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Old 2014-02-16, 14:36   Link #33941
theforgot3n1
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Oh it's no mystery anymore? Then: 100 men from Sumadera infiltrated the Rokkenjima estate and are the real culprits. All of them managed to flee without ever getting seen by the survivors. Since no one witnessed them and was able to say anything about them, they are not considered to be "existing", i.e. they are not humans. The goats represent them and the Witches are the leaders of the attackers... oh and Beatrice is Asumu that just faked her death and now after seeing that Rudolph got together with Kyrie, wants revenge and allied herself with Sumadera.

It's a tie


And if it IS a Mystery?

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!


My freak theory actually has clues! Because it already happened! See: When They Cry 1: Higurashi no naku koro ni.
It's a tie.

Which freak theory by the way?

Quote:
What a mad theory. PUNCHED OFF? You don't just PUNCH someone's jaw off. And if such ridiculous idea is true, do you really think she would survive it?

Knox Whatever : Let's not bullshit please.

Edit : I wish people stopped using the Red Truth and the Gold Truth on their ridiculous theories. It's contradicting the game and I gotta agree with Twilight, it does make one look like an idiot.
I know I know... I was just joking. I won't overuse the colors.
The madness of the theory reminds me of the one Battler used with exploding candies in ep 4. :P

She might be able to survive it though, haha, IF NANJO HELPED HER!

Sorry.

How does using the gold truth contradict the game though? Isn't it simply presenting an idea that is a possible interpretation of the work? Like with Dumbledore being gay.
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Old 2014-02-16, 14:43   Link #33942
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Gold Truth is a very vague thing, it's still debatable about what the meaning of it is.
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Old 2014-02-16, 15:06   Link #33943
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Gold Truth is a very vague thing, it's still debatable about what the meaning of it is.
I happen to concur with the theory Ryukishi stated at the end of the 8th Novel. The Gold Truth is a consensus reached by all those who "know" a certain truth. Battler's Gold Truth was effective, because when everyone discovers Kinzo's body, they'll concur to it. Even if it's physically possible to have a double of a guy with 6 toes. Said double would be incredibly rare, and highly unlikely to have Kinzo's exact physique.
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Old 2014-02-16, 15:13   Link #33944
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^ It's very subjective. Us, the readers, cannot possibly use it if that is the definition of Gold Truth. I claim I reached the truth, but how can I prove it? As long as I cannot do that, I will not be able to use this Gold Truth.

Furthermore, it's pretty much useless for a discussion such as this. We do not need Gold Truth to present theories or deny them. It's something exclusive to the characters.
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Old 2014-02-16, 17:17   Link #33945
ALPHA-Beatrice
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^ It's very subjective. Us, the readers, cannot possibly use it if that is the definition of Gold Truth. I claim I reached the truth, but how can I prove it? As long as I cannot do that, I will not be able to use this Gold Truth.

Furthermore, it's pretty much useless for a discussion such as this. We do not need Gold Truth to present theories or deny them. It's something exclusive to the characters.
Is your Seacat a way of creating a new Game based off the 8 Novels? If so, wouldn't that be similar to Battler's 6th game that he used to reveal the truth?
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Old 2014-02-16, 19:33   Link #33946
theforgot3n1
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Furthermore, it's pretty much useless for a discussion such as this. We do not need Gold Truth to present theories or deny them. It's something exclusive to the characters.
The meta world is interesting as well.

Quote:
I happen to concur with the theory Ryukishi stated at the end of the 8th Novel. The Gold Truth is a consensus reached by all those who "know" a certain truth. Battler's Gold Truth was effective, because when everyone discovers Kinzo's body, they'll concur to it. Even if it's physically possible to have a double of a guy with 6 toes. Said double would be incredibly rare, and highly unlikely to have Kinzo's exact physique.
Still kind of odd that witches would yield to such a unstable "truth". Dlanor could have kept arguing against Battler if that is definition of golden truth. And if they were fated to find Kinzo's body later anyway, and it was stated in red that he was dead, then he should have been required to use a red to make Dlanor give up that thread. It is, technically, possible for Kinzo to be alive...
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Old 2014-02-17, 01:23   Link #33947
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Is your Seacat a way of creating a new Game based off the 8 Novels? If so, wouldn't that be similar to Battler's 6th game that he used to reveal the truth?
No, my Seacat is just a parody project.
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Old 2014-02-17, 13:11   Link #33948
GreyZone
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Still kind of odd that witches would yield to such a unstable "truth". Dlanor could have kept arguing against Battler if that is definition of golden truth. And if they were fated to find Kinzo's body later anyway, and it was stated in red that he was dead, then he should have been required to use a red to make Dlanor give up that thread. It is, technically, possible for Kinzo to be alive...
Maybe because while it is not aligned with the Mystery definition of truth, it is probably something like an Axiom. So when the Detective claims something very unlikely (like moving far, far away from the realm of plausibility and just introducing something for the case of a Why-Dunnit for example), but still possible in the context of a Mystery and not going against Knox, it can still be denied by the characters. "No matter what you say, they won't believe it, because of all them think otherwise". I guess golden truth is one of the "Anti-Mystery" aspects of Umineko, which is why it is sometimes "weaker" (Maria's candy trick) and sometimes "stronger" (Kinzo having a body double having no reason than to make matters complicated) than red truth. Maybe we can consider it as a counter-balance against Knox/Mystery elements abuse. It's strenght probably comes from the "Why-Dunnit" aspect. Like I already mentioned, Kinzo having a body double seems completely pointless and there doesn't seem to be any logical reason behind that idea, aside from "Mystery rules".

i.e. golden truths can beat red truths without a "heart".

It is like the Mystery goats from EP8. They "stopped thinking" and reached a point, where their points started to become fantasy again.
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Old 2014-02-18, 05:43   Link #33949
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I guess golden truth is one of the "Anti-Mystery" aspects of Umineko, which is why it is sometimes "weaker" (Maria's candy trick) and sometimes "stronger" (Kinzo having a body double having no reason than to make matters complicated) than red truth.
Yes, it is kinda anti-mystery in the sense that I would call it, "the power of belief".
The stronger and unshakable your belief in something is, the stronger the Gold Truth gets, so strong that it can even beat the undeniable Red Truth. This is Kinzo's corpse is something that everybody believed, so much that there is no reason arguing around it, everybody at that point believed it was Kinzo's corpse and everybody else was just playing around with possibilities if it "maybe wasn't".
Maria's candy trick was easy to shake because there was so much evidence against it, on the other hand Ange's belief in her family being alive in "any form whatsoever and be it spirits in her heart" was so unshakable, probably even a death certificate wouldn't have broken it.

It' basically the sword of the Later Queen Problem. There is always doubt that the truth uttered at the end of the novel is incomplete, built from a perspective or downright falsely constructed from the very beginning. And in that little gap of doubt the Gold can shine.
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Old 2014-02-19, 08:43   Link #33950
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On that day... the Umineko community received a grim reminder... that we are caged in the retired section

Some threads are not locked yet though, so we can continue to discuss!
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Old 2014-02-19, 12:37   Link #33951
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This is so sad. If we are retired, do we even exist? Hey... who are you people, where is this place, who am I?
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Old 2014-02-19, 17:56   Link #33952
ALPHA-Beatrice
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On that day... the Umineko community received a grim reminder... that we are caged in the retired section

Some threads are not locked yet though, so we can continue to discuss!
Indeed, As long as Love exists, so will Umineko. The seagulls will cry once again.
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Old 2014-02-20, 03:26   Link #33953
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The MAD and images threads are locked.

At least a reasonable amount of the non-anime related threads are still open, but this is still rather concerning, especially if the site progresses to shut down further threads.

Are there any other Umineko forums that people hang out at? In case things were to all get shut down here, I'd like it if there was somewhere pre-determined that fans who post here could jump ship to.

Edit: There is /Seacats/, of course. When The Seacats Cry has surely taught us that properly! It's active and it's a nice place. But I don't think it would be a perfect substitute for the forums here. I find the image board style of discussion a little hard to read.

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2014-02-20 at 03:45.
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Old 2014-02-20, 14:18   Link #33954
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Unfortunately I think this is pretty much the only particularly active Umineko discussion forum that's still around, as far as I know? /seacats/ is there, of course, but most of their members aren't really interested in discussing Umineko itself any more. Tumblr seems to be the only place where there's still a lot of Umineko talk going on, but that's a completely different atmosphere to an organised forum like this.

It's sad, but it feels like Umineko's fanbase is slowly dying out; even this place hasn't seen much activity in the last little while. I shouldn't think that this forum will ever be completely shut down, though; it doesn't seem to have happened to any of the other forums that are in retirement.
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Old 2014-02-22, 23:09   Link #33955
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How much is there even left to say about Umineko at this point that isn't just a reiteration of past ideas?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed all the discussion here immensely, but this seemed kind of inevitable, don't you think?
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Old 2014-02-23, 06:03   Link #33956
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Yea, pretty much.

Personally, I blame Ryukishi for not having the balls to put a proper conclusion to all the plot-threads we set up. We can't even properly appreciate the themes, myth-arc of the characters, or otherwise analyze the novel in a satisfactory way because we can't get people to agree on basic fucking precepts.
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Old 2014-02-23, 06:58   Link #33957
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^ No truer words have been said on this sub-forum...

Sigh, Ryukishi...
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Old 2014-02-23, 07:26   Link #33958
Drifloon
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Well, I feel like the Stupid Goats readthrough has been doing a pretty good job of analysing the series in a comprehensive way that seems consistent with Ryukishi's intent. I'm not going to deny that Umineko could have been better executed in a lot of ways, but I don't think it's impossible to appreciate it for what it is.

I'm curious as to which particular basic precepts you're talking about though. At the very least it could prompt some interesting discussion.
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Old 2014-02-23, 07:59   Link #33959
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I think what Aura meant is that every individual has their own view on something and when they post their interpretation, instead of a discussion it turns into an argument, because...we just can't agree xD And that's the problem.
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Old 2014-02-23, 13:45   Link #33960
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Though I don't know if that is something that Ryukishi was ever in any duty to do.
There is a town of open-ended mystery novels in the world that are still being discussed...I don't know why that is a problem here
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