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Old 2014-02-04, 19:10   Link #601
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What fictional relationships do you think speak to people the most: Ones they can relate to, or ones they can't relate to?
Relating to characters isn't just about the constructs of their social status and the labels put (by an author) on their relationships with other people. You can also relate to the emotions they're going through by the way it's explained and developed in the story. The struggle with having feelings that other people/society thinks is wrong, and having to figure out whether to admit them or keep them to yourself is not so specific to only that particular sort of case. With the way it's usually developed in many of these stories, you should be able to see why they feel the way they do, even if you've never felt that way yourself. It's basically just having empathy for the characters in the story, even if you're not able to have sympathy for them due to never having gone through a similar thing.

Again, mostly, I think it's just a matter of setting aside preconceptions, and trying to relate to what the characters are feeling. The conflict between "what the world tells me is right" and "what I actually feel deep down" is often a central element of these stories in the first place.
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Old 2014-02-06, 15:01   Link #602
Nimandrous
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Because it would be easier to start a relationship with someone you know, than to go out and meet some random person as an otaku.

I think it has to do with the social makeup of japan atm. With the population decreasing because most women are focused on careers and the men are obsessed by 2D fantasy women.
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Old 2014-02-06, 17:00   Link #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This is an apparent dichotomy that a lot of people have a hard time bridging, because the blend of storytelling and sexual content is not as common as what you see in anime/eroge/etc. To some people, just having that sort of content in the work negates any redeeming qualities because it undermines the motivation for the story. But, that is actually part of the base concept that is being challenged.
It's certainly a sad state of affairs when we think of sexuality and good storytelling to be mutually exclusive (but violence is fine). Of course, complaining about incest in a story about incest seems somewhat nonsensical except to the periphery audience that caught something else and would rather the story contain only that, I actually believe every good story ends up catching such an audience to some degree.I'll try to make it clear on what I'm getting at below.
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Again, I would suggest that it's a matter of focus and whether you can let yourself slip into that universe with those characters. If you can only stand on the outside and look at it in the abstract, the dichotomies will pile up. But if you can allow yourself to accept the world being presented, there can often be more depth than it seems like on the outside. Fiction is often much more than the combination of tropes it employs, despite the culture of this community that sometimes seems to believe otherwise.
Ideally I agree with both parts of your reply. But there's a certain caveat I personally believe in and that is with all kinds of communication and relationship is a two way street. One imposing itself too strongly on the other side is just going to lead to failure. But of course, if neither side compromises, then we end up with a pretty biased view. Basically, while the reader should not aggressively impose certain things on a piece of work, the creator should not be surprised if he/she takes the audience for granted too much and causes the narrative to become ineffective.

I suppose when you send out a message no matter what, someone gets the point eventually. In essence, in some context, a message (the story) always becomes successful. A lot of people think a message that reaches a broader group is the more successful one, but that's certainly debatable-- there's certainly the strength of reception that matters as well. Whether it's good to reach out to a lot of people, or to reach out to some people in a stronger fashion being a better approach is certainly up for debate.
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Old 2014-02-06, 22:13   Link #604
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Ideally I agree with both parts of your reply. But there's a certain caveat I personally believe in and that is with all kinds of communication and relationship is a two way street. One imposing itself too strongly on the other side is just going to lead to failure. But of course, if neither side compromises, then we end up with a pretty biased view. Basically, while the reader should not aggressively impose certain things on a piece of work, the creator should not be surprised if he/she takes the audience for granted too much and causes the narrative to become ineffective.

I suppose when you send out a message no matter what, someone gets the point eventually. In essence, in some context, a message (the story) always becomes successful. A lot of people think a message that reaches a broader group is the more successful one, but that's certainly debatable-- there's certainly the strength of reception that matters as well. Whether it's good to reach out to a lot of people, or to reach out to some people in a stronger fashion being a better approach is certainly up for debate.
I think this is a good point. I personally am rather selfish in this regard, and have a strong preference for stories that resonate strongly with me regardless of whether they resonate with others. The fact that it resonated strongly with me -- or if not me, with someone -- is enough to recognize the value in the work. But, while I think it's beneficial to encourage people to try to be open-minded, to a certain extent people can't help their biases/perspectives that prevent a message from being communicated clearly to them.

This, incidentally, is why I encourage people to not remove themselves from the equation when discussing their experiences watching anime. When talking about anime, unless it's just a dry regurgitation of facts, you're always talking as much about yourself as you are about the show in question, whether you admit it or not. Sometimes the biggest "flaw" in a work may not be anything the writer did or didn't do properly, but rather an "it's not you, it's me" issue. These often get completely discounted in favour of placing the entire blame at the feet of the author, as if communicating to every single person from every culture and walk of life was their sworn responsibility as a communicator, and by not reaching to me, it proves they've failed their "mission". It seems to me that this is way too conceited and self-centered. What's more interesting, at least in my view, is in understanding why something doesn't work for you and what are the factors that influence it. If you understand that, you may have a better chance of finding other works that speak to you, and avoiding those that don't. Given that we're talking largely about entertainment, I think that's an important goal.

(So all this to say, if people already know that this theme doesn't work for them for whatever reason, it would absolutely make sense to avoid it, and that isn't a negative reflection on them or anyone else.)
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Old 2014-02-06, 23:44   Link #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
It's certainly a sad state of affairs when we think of sexuality and good storytelling to be mutually exclusive (but violence is fine).
I don't think of them as mutually exclusive at all. What I see is the inclusion of irrelevant sexual material purely as titillation to attract an audience. Inserting something like incest into a story where it is unnecessary is not good storytelling as much as good marketing.
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Old 2014-02-07, 02:52   Link #606
Marcus H.
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Was there any case where incest was unnecessary in a story?
And is Fushimi's latest work, Eromanga-Sensei, something that could have worked without incest?

Honestly, I find it disappointing when authors use incest in light novels as a gimmick.
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Old 2014-02-07, 09:21   Link #607
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Was there any case where incest was unnecessary in a story?
That certainly seems to be a widespread opinion among people posting in this thread. For instance,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Most of anime is a very poor (by choice, not by its inherent nature) medium for social commentary. There are very few shows which do it right. So, as Speedy said, most of incest in anime is for the kicks and nothing deeper - there are obviously exceptions.
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Old 2014-02-07, 10:32   Link #608
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Some animes do it right and others not. But, I don't find it interesting idea for story. I prefer stories involve friendship and a bit of - dark- drama.
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Old 2014-02-07, 14:10   Link #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Was there any case where incest was unnecessary in a story?
And is Fushimi's latest work, Eromanga-Sensei, something that could have worked without incest?

Honestly, I find it disappointing when authors use incest in light novels as a gimmick.
Well, I also think that people are using the term "incest" incredibly broadly. In anime-community-speak it seems to mean "any actual or implied romantic feelings between relatives, whether blood-related or not". Like, Eromanga-sensei has two people who become siblings through their parents' recent remarriage; asking if it's "something that could have worked without incest" is a pretty sweeping statement in its own way.
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Old 2014-02-07, 22:34   Link #610
Marcus H.
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It's unfair to put Eromanga-sensei in this discussion because we haven't got a good grasp of the plot. Compare that to Oreimo that we all know is an incest story, no implications.
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Old 2014-02-09, 22:28   Link #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
It's unfair to put Eromanga-sensei in this discussion because we haven't got a good grasp of the plot. Compare that to Oreimo that we all know is an incest story, no implications.
Well, that's sort of what I mean by broad, because...
Spoiler for OreImo s2/novel ending, plus comparison to Yosuga no Sora:

And, well, I thought you were the one bringing it up...
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Old 2014-02-13, 09:50   Link #612
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That's because people likes things that are forbidden and the thrill that those things imply, it just appeals them and since it involves sexuality it makes it go further.
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Old 2014-02-20, 23:11   Link #613
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Wow this discussion being going for ten years O_O. Well anyways I believe is mainly to keep family heritage. Not sure if anyone is a religious or darwinian, but how did you think they reproduce during the early stages. People just didn't pop out(at least in the three main religion) like I said again. I'm just stating my opinion no need to get all offended now.
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Old 2014-02-21, 01:12   Link #614
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My personal theory revolves around Japan being the mecca for childhood friend romance, combined with them not being icked about first cousin marriages. So as a writer, how do you do better than 'someone you've known all you're life' and 'someone related to you via your parent's siblings'? How about 'someone you've been with even before you can remember' and 'somone related to you via your parents'? In other words, your sibling.

(And in all honesty, the way the two are usually portrayed in anime are very similar. Greatest example of this is NakaImo, where the very question the series raises is, how do you differentiate between your childhood friend and your blood related sister apart from a DNA test?)

Well, that, and the fact that their most popular myths are laden with incest. With Izanagi/Izanami, Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi, and even the imperial Japanese family thought to be descended from good ol' Ammy herself... so in the realm of fiction, why not I guess? XD


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Wow this discussion being going for ten years O_O.
Tell me about it. I've got a post here that's like 8 years old lol. I mean, holy crap, what the heck was I watching all those years ago? XD
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Old 2014-03-27, 01:49   Link #615
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
My personal theory revolves around Japan being the mecca for childhood friend romance, combined with them not being icked about first cousin marriages. So as a writer, how do you do better than 'someone you've known all you're life' and 'someone related to you via your parent's siblings'? How about 'someone you've been with even before you can remember' and 'somone related to you via your parents'? In other words, your sibling.

(And in all honesty, the way the two are usually portrayed in anime are very similar. Greatest example of this is NakaImo, where the very question the series raises is, how do you differentiate between your childhood friend and your blood related sister apart from a DNA test?)

Well, that, and the fact that their most popular myths are laden with incest. With Izanagi/Izanami, Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi, and even the imperial Japanese family thought to be descended from good ol' Ammy herself... so in the realm of fiction, why not I guess? XD



Tell me about it. I've got a post here that's like 8 years old lol. I mean, holy crap, what the heck was I watching all those years ago? XD

I'm going with the same explanation. Generally speaking, Japan has a more romantic grasp of incestuous romances than most cultures. Their myths and histories are full of such couples, and some of the stories are pretty touching when viewed in the right perspective.
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Old 2014-03-27, 03:38   Link #616
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I disagree. There are a lot more cultures that involve incest. Greek myth, for example.
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Old 2014-03-27, 04:07   Link #617
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Yea, i't s a VERY common theme across lore in most cultures, though more taboo in some more than others. That's honestly pretty myopic and insulting to think this is specialized to Japan-- first cousin marriage is still a long ways apart from sibling romance. And it's largely a United States thing to prohibit it, because well... it's the US.

It would be like me saying the Southern part of the US is more open to incest.
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Old 2014-03-28, 05:21   Link #618
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Being it common isn't the same as making emphasis about it like anime does.
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Old 2014-04-27, 21:22   Link #619
Hazou
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See I am fine with cousins marrying each other, I understand from that perspective. And it seems less "dirty" I guess in my POV.

But what I cannot stand incest wise when it comes to family members is brother and sister or brother and brother. That just makes me uncomfortable.

I have a younger brother and there is nothing about him that makes me want to get with my brother. You're not suppose to love your brother, its not a cultural thing its a sibling thing. I am his guardian and his protector. I am there for him when he needs it, but I am not his lover nor interested in being his lover.

So those anime characters who love their siblings and have relationships with them are gross, imo. It makes me feel so uncomfortable, especially when my younger brother and I are watching anime that we watch thinking it will be normal and ends in incest.
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Old 2014-04-27, 21:27   Link #620
Marcus H.
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I feel that brother-sister love is a route authors make when they can't or are unable to develop a love story between strangers. The relationship between siblings can be more easily developed into romance because they have a "default value" of familiarity and love compared to two people that had just met. Add some values here and there and you get lovers!
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