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Old 2014-01-30, 13:59   Link #1
cyth
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Question What to think of speculative posts by people who have a history of spoiling?

What to think of speculative posts by people who have a history of spoiling?

Since my last spoiler thread, I have been pretty active in pointing out spoiler posts. I'm in a bit of a dilemma right now because I stumbled upon a post by a repeated offender of the spoiler rules, who obviously knows the material he's speculating about, but who adds a disclaimer to his speculation, such as "just a guess".

It would be fair not to treat these people like offenders, even if they've done it in the past (for the same series), on the other hand there is no guarantee to know they haven't actually spoiled it and just dressed it up as speculation. I know moderators have dealt with people like this in the past, but this is my first time coming across such a case personally.

I guess the only option here is for me to kindly ask people who do this to stop doing it.

Another solution, one that may not be so nice on the ears, is to suggest to ban people from specific threads (I know some forum softwares allow such control granularity, if not plugins). I know this doesn't completely solve the issue (since people are crazy), but I guess it's an attempt?

For now I have reported the member, but I'd like to hear some guidelines on how to deal with such people. Trust is really, really hard to restore once broken.
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Old 2014-01-30, 14:08   Link #2
hyl
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Wasn't this issue addressed somewhere in the spoiler policy threads (i think i have seen it a few times)? Because it's known that there people pretending that they have not read the original source while spoiling some future content in their posts
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Old 2014-01-30, 14:11   Link #3
cyth
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Yeah, it was (I don't remember where though), but this isn't just a how-to inquiry, it's also a plea to the offenders to stop doing it, as well as a suggestion on how to solve the issue (with compromise). If those threads were forgotten, this only confirms we need to raise awareness again.

EDIT: Also, to clarify why I suggested banning from specific threads ... Because these people have been warned, banned (for days), but still come back and ruin the series again for everyone. Banning them from threads/subforums (and locking their ability to edit their previous posts) will assure they don't do this again. They aren't banned from the forum, but it is a good lesson going forward.

Also, I know that moderators/admins aren't fans of such techical suggestions if such features aren't officially supported by vBulletin, but think of them as features that attempt to improve the overall user experience. Personally I'd invest in (at the very least) looking into them and doing a cost/gain analysis.
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Old 2014-01-30, 15:49   Link #4
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If someone has so little discipline that we need to coddle them and ban them on a thread-by-thread basis because they just can't help themselves, it would be much, much easier just to ban them entirely since they aren't obeying the forum rules. I personally don't have any interest in making thread-banning part of our general policy for dealing with rule-breakers.

That being said...

The line between "speculation" and "spoilers" (even by our definition) isn't always so clear. Just because someone knows some things about the source material doesn't mean that everything they state is based on source knowledge, or that there aren't any areas that may still be completely open for speculation. We definitely do act in cases where it's clear the poster is trying to be "clever" about what they do and don't know. But sometimes it isn't so clean-cut. We don't generally issue bans on suspicions alone.

If people want to compare to the source material for things already shown, they must use spoiler tags. One of the reasons we have this rule is because anime-only viewers should be aware that the points source readers bring up in these sorts of comparisons are usually there for a reason that will become more apparent later on. Just knowing what points they think are worth mentioning can, in some cases, be a bit of a spoiler even if it doesn't say what's going to happen. So in this case, using properly-labelled tags gives people the option to avoid it. (Also, the entire speculation should be tagged, not just the one line that seems most egregious or whatever. The context is part of the spoiler.)

If people are posting untagged comparisons, even for things already shown, then it needs to be tagged and can be reported.
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Old 2014-04-21, 10:45   Link #5
cyth
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I'm just going to address my issues about spoilers here. I know mods must be sick of dealing with them, with the new season starting and all, but my complaint goes back to what I said about casual spoiler culture.

I've done my fair share of spoiler reporting, and what I've noticed is that it takes far too long to address all the submitted alerts. So can you please ask some more people to moderate the forums, especially the more spoilerific threads like the Mahouka anime thread?

I'm sick to the bones of users thinking they own the place because they read the LN. I'm starting to believe that normal discussion isn't possible with such folk, simply because they know too much, and the details that the thread would have eventually fleshed out for itself are being handed to us on a platter by the more knowledgeable LN readers. That's one of the less crude problems, but annoying all the same. Even bigger are senior forum members (and even a moderator!) that join the spoilerfest when everyone's in the mood. It's as if the manga & LN subforums do not exist.

I'm at a loss for hope that popular anime with existing media franchises will ever be able to have respectful conversations about anime. I'm done playing Mr Policeman and get constantly spoiled. People haven't even been banned, they just got warnings and posts deleted. I imagine that by now half the Mahouka spoiler zealots would have been off the forum. These people don't learn, this is also why I suggested issuing thread bans, not forum-wide bans. A part of the problem lies with some of the moderators, because you're being too "nice", for lack of a better word, and see banning your peers over mistakes you yourselves made an injust action. The way the Mahouka thread is, we'll never have a clean discussion there.

Also, one-day and one-week bans are meaningless, because most anime are of weekly episodic format. There's a new opportunity to spoil people every week.

Perhaps food for thought: what is the spoiler policy's punishment meant to do? Is it meant to punish offending users and correct their behavior or is it intended to protect the quality of discussion directly? At this point I really do believe quality of discussion would be lifted if us geezers didn't constantly have to remind everyone what kind of jerks you are for being spoiler sports/unable to stop them.
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Old 2014-04-21, 11:09   Link #6
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Look, I am just as annoyed at people posting hints as everyone else, but you have to understand conversely that just because someone is a novel reader doesn't mean that every single comment they make is a spoiler or hint in disguise. I've seen all the reports you've sent, and some of them are literally things the anime itself covered, whether in the episodes themselves or in the specials that preceded it. Just because you don't remember it from the anime doesn't mean it wasn't covered there are wasn't talking about things clearly shown there. Also, you have to understand that our spoiler policy does have some limited exceptions that can be posted under clearly marked spoiler tags:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiler Policy
Exceptions:
Spoilers are permitted in limited circumstances, provided that they are posted under clearly marked spoiler tags. These exceptions include:
  • Posting and discussing content found on official sites or blogs.
  • Answering specific questions about past or current events using knowledge of the source material, so long as these questions will not be answered by the adaptation itself in the future. (We strongly encourage posters to discuss any spoilers via PM, rather than in the work's discussion thread.)
  • Comparing events in an adaptation to the way they were presented in the source material or other adaptations. (Discussions about the source material itself, or extended comparisons should be directed to the appropriate manga/novel/game thread.)
  • Comparing one story to another, when such comparisons are useful or informative. (These spoiler tags must always be labeled with the name of the other work whose spoilers it contains.)
Some of the posts you reported (including the one you mentioned by a member of the staff) were in fact following these rules to the letter. If you don't agree with those exceptions that's something else, but don't report things that the rules allow and then get mad when we don't act on it to your satisfaction.

Basically, you can't just assume that every single post from a novel reader is somehow tainted and slipping you novel information that you couldn't get from watching the anime on its own. There are multiple moderators familiar with both the anime and the novels moderating that thread (also including anime-only viewers), and we are trying very hard to make sure that spoilers stay out. But you are taking pretty much every single comment made by anyone who has ever visited the novel forum as "tainted", and the only way to meet your "requirement" would basically be to kick them all off the site entirely. And that's something we're not going to do. (And no, we can't kick them permanently out of the anime thread either; that's not technically possible in this software. And even if we could do it technically, we wouldn't do that if people aren't really breaking the rules.)
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Old 2014-04-21, 11:21   Link #7
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I've done my fair share of spoiler reporting, and what I've noticed is that it takes far too long to address all the submitted alerts. So can you please ask some more people to moderate the forums, especially the more spoilerific threads like the Mahouka anime thread?
Not all reports have to be dealt with, considering you and some people confuse blatant spoilers with genuine speculation or additional information that absolutely do not have any spoiling attribute (the whole backlash with Yoku Wakaru special was one of these).

For instance, you did report this post despite... every detail were shown in the said episode, and several non LN non manga mod could testify it isn't spoiling at all.
Likewise, you also reported things like... novel/manga comparisons, which are allowed provided they follow the rules (no spoiler and properly tagged). Guess what? These followed the rules appropriately, yet you reported them.

At some point, some people being too touchy with spoilers (be it you or anyone else) start seeing anything as spoiler, while some are genuine summary or speculations.

Also, we already increased our ranks quite recently, and considering how things are dealt, I -really- doubt bloating the mod team even more would give any instantaneous spoiler removal, unless you ask us to have a dedicated mod refreshing the thread page every 5 seconds.
Quote:
I'm at a loss for hope that popular anime with existing media franchises will ever be able to have respectful conversations about anime. I'm done playing Mr Policeman and get constantly spoiled. People haven't even been banned, they just got warnings and posts deleted. I imagine that by now half the Mahouka spoiler zealots would have been off the forum. These people don't learn, this is also why I suggested issuing thread bans, not forum-wide bans. A part of the problem lies with some of the moderators, because you're being too "nice", for lack of a better word, and see banning your peers over mistakes you yourselves made an injust action. The way the Mahouka thread is, we'll never have a clean discussion there.
Except that:
1) People are getting banned for such offense, and Mahouka isn't any exception.
2) the sheer number of potential spoilers doesn't mean all of these LN readers are making such offense, even moreso if it is basically spread among them.
Likewise, some posts are unjustly labeled as spoilers because the said poster is a known LN reader despite the post itself isn't any spoiler.
3) I find it funny you consider us as too nice, despite we punished people for even mentioning name of characters not being there, despite knowing a mere name won't have any impact (unless, for example, the name of a character who is supposed to be dead etc).

Quote:
Also, one-day and one-week bans are meaningless, because most anime are of weekly episodic format. There's a new opportunity to spoil people every week.
As far as it go, the number of recidivating members is extremely low. Concluding it is meaningless is just exaggeration if you ask me.
Quote:
Perhaps food for thought: what is the spoiler policy's punishment meant to do? Is it meant to punish offending users and correct their behavior or is it intended to protect the quality of discussion directly? At this point I really do believe quality of discussion would be lifted if us geezers didn't constantly have to remind everyone what kind of jerks you are for being spoiler sports/unable to stop them.
Both. Speaking of offense, most people avoid doing the same mistake. Whereas spoiler infraction are one of the most common issues we have to deal with, it is also one issue that is rarely even repeated by the offender, and if they did, the ban duration increment (and ultimately permanent ban) does the job.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2014-04-21 at 11:43.
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Old 2014-04-21, 13:01   Link #8
cyth
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OK, for the specific example, FLT Servers weren't mentioned anywhere, nor their function, nor that Tatsuya could access them. This is all technobabble from the novels and you just assume people know what it means, because you're close to the material. An honest mistake, but there you have it.

Second, how the hell is anyone from us anime-only watchers supposed to know whether something not mentioned by a point in an adaptation isn't going to be mentioned sometime later? One specific example from Mahouka would be Hattori's undefeated record, which got blatantly spoiled and everyone saw it, unneeded info that was presented in the next episode. This is why I report all such spoilers, even if properly tagged. You simply cannot be sure.

Before you ask, yes, I've taken it upon myself to check all "properly tagged" spoilers, because I'd like for offenders to readjust their attitude or be out of the thread ASAP. I'm not discriminating against LN readers, I don't even know who visits the LN forum, but it would sure be nice if they could pretend they never read anything before the anime. It's hard not to discuss a character as if you never known it, but half the forum calling Miyuki a yandere because she froze her kitchen so early, or fanboying over other characters that were barely shown and complaining how they didn't do this and that properly ... Those things color my perception of them and my spoiler senses start tingling. It's not just the story that can be spoiled, but whatever.

My honest feeling: I'd love to commend you for doing a good job, because you're probably putting in an insane amount of effort, it's just not enough. And if even my over-reporting isn't helping the situation, then I'm sure things won't improve to my liking. I'm there for the discussion, but the discussion's value is being eroded by everyone who has read the source material and not aligning slightest to what us anime-only folks are experiencing. This creates a certain atmosphere, a particularly unpleasant one for me. So I bid adieu to the thread, in anticipation of better times. Otsukaresan.
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Old 2014-04-21, 13:48   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
OK, for the specific example, FLT Servers weren't mentioned anywhere, nor their function, nor that Tatsuya could access them. This is all technobabble from the novels and you just assume people know what it means, because you're close to the material. An honest mistake, but there you have it.

Second, how the hell is anyone from us anime-only watchers supposed to know whether something not mentioned by a point in an adaptation isn't going to be mentioned sometime later? One specific example from Mahouka would be Hattori's undefeated record, which got blatantly spoiled and everyone saw it, unneeded info that was presented in the next episode. This is why I report all such spoilers, even if properly tagged. You simply cannot be sure.
The first example doesn't really have any impact to the story whatsoever, since it doesn't reveal anything. While it is a mistake that shouldn't be there to begin with, its impact isn't so important that would warrant a mod intervention.
That's similar to how people can dig the name of all characters due to seiyuu cast list that can be found anywhere in the internet. If you really believe this should be classified as spoiler, you are bound to remove EVERY information that the anime hasn't disclosed at all, including seiyuu list and the likes. Such extent is ridiculous.

As for the second example, it is classified as "proper" spoiler, and has been dealt by one of the mods, and within 15 minutes after it has been reported, so I don't see why you ever mention that.
Quote:
Before you ask, yes, I've taken it upon myself to check all "properly tagged" spoilers, because I'd like for offenders to readjust their attitude or be out of the thread ASAP.
You are mistaking your own expectation of the thread with what we have established thus far.
Our forum rules specifically addressed this issue: should someone want to post comparison with the original material, they are allowed to do so, as long as it isn't disruptive (pinpoint comparison, not a full rant), properly spoiler tagged (with a correct label) and void of actual spoilers.

Due to your remarks and your reports, I take it that you just don't want them to be in the thread to begin with, and suffice to say, that's absolutely not shared with our thread policies.
Quote:
I'm not discriminating against LN readers, I don't even know who visits the LN forum, but it would sure be nice if they could pretend they never read anything before the anime.
That's not exactly feasible considering how knowledge already paint your expectations right from the get go, which is actually something you also regretted as well, due to things you shouldn't have known.
Beyond the fact perspective has been already altered to begin with, it also forces people to do things they aren't able to do anymore, so it lead to contradicting behaviour and replies if not handled properly.

Finally, it would be another problem if people actually keep such attitude and that unintentional spoilers (like the first exemple) seep in by accident.
Quote:
It's hard not to discuss a character as if you never known it, but half the forum calling Miyuki a yandere because she froze her kitchen so early, or fanboying over other characters that were barely shown and complaining how they didn't do this and that properly ... Those things color my perception of them and my spoiler senses start tingling. It's not just the story that can be spoiled, but whatever.
You are dealing with people who also share opinions from another perspective. As long it doesn't go against our rules and policies, they are to stay.

At this point, your thread expectations are completely personal, and hardly possible to satisfy considering how our forums work.

Quote:
My honest feeling: I'd love to commend you for doing a good job, because you're probably putting in an insane amount of effort, it's just not enough. And if even my over-reporting isn't helping the situation, then I'm sure things won't improve to my liking. I'm there for the discussion, but the discussion's value is being eroded by everyone who has read the source material and not aligning slightest to what us anime-only folks are experiencing. This creates a certain atmosphere, a particularly unpleasant one for me. So I bid adieu to the thread, in anticipation of better times. Otsukaresan.
I will be blunt: over reporting do not make things any easier. To the contrary: they slow us down.
Mahouka is a glaring example of that: in order to be sure that we aren't infracting people for unfair reasons, we have to debate if the said reported post is indeed spoiling or not, and sometimes, we need several opinions from different mods to ensure the decision isn't flawed.

This is even more true when reports send us to speculations, comparisons and the likes. They simply give more workload for nothing, and having multiple reports for things that are allowed by our forums rules just don't make things any easier. And that thread isn't our only worry since everyday activities won't suddenly stop either, so piling all these reports just worsen things and do not help for their intended purpose.

And as much as it may displease you, we are now in an era that source material are much easier to get, be it due to translations flying everywhere and the likes. And unless you want us to literally ban any source material reader in the anime thread (implying that we can discern EVERY members potentially in such category), your conception of anime only thread is beyond unfeasible.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2014-04-21 at 14:40.
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Old 2014-04-21, 14:00   Link #10
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@cyth - As a fellow anime-only viewer, I definitely see what you're seeing here, but I think we've just reached a critical mass here. I mean, the anime fandom culture has just changed drastically over the past few years when it comes to source material familiarity. With anything pretty popular and not anime-original, I'd guess that 95% or more of the people commenting on it here on Anime Suki have already read/played the source material. And that applies to the anime threads as well. And maybe with the exception of the anime blogosphere, I find that this is reflective of the online anime fandom in general (i.e. it's not just Anime Suki).

I've been on the other side (familiar with the source material before watching an adaptation of it) enough to know that it's just human nature to look for similarities and differences between the narrative you've experienced before and that same adapted narrative you're watching now. It's very easy to fall into that sort of focus, and when the overwhelming majority of people you're discussing something with share that focus, it will inevitably seep into discussions.

So barring some ridiculously draconian scorched earth zero tolerance policy, I don't know what the AS Moderating Staff can reasonably be expected to do to completely shut this down. It's at a point where I just hope that source material fans can at least keep the big surprises secret (think "Luke, I am your father" level, only way back when the movie with that line was fresh out in theaters), but I fully expect to get spoiled (one way or another) on a lot of minor details if I enter into threads like the Mahouka series thread.

The thing is that people like you and I - People who typically just want the anime, and aren't necessarily interested in the source material - We're a tiny, tiny minority now. It's unfortunate for us, but it's just the way it is.


I've personally given a lot of thought on AS' spoiler policies, as it's something I've discussed multiple times here over the years, and honestly, I have my doubts there's anything better than the balance we have in place right now.
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Old 2014-04-21, 14:09   Link #11
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Unfortunately in this day and age it is nay impossible to have discussions on adapted material as if everyone was a first time viewer. I understand the sentiment, and I am one of those mahouka LN readers who put up comparison posts with spoiler tags so i feel partially responsible, but it just isn't realistic.

I think most of the Mahouka readers have treated everyone quite fairly in the thread so far (besides a few rotten occasional spoiler posts). Believe me, a lot of us would love to use future information to debunk many arguments and assertions made about the material, but we don't because it's out of respect for the new viewers.

Compared to early days of the SAO threads, it's been quite pleasant I would say.
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Old 2014-04-21, 14:59   Link #12
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The first example doesn't really have any impact to the story whatsoever, since it doesn't reveal anything. While it is a mistake that shouldn't be there to begin with, its impact isn't so important that would warrant a mod intervention.
I disagree. The only reason you're seeing it as unimportant is because you already contextualized it, a luxury anime-only viewers don't have. If a show doesn't have an original work predating it, then naturally discussion participants claw at such information to make sense of them. Much like how it happened with Fractale where we analyzed each frame to get more information about how nanomachines work, for example. So, yes, I can classify it as minor if I have proper context (which I didn't). Maybe mods can take this into consideration and not treat us like we're nitpicking when submitting reports.

Quote:
Due to your remarks and your reports, I take it that you just don't want them to be in the thread to begin with, and suffice to say, that's absolutely not shared with our thread policies.
Absolutely not. But I acknowledge the discussion so far has been difficult.

Quote:
At this point, your thread expectations are completely personal, and hardly possible to satisfy considering how our forums work.
My only expectation was for the thread not to develop a casual spoiler culture. In the opening post I mentioned JoJo's thread. What is unreasonable here is the expectation us anime-only watchers should "just deal with it" because "things are the way they are now." So why do you have spoiler rules to begin with? At this point they are just rules for the sake of having rules. Policing those threads must be like trying to hold back a large wave that will eventually just splash by you.

Quote:
And as much as it may displease you, we are now in an era that source material are much easier to get, be it due to translations flying everywhere and the likes. And unless you want us to literally ban any source material reader in the anime thread (implying that we can discern EVERY members potentially in such category), your conception of anime only thread is beyond unfeasible.
Please. Manga sources have been translated and distributed before official anime airings for almost two decades now. Having another source of translation shouldn't change forum posting etiquette if it hasn't changed for this long. As Triple_R said, what has changed are expectations how people consume media franchises. But I thought giving source readers their own forums, anime comparison and Q&A threads addresses this. Apparently not, since anime-only viewers are still expected to go with the zeitgeist of current times. If source readers can get so many different threads for discussion, why not turn things on its head and give anime-only posters the discussion they deserve?

We all know that even if you guys bend over for this brave new world (that's apparently a majority now), for one reason or another source readers will want to discuss anime with anime-only viewers, either to have more people to converse with, "correct" us, or just be plain old assholes and spoil whatever they can. When anime-only viewers want to converse with source readers, we spoil ourselves on wikis or read the source or ask in Q&A threads and go have fun conversing with them. The source material guys are not being left out of anything. So if we have to play by their rules if we want to have a decent discussion with them, why can't the same be expected of them?

After reading this, I'm sure a suggestion such as a "for anime-only viewers" thread would seem like a brutally specific request. But please think, why do you think this? Why must anime threads be hubs for every other media in the franchise? Because they traditionally serve as informercials for other media? I was never a big fan of reading source materials (except a few VNs), and yes, I can understand the urges, but compare such threads to original anime threads, the difference in quality of discussion is huge. If you can consider this for just a second, then you will see value in such "ridiculous" propositions. You don't need to screen people whether they read the source material or not--you deal with offenders like you do now, when they break the rules--but simply leave out ambiguity such as spoiler tags being used for comparisons. That shit means nothing to viewers like myself, especially if I have other threads where I can inform myself if I want to. Leave their use only for speculation and posters who watch raw anime. My point is, right now anime threads are not designed for anime-only discussion. You can call them anime threads but they are really just a product of a bygone era when we didn't need such strong separation.
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Old 2014-04-21, 15:32   Link #13
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I disagree. The only reason you're seeing it as unimportant is because you already contextualized it, a luxury anime-only viewers don't have. If a show doesn't have an original work predating it, then naturally discussion participants claw at such information to make sense of them. Much like how it happened with Fractale where we analyzed each frame to get more information about how nanomachines work, for example. So, yes, I can classify it as minor if I have proper context (which I didn't). Maybe mods can take this into consideration and not treat us like we're nitpicking when submitting reports.
Except that, from my perspective, I couldn't contextualized it either, simply because I don't know what was the deal with the said term used there.
You seem to think I'm a LN reader despite I'm not (manga reader here, and solely few chapters ahead of the anime), and suffice to say, other completely anime only mods didn't feel either it needed action.

Call that laxism if you want, but there is a blatant difference between monitoring posts that disclose future events and the like, and a mere mistake stating a single word that has NO substance without any context.
If a mistake is noted, but no harm is done by such process, there is no need to intervene.
Quote:
My only expectation was for the thread not to develop a casual spoiler culture. In the opening post I mentioned JoJo's thread. What is unreasonable here is the expectation us anime-only watchers should "just deal with it" because "things are the way they are now." So why do you have spoiler rules to begin with? At this point they are just rules for the sake of having rules. Policing those threads must be like trying to hold back a large wave that will eventually just splash by you.
Jojo is probably an exception because most mod didn't follow the series, while basically no report was done towards it (due to a very high number of manga readers, and very few disatisfied anime only posters). Whereas the initial thread was definitely badly handled, it had arguably no intent to be the norm at all.
Quote:
If source readers can get so many different threads for discussion, why not turn things on its head and give anime-only posters the discussion they deserve?
Because it would be redundant to have 2 threads about the same thing: solely discussing about the anime. If original material readers keep comparing, they are asked to stick with the comparison thread created to that purpose.

Simply put, we do no wish to segregate the fandom.

Quote:
We all know that even if you guys bend over for this brave new world (that's apparently a majority now), for one reason or another source readers will want to discuss anime with anime-only viewers, either to have more people to converse with, "correct" us, or just be plain old assholes and spoil whatever they can. When anime-only viewers want to converse with source readers, we spoil ourselves on wikis or read the source or ask in Q&A threads and go have fun conversing with them. The source material guys are not being left out of anything. So if we have to play by their rules if we want to have a decent discussion with them, why can't the same be expected of them?
Except that by default, they are to play by "your" rules, except that we have set a compromise when it comes to comparison. I also disagree with your point with people who want to see comparison: comparisons properly done will prevent you to be spoiled, yet allow you to learn more about the original material. Asking anime only members to check the comparison thread is a glaring death flag, since it is a LN thread to begin with, so absolutely no restriction about spoiler is applied.
This compromise is done so people who are curious but still do not wish to be spoiled can learn more about the source material, while those who don't want to learn anything can just skip the spoiler tags altogether.
But besides comparisons enclosed within spoiler tags, nothing that wasn't transpired by the anime medium should be posted.

As already explained, you can't simply expect people to emulate a anime only perspective and be done with it. So unless you "exile" them, you aren't going anywhere.
Quote:
You don't need to screen people whether they read the source material or not--you deal with offenders when they break the rules--but simply leave out ambiguity such as spoiler tags being used for comparisons. That shit means nothing to viewers like myself, especially if I have other threads where I can inform myself if I want to. Leave their use only for speculation and posters who watch raw anime.
Your proposition doesn't provide any clear cut difference with the current situation, save the fact whether or not we allow comparisons with spoiler tags.

Think about it: if we forbid such kind of discussion, that means everyone will have to "play" the anime only perspective. Suffice to say, since "there are people who will be the assholes and pretend being anime viewers while they aren't" according to you, what does it change?
They will post their spoilers, they will be infracted, but the damage has been done. In a perfect world, we would need to literally monitor every members taking part of the anime only thread.

Meanwhile, those readers who genuinely want to share the experience with anime only viewers are the only one affected by such change.

So really, if you want to discuss with people who didn't read the original material, I don't think a public forum is a good idea to begin with, simply because the way how discussions go.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2014-04-21 at 15:43.
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Old 2014-04-21, 15:45   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Think about it: if we forbid such kind of discussion, that means everyone will have to "play" the anime only perspective. Suffice to say, since "there are people who will be the assholes and pretend being anime viewers while they aren't" according to you, what does it change?
They will post their spoilers, they will be infracted, but the damage has been done. In a perfect world, we would need to literally monitor every members taking part of the anime only thread.
Why do you still insert that I want to get rid of source readers? This is not about creating a perfect world, I'm talking about spoiler tag ambiguity (and of course a little more courtesy from source readers!). You seem to think I'm proposing grand changes but really they are just minor tweaks. Sorry to say, I have problems determining whether some information is going to be talked about in the anime or not. Actually, everyone does. This measure would reallocate such discussion to the realm of comparison and Q&A threads.[/QUOTE]
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Old 2014-04-21, 15:48   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Why do you still insert that I want to get rid of source readers? This is not about creating a perfect world, I'm talking about spoiler tag ambiguity (and of course a little more courtesy from source readers!). You seem to think I'm proposing grand changes but really they are just minor tweaks. Sorry to say, I have problems determining whether some information is going to be talked about in the anime or not. Actually, everyone does. This measure would reallocate such discussion to the realm of comparison and Q&A threads.
As I already stated: only comparisons are allowed, and with specific restrictions.
That means no "original material exclusive" information about future events should be visible to begin with. Ergo, you aren't supposed to click the spoiler tags if you aren't interested in the comparisons to begin with. But regardless if there is comparison in a given post or not, it still should be spoiler free, period.

Save these points, anime only people are supposed to have a spoiler free environment, which is however not perfect because some reactions are going to be "tainted" due to prior knowledge. Hence why I said that it would need an even more severe restriction for your stated objective.

Sorting out the comparisons that are already enclosed in spoiler tags do not change anything to the situation at hand. Far from it.
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Old 2014-04-21, 15:53   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
After reading this, I'm sure a suggestion such as a "for anime-only viewers" thread would seem like a brutally specific request. But please think, why do you think this? Why must anime threads be hubs for every other media in the franchise? Because they traditionally serve as informercials for other media? I was never a big fan of reading source materials (except a few VNs), and yes, I can understand the urges, but compare such threads to original anime threads, the difference in quality of discussion is huge. If you can consider this for just a second, then you will see value in such "ridiculous" propositions. You don't need to screen people whether they read the source material or not--you deal with offenders like you do now, when they break the rules--but simply leave out ambiguity such as spoiler tags being used for comparisons. That shit means nothing to viewers like myself, especially if I have other threads where I can inform myself if I want to. Leave their use only for speculation and posters who watch raw anime. My point is, right now anime threads are not designed for anime-only discussion. You can call them anime threads but they are really just a product of a bygone era when we didn't need such strong separation.
Either a) you're exaggerating the extent of the problem, or b) I've evolved my expectations enough over the years that I can only see this as you overstating the problem as we see it in the Mahouka anime thread. I mean, I was the "asshole" that was banning dozens of SAO novel readers back in the day to keep out all improper hints and comparisons, so I know exactly what it took to restore sanity there, given that I was an anime-only viewer myself. But what we're seeing in the Mahouka thread is not like SAO, because we've significantly stepped-up our enforcement in the thread already. This is why we created the source threads, and kicked out a lot of the comparisons and most of the hints. We knew this was coming and did everything we could to plan ahead and prepare. What's left is so mild that we have to have debates among the staff to make sure we don't wrongfully accuse someone (and in fact, in my eagerness to avoid seeing people spoiled, I have wrongfully accused some anime-only viewers, because they didn't make it clear that it was just speculation). At that level, we're so far further ahead than SAO. How much further do we have to go to try to do the right thing for as many people as possible?

Creating separate threads for anime-only viewers and trying to enforce discussion segregation may be the only way to please people who want to get an "entirely-pure" discussion environment. But, while you may say you don't need to screen people, it will require just as much if not more work to try to catch people who really have read the source and are being "posers". But even beyond that, you need to catch people who read Wikipedia, use Google, or live on other social networks or forums. I'll never forget how pissed off when I discovered that sites like ANN and Wikipedia will freely post major plot twists in the clear as part of a show's premise, even when the show itself is keeping it a secret, because they simply don't give a damn. So how do we ensure people haven't been exposed to some form of spoilers in order to participate in such a thread? Basically, I don't see how. You do it on the "honor system", and hope that people aren't lying to your face and pretending to be anime-only viewers when they're not.

But even setting that concern aside, the bigger question is: is this something that AnimeSuki should accommodate? Just because we could do a thing doesn't mean we should. It would make some people happy, but how much extra effort would be required? How much extra confusion would result from having double-threads for so many shows? How many new problems would result from segregating the discussion community for a show that much further? The other alternative is that people who want to create this sort of community with a different set of rules just go and create a separate forum that abides by these principles and takes an even harsher zero-tolerance policy regarding any sort of source information at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Why do you still insert that I want to get rid of source readers? This is not about creating a perfect world, I'm talking about spoiler tag ambiguity (and of course a little more courtesy from source readers!). You seem to think I'm proposing grand changes but really they are just minor tweaks. Sorry to say, I have problems determining whether some information is going to be talked about in the anime or not. Actually, everyone does. This measure would reallocate such discussion to the realm of comparison and Q&A threads.
My view is: so long as we're down to this level of ambiguity, and so long as it's clearly and properly tagged, then it's up to the anime-only viewer if they want to open the tag at all. We've done all in our power to reduce the risk. Now the reader has to decide.

As was said, understanding omitted information can be seen as a value add in some cases. Other people consider it a detriment. The whole point of this rule is to give the reader the choice about whether they want to risk reading this information or not, because there is always a chance that some of it may come up again later.

Forbidding all of this entirely and making people go to the source thread for any comparison is too draconian, given that most shows don't have a source sub-forum. It would also be difficult to have different rules for the Mahouka thread than all the other threads in the anime section, as it will only cause confusion.
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Old 2014-04-21, 16:34   Link #17
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You still haven't addressed the point I raised about the quality of discussion. Like I said, it's not just about major plot twists being spoiled. Many things can ruin the discussion. Fanboying/fangirling over characters that anime-only watchers have been barely introduced to, source readers unable to identify with anxious anime-only readers and vice versa because of familiarity with the material, seeing spoiler tags everywhere and knowing what you're trying to express will probably be a moot point for half of the thread, and so on. Anime-only viewers need to deal with these issues. Severity of it really depends on the title being discussed. While in SAO's case perhaps plot spoiling was more rampant, but Mahouka's thread is pretty much ruined by the above-mentioned things, at least for me.

I am not saying the suggested tweak in my previous post will solve this, absolutely not. It will solve the ambiguity issue, making anime threads a lil' bit more geared toward anime-only viewers. It would be ideal if we could get rid of things I described above, but what's particularly vexing is that titles with less rabid fanbases or anime originals don't have those issues. But I believe (and I suspect you guys do too), that much can be achieved with simple symbolic gestures. If you designate anime threads as "for anime-only perspective", a simple phrase like that can carry a lot of meaning and instruction for participants.

Other than that, I just don't see the point in anime threads shouldering the responsibility of comparison discussions, especially when there are threads specifically made for that purpose (when they exist).
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Old 2014-04-21, 20:05   Link #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
You still haven't addressed the point I raised about the quality of discussion. Like I said, it's not just about major plot twists being spoiled. Many things can ruin the discussion. Fanboying/fangirling over characters that anime-only watchers have been barely introduced to, source readers unable to identify with anxious anime-only readers and vice versa because of familiarity with the material, seeing spoiler tags everywhere and knowing what you're trying to express will probably be a moot point for half of the thread, and so on. Anime-only viewers need to deal with these issues. Severity of it really depends on the title being discussed. While in SAO's case perhaps plot spoiling was more rampant, but Mahouka's thread is pretty much ruined by the above-mentioned things, at least for me.
I'm sorry you feel that way. If your participation in that thread or on this forum at large is being ruined by the fact that you have to coexist in the same thread with source readers who are also watching the anime (and so bring that perspective to the discussion), we're not going to do anything right now to ease your "pain" beyond enforcing the rules. Spoiler tags are hardly "everywhere" (I remember very well when this was the case, which is what led to the current rules), and when they are present in anime threads, they must use clear labels that give you guidance as to whether you should open them or not. It means that there will be conversations others will have in the thread that you may want to avoid, and the tags give you that choice. We're not going to introduce a rule that anime threads have to be presented from an "anime-only perspective" at this time, as I think that is impossible to force on people (you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and there can be value in comparing and contrasting multiple points of view).

I want to say that we often get complaints from the other side of the issue, with source readers not at all comprehending why we don't allow spoilers to be posted under spoiler tags since "that's what they're for". So you may think that our policy is far too lenient towards source readers, but many other people think we're way too biased towards anime-only viewers and our rules "kill discussion" unnecessarily. It's also a large point of contention because our rules about spoilers are different and more strict than what many other anime discussion forums use.

We take all feedback into consideration, but I don't foresee any "quick fix" for this sort of concern at this time, and don't agree in pushing the changes requested.
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Old 2014-04-21, 20:09   Link #19
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Now, that's just nitpicking on what you don't like to see in a discussion thread, cyth. That's not very nice. As someone familiar to the shitposting on /a/, let me tell you an important thing when it comes to discussion: always know how and what to filter.

Look at what happened with the Index and Railgun forums when rabid spoilers come and ruin the day. Everything got scattered like splintered wood. You wouldn't like the fans of Mahouka to suffer a terrible fate like that, would you?
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Old 2014-04-23, 06:22   Link #20
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This is not meant to be criticism of the moderators, but the simple solution — for me, at least — is stop reading anime threads and subforums which I know to be popular.

Some members here are probably familiar with my very strong opinion that fans should learn to distinguish between the anime and the manga or light novel. Avoid treating them as the same story. Look at them instead as two different perspectives or interpretations of a single story, and judge them on their own merits.

That's how I approach the material, but I understand that most fans don't feel that way. I'm not going to waste my energy on such debates any more, so I simply choose to opt out.

I find that it keeps me a lot more sane.
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