkanon? It was something I toyed with while reading the 6th novel, but then threw away.

Also, for PsychoShion: do you believe that the stories we are told have Rosa as a culprit, or merely that that is what really happened?
The Goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-02-03, 14:41   Link #33898
Dormin
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
I find it hard to believe, as erika is clearly linked to bern. Going along this path bern should also be a personality of yasu. Now I can't actually argue about this on a deeper level than 'interesting thought'. Though I believe that interpretation where every meta-character can be seen as personality/trait of yasu is an interesting train of thought and something I used to consider somewhat plausible myself.
Dormin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-02-03, 14:53   Link #33899
The Goat
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Hm, I had not concidered her connection to Bern. I had always liked the idea as it seemed Yasu would have wanted to "play the mystery game" with Battler as she tries to do in ep 5, in a way, and that she was responsible for the murders in the 6th, as Yasu usually is. Also, in the fourth game Battler mentions that he may be interested in lolita characters, so I figured Yasu created Erika to cater to that need.

I have also toyed with the idea that all of the meta world and the people in it are connected to real people, may I ask why you do not concider this plausible any longer?
The Goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-02-03, 15:09   Link #33900
Dormin
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
If I had to say, probably because the entire theory was always on an "interesting theory" stage. One of the reasons is also that it is somewhat clearly stated what characters are "canonically" part of yasu.

For example, I could say that Featherine as a person could represent Yasu and her love towards literature and detective novels, making Featherine part of Yasu and even probably somewhat fitting character to explain certain aspects of her character. However, this adds nothing to the story being neither important plot point nor actually foreshadowed, leaving entire theory as something that can be described as "interesting but totally pointless theory".

So in other words, I could never come up with anything relevant outside funny train of thought. But it's fun to toy with: for example bern and yasu clearly share some characteristics, namely the love for pranks and trolling. This way entire story itself could be seen as a mashup of Yasu as a person.

But this should be not taken as my disbelief towards the clear links in the story: it is clear that meta is connected to reality and for example siestas are clearly metaphors for guns etc. I am simply stating that the theory of every character being an presentation of Yasu itself is bit far-fetched.
Dormin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.