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Old 2014-02-22, 23:22   Link #41
GreyZone
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As far as I can remember the last one who was a real match for Luffy and made him go to his limits without weird circumstances, plot armor, or some kind of trick, was Lucci. Luffy was clearly stronger than Moria, same with Caesar (which was assisted by Monet). Against Hody Luffy had too many disadvantages... on land he PWNED him easily, Hody could only fight back because of the water and Luffy having to fight in coating.
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Old 2014-02-23, 12:27   Link #42
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Luffy was clearly stronger than Moria
Highly debatable. In their first fight, Luffy couldn't do anything about Doppleman. And that was while Moria was sitting on his ass not giving a care in the world. Then Luffy got a ridiculous power up with 100 shadows injected into him (Nightmare Luffy), and that is what took down the Moria+Oars combo. Moments later, despite being badly injured, Moria still managed to withstand a 1000 shadow absorption. As much as he got a tremendous power boost from doing so, that ultimately acted to his detriment since he became such a big and bloated target. And it was the mast of the Thriller Bark ship that finally ended things when it fell on and crushed Moria.

Very much a circumstantial victory for Luffy.
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Old 2014-02-23, 12:33   Link #43
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Luffy should be significantly stronger than Moria now.
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Old 2014-02-23, 12:38   Link #44
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^ It depends on how Oda wants to portray the existing villains Luffy's encountered. For example, will Croc and Moria have gotten stronger over the time-skip? But yes, I agree with you. Even if they've gotten stronger, Luffy should have overtaken them by now. He'll always be ahead of them from now on.
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Old 2014-02-23, 14:46   Link #45
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well, afaik, Luffy did not even use Gear 2nd in his first fight with Moria. And Moria didn't seem to be able to get into the offense himself.
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Old 2014-02-23, 16:28   Link #46
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Highly debatable. In their first fight, Luffy couldn't do anything about Doppleman. And that was while Moria was sitting on his ass not giving a care in the world. Then Luffy got a ridiculous power up with 100 shadows injected into him (Nightmare Luffy), and that is what took down the Moria+Oars combo. Moments later, despite being badly injured, Moria still managed to withstand a 1000 shadow absorption. As much as he got a tremendous power boost from doing so, that ultimately acted to his detriment since he became such a big and bloated target. And it was the mast of the Thriller Bark ship that finally ended things when it fell on and crushed Moria.

Very much a circumstantial victory for Luffy.
You can say the same thing about Moria who happened to have a Giant he could control,also situational,just the same as Luffy getting his power-up.

But I do agree that despite Luffy not using gear 2nd,he couldn't even defeat a mere shadow,so if no one interfered I don't know who would have won.

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If you're talking about Luffy getting distracted/incapacitated mid-fight while the big bad gets away...... that's ALWAYS happened, even WELL before the skip. I mean, aside from Croc whom I've brought up before, it happened with Arlong (threw Luffy into the ocean while his feet were stuck in the ground), Eneru (stopped Luffy with ball of molten gold), and even CP9 whom you've just mentioned (remember Lucci tossing both Luffy and Zoro out of Iceberg's mansion at W7?). Considering how often it happened in the past, why would you complain about that now?
Yeah,I guess you're right even during the Moria arc it happened.
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Old 2014-02-23, 16:34   Link #47
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You can say the same thing about Moria who happened to have a Giant he could control,also situational,just the same as Luffy getting his power-up.
Not the same thing. Using zombies is an extension of Moria's power. Shadows have nothing to do with Luffy's own potential. See the difference?

Anyways, it doesn't matter at this point anymore, because Luffy has most certainly surpassed pre-skip Croc and Moria by a significant margin. Rest assured, the strawhats are no longer small fry in the grand scheme of things. They're rising up to the top very quickly. The fact that they've run into Doflamingo at this point suggests that.
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Old 2014-02-23, 17:09   Link #48
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Well I don't really want to compare what the power difference pre-timeskip of Moria and Luffy is. I was actually talking about how Luffy had no real "fight to the death" ever since Lucci. There weren't actually that many at all lately. Off my mind I'd say only his fights against Kuro (to a lesser extent though), Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile and Lucci would count as such very intense 1on1 fights, where Luffy really has to get past his limits.

So I wish for this arc to finally show such a fight again.
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Old 2014-02-23, 17:34   Link #49
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Not the same thing. Using zombies is an extension of Moria's power. Shadows have nothing to do with Luffy's own potential. See the difference?
While I do agree with you,having zombies is not part of his power,for example during the Marineford arc he didn't bring another OP zombie that could actually harm anyone,why ?Because he actually has to find a good zombie,and a good zombie as it turns out you don't find everyday,so he was in luck to have Oars or w/e giant zombie he had at that time was named.

There's probably a reason Flamingo was sent to kill him since apparently he was too weak for the Shichibukai title.

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Well I don't really want to compare what the power difference pre-timeskip of Moria and Luffy is. I was actually talking about how Luffy had no real "fight to the death" ever since Lucci. There weren't actually that many at all lately. Off my mind I'd say only his fights against Kuro (to a lesser extent though), Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile and Lucci would count as such very intense 1on1 fights, where Luffy really has to get past his limits.

So I wish for this arc to finally show such a fight again.
To be honest,I can't even say that the Croc fight was that exciting to me,while the final rage gatling gun was exciting to see,if Crocodile wasn't so lazy,Luffy would have probably been dead.
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Old 2014-02-23, 18:00   Link #50
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While I do agree with you,having zombies is not part of his power,for example during the Marineford arc he didn't bring another OP zombie that could actually harm anyone,why ?Because he actually has to find a good zombie,and a good zombie as it turns out you don't find everyday,so he was in luck to have Oars or w/e giant zombie he had at that time was named.

There's probably a reason Flamingo was sent to kill him since apparently he was too weak for the Shichibukai title.
Moria is at his best if he has prep time. Without it, he's definitely weaker (since he relies too much on his subordinates and has thus gotten rusty). Jinbe dealt with him quickly at Marineford, and that was after having been released from Impel Down with injuries and beatings he sustained.

The shichibukai need to maintain a formidable reputation. Members falling one after another is problematic, since that reduces their credibility and intimidation factor.

I'd like to see Kaido's reaction when he discovers Moria is still alive.
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Old 2014-02-23, 18:14   Link #51
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I'd like to see Kaido's reaction when he discovers Moria is still alive.
Same here
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Old 2014-02-24, 07:27   Link #52
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Highly debatable. In their first fight, Luffy couldn't do anything about Doppleman. And that was while Moria was sitting on his ass not giving a care in the world. Then Luffy got a ridiculous power up with 100 shadows injected into him (Nightmare Luffy), and that is what took down the Moria+Oars combo. Moments later, despite being badly injured, Moria still managed to withstand a 1000 shadow absorption. As much as he got a tremendous power boost from doing so, that ultimately acted to his detriment since he became such a big and bloated target. And it was the mast of the Thriller Bark ship that finally ended things when it fell on and crushed Moria.

Very much a circumstantial victory for Luffy.
Hmm I'd agree there is some room for debate but Luffy was not exactly going all out when fighting Moria initially. He didn't use his gears and was still able to hit Moria. Granted Moria could have used his ability to absorb shadows but even there, we at the very least know Luffy could take him out even in that form. So while I think it would be interesting to see how that fight would have gone down, it's far more probable that Luffy would have beat Moria.
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Old 2014-02-24, 08:48   Link #53
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Hmm I'd agree there is some room for debate but Luffy was not exactly going all out when fighting Moria initially. He didn't use his gears and was still able to hit Moria. Granted Moria could have used his ability to absorb shadows but even there, we at the very least know Luffy could take him out even in that form. So while I think it would be interesting to see how that fight would have gone down, it's far more probable that Luffy would have beat Moria.
Neither of them were going all out in their first fight. And you neglect to take into consideration that Shadows Asgard Moria was heavily wounded and struggling to maintain consciousness after the vicious beating he got from Nightmare Luffy (a power up that's not within Luffy's own capabilities). There's no convincing evidence to suggest Luffy's superiority over Moria during that time. We didn't see a fight finish to the end where both combatants weren't affected by external factors/circumstances.
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Old 2014-02-24, 09:01   Link #54
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Oh, how I'd love to join the Moria discussion..... but I'm not in the mood to tear out my hair over power level arguments at the moment.



Anyway, nearly forgot to bring this up, but the cover for volume 73 was revealed! Credit goes to Redon from AP for the pic:





^Now THAT'S an epic cover! The only thing I find disappointing is that Caesar is partially obscured by Dofla's leg..... oh well. Hopefully, the accompanying SBS will also prove to be more substantial than the usual heaps of dick jokes!
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Old 2014-02-24, 12:31   Link #55
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well after absorbing shadows luffy couldn't move and don't forget Luffy absorbed shadows in order to fight Oz. if he fought Moria with shadows, Moria would be smashed easily.
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Old 2014-02-24, 13:34   Link #56
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Just a quick question, because I'm interested in what people have to say: If Law hadn't saved Sanji from Doflamingo's point blank rope attack in chapter 724, do you think Sanji would have survived? A lot of people make it out as if it was certain death, but I don't know. He maybe could have armored up with armament Haki at the point of impact and absorb the bulk of the damage that way. It's also not far-fetched that he can somewhat use Tekkai at this point, since he's pretty much mastered Geppo. Another possibility would have been that he figured out strings were holding him, in which case he might have been able to burn them with his fire and dodge just in time. See, most people think Doflamingo was about to one-shot Sanji, but I'm not sure if he really was. I think Sanji would have been able to avoid the majority of the damage. He still would have been sent flying and ended up with a deep bleeding cut, but he'd still be standing.
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Old 2014-02-24, 14:14   Link #57
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The only reason I feel it would have been a one shot is because of his performance with Vergo. His leg was cracked and Vergo literally took Sanji on with his own legs. Sanji's specialty is cooking but his fighting style is his leg, that why he is called "Black leg". If Vergo did that to Sanji then one can imagine what Daflamingo(Captain of the Donquixote Pirates) could do to him. I personally think Franky will replace Sanji has the third trio if things keep heading the way they are. Franky is doing really well with all of his opponents (Baby 5, Buffalo, Senor Pink, Machvice, and Vice admiral Bastillie). Vice Admiral Bastillie is on ordinary Vice Admiral, he is a buster call one. If the results are in his favor after this factory fight his bounty will be the third highest then Luffy, finally Zoro's being the highest.
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Old 2014-02-24, 15:54   Link #58
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The only reason I feel it would have been a one shot is because of his performance with Vergo. His leg was cracked and Vergo literally took Sanji on with his own legs. Sanji's specialty is cooking but his fighting style is his leg, that why he is called "Black leg". If Vergo did that to Sanji then one can imagine what Daflamingo(Captain of the Donquixote Pirates) could do to him. I personally think Franky will replace Sanji has the third trio if things keep heading the way they are. Franky is doing really well with all of his opponents (Baby 5, Buffalo, Senor Pink, Machvice, and Vice admiral Bastillie). Vice Admiral Bastillie is on ordinary Vice Admiral, he is a buster call one. If the results are in his favor after this factory fight his bounty will be the third highest then Luffy, finally Zoro's being the highest.
You're bringing out the most arguable topic there is,you can't judge Sanji's performance just because he got cocky and underestimated his opponent,also Vergo might have used Haki at that moment which is why Sanji commented that "He's like an Iron Mass",in which case it should actually indicate that Sanji is tough as hell,because his bone only cracked to a haki infused kick,and Vergo is considered to have one of the strongest Haki.

Let's remember Zoro and Luffy's first encounter with Rob Lucci ?He kicked the crap out of both of them,in the end Luffy single handedly defeated him.

At this point it's only speculation,was he using haki at that moment ?Is he stronger than Sanji ?It's unclear and will remain unclear forever,one thing for sure,once we get to a serious battle,I'm sure Sanji will shine once again.

Like everyone else,he didn't have anything serious going on till now,and in the last arc his body got heavily damaged thanks to Nami.

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Just a quick question, because I'm interested in what people have to say: If Law hadn't saved Sanji from Doflamingo's point blank rope attack in chapter 724, do you think Sanji would have survived? A lot of people make it out as if it was certain death, but I don't know. He maybe could have armored up with armament Haki at the point of impact and absorb the bulk of the damage that way. It's also not far-fetched that he can somewhat use Tekkai at this point, since he's pretty much mastered Geppo. Another possibility would have been that he figured out strings were holding him, in which case he might have been able to burn them with his fire and dodge just in time. See, most people think Doflamingo was about to one-shot Sanji, but I'm not sure if he really was. I think Sanji would have been able to avoid the majority of the damage. He still would have been sent flying and ended up with a deep bleeding cut, but he'd still be standing.
Pretty sure it wouldn't be death,Sanji is a Haki user,we all know that,at that time Flamingo wasn't using haki as far as I remember,so Sanji could have probably blocked that attack or at least survived it.
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Old 2014-02-24, 16:13   Link #59
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You compare past and the present like they are the same. They aren't, also you can't ignore Sanji's performance. Second whats the point of showing Sanji's cracked leg to the reader if its just battle damage? Was Oda trying to prove a point? To me its no coincidence with Vergo and Daflamingo case that Sanji was shown to be weaker. Look at Franky he is undefeated right now. Zoro and Luffy also fall in that category(Undefeated). Why has Oda not shown their limits or them struggling? You can argue for Sanji all you want but Franky, Zoro, and Luffy have all shown progress. Zoro most of all. Third look at the story arcs before and after the timeskip. The archs after the time skip have gotten more complex and serious then normal arcs two years ago. This is more then just random adventure and the enemies they are fighting are the people we been hearing so much about two years ago but never seeing until sabaody and beyond.
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Old 2014-02-24, 16:26   Link #60
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The only reason I feel it would have been a one shot is because of his performance with Vergo. His leg was cracked and Vergo literally took Sanji on with his own legs. Sanji's specialty is cooking but his fighting style is his leg, that why he is called "Black leg". If Vergo did that to Sanji then one can imagine what Daflamingo(Captain of the Donquixote Pirates) could do to him. I personally think Franky will replace Sanji has the third trio if things keep heading the way they are. Franky is doing really well with all of his opponents (Baby 5, Buffalo, Senor Pink, Machvice, and Vice admiral Bastillie). Vice Admiral Bastillie is on ordinary Vice Admiral, he is a buster call one. If the results are in his favor after this factory fight his bounty will be the third highest then Luffy, finally Zoro's being the highest.
Zoro will have a higher bounty than Luffy? What makes you think that the marines think of him as a greater threat than Luffy? I don't see what he is able to do in the near future, that would overshadow Luffy's actions in EL, ID and MF.
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