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Old 2014-03-28, 10:27   Link #101
quagmire
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Originally Posted by Kagetsuchi View Post
I haven't posted for awhile i generally lurk because i haven't been really watching much anime because of life.

But my god you guys have no idea how disappointed i am with this ass pull, I'm done not even gonna finish the manga now kishmoto just threw logic out the window on this one i know its a shounen but seriously reincarnation ass pull is the most laziest way to write in a win.

I mean what about light and dark kurama put in naruto so he has full 8tails, and since kubuto just saved sasuke with hashirama cell he coulda been the best candidate for the rinnegan. But no we got your the reincarnation of the 2 original OP ninjas my god I'm so done with this now.

/rant
The reincarnation thing has been hinted at ever since Naruto took control of Kurama's chakra with Kurama noting that Naruto's nine tails cloak was similar to the SO6P before Naruto resealed him. Then hinted again when Kurama was now willing to fight along Naruto and he had that flash back to when he was baby Kurama.....
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Old 2014-03-28, 15:35   Link #102
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I think Kishi change his mind about Naruto ending soon, after this arc we can wait another couple more year having Naruto's brother as the main antagonist.
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Old 2014-03-28, 17:27   Link #103
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Things get changed all the time in this manga, I thought everyone has gotten use to it by now.

Remember ages ago, the Sharingan was suppose to be a mutated off-shot of the Byakugan, but you know it got retcon'd and all...
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Old 2014-03-28, 19:15   Link #104
solidguy
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I feel like all of this lore has come too late in the game....at least this all but cements a NaruSasu finale
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Old 2014-03-28, 23:25   Link #105
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
The sage already said that Naruto didn't inherit any talent and whatnot that he had to work hard to get to where he's at, the fact that he's the reincarnate of his son doesn't change that. He was still talentless and needed the drive and spirit to work harder than anyone to accomplish their goals.
Yeah, you don't honestly believe that at this point do you? I mean aside from him how well have the other "untalented" rookies fared who worked their asses off to get stronger? The answer is quite poorly. Choji is just now learning to stand on his own and gain some initiate but can't beat a mook to save his life. Tenten just sucks. Lee has made no progress AT ALL. Hinata has just learned to use the 32 fists, a skill her genius cousin mastered years before she did, and hasn't won a single battle in the entire series. Kiba hasn't gotten a shred stronger since part one. So compared to Naruto none of the untalented rookies have made any progress at all. So Naruto must have something that is working for him and its probably not hard work. He coincidentally is the reincarnation of the chosen child and has fantastic genetics. I mean if Kishi wanted to show that Naruto reached his goal through hard-work, he could have had Naruto come from ordinary parents and have nothing to do with the Senju and Ashura. He could have had the sage explain his back story and save Naruto's life without mentioning his two sons.
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Old 2014-03-29, 08:42   Link #106
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Originally Posted by Haloid View Post
Yeah, you don't honestly believe that at this point do you? I mean aside from him how well have the other "untalented" rookies fared who worked their asses off to get stronger? The answer is quite poorly. Choji is just now learning to stand on his own and gain some initiate but can't beat a mook to save his life. Tenten just sucks. Lee has made no progress AT ALL. Hinata has just learned to use the 32 fists, a skill her genius cousin mastered years before she did, and hasn't won a single battle in the entire series. Kiba hasn't gotten a shred stronger since part one. So compared to Naruto none of the untalented rookies have made any progress at all. So Naruto must have something that is working for him and its probably not hard work. He coincidentally is the reincarnation of the chosen child and has fantastic genetics. I mean if Kishi wanted to show that Naruto reached his goal through hard-work, he could have had Naruto come from ordinary parents and have nothing to do with the Senju and Ashura. He could have had the sage explain his back story and save Naruto's life without mentioning his two sons.
Aside from Hinata and Lee, none of the others are hard working, they are just normal, with no relevance whatsoever other than to exist. What do you mean Lee hasn't gotten stronger since part 1? Lee is one of the best examples of hard work being rewarded. Even though Hinata is still getting outpaced by geniuses, there is more to her growth than just physical strength, for her it was always a mental thing. But we all know Kishi hates females.

Naruto didn't became uber because of his lineage, he became uber because of lol Plot Armor. Name me one shonen fight manga where the main character doesn't become the best. Go ahead.
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Old 2014-03-29, 14:22   Link #107
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Naruto didn't became uber because of his lineage, he became uber because of lol Plot Armor. Name me one shonen fight manga where the main character doesn't become the best. Go ahead.
Yu Yu Hakusho - Yusuke Urameshi

"The fight between him and Yomi comes down to one punch. Rushing at each other, the fight would have been a tie, except that Yomi was able to continue standing because of an impromptu shout from Shura. Yusuke falls unconscious and doesn't awaken until after the tournament ends."

And this was basically the last BIG fight in the series. Yeah, hero didn't win.
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Old 2014-03-29, 18:32   Link #108
Haloid
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Originally Posted by Kagetsuchi View Post
I haven't posted for awhile i generally lurk because i haven't been really watching much anime because of life.

But my god you guys have no idea how disappointed i am with this ass pull, I'm done not even gonna finish the manga now kishmoto just threw logic out the window on this one i know its a shounen but seriously reincarnation ass pull is the most laziest way to write in a win.

I mean what about light and dark kurama put in naruto so he has full 8tails, and since kubuto just saved sasuke with hashirama cell he coulda been the best candidate for the rinnegan. But no we got your the reincarnation of the 2 original OP ninjas my god I'm so done with this now.

/rant
"Logic" and "story telling" have not been apart if Kishimoto's vocabulary for the past three years. I don't know what you were expecting?
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Old 2014-03-29, 18:42   Link #109
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Meh, it still better than part-Shinigami, part-Hollow, part-Quincy, part-Human, part-Newtype, part-Saiyan, part-Dragon Slayer, part-Esper, and part L-Cie Ichigo "Clusterf*ck" Kurosaki.
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Old 2014-03-29, 21:31   Link #110
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchan13 View Post
Yu Yu Hakusho - Yusuke Urameshi

"The fight between him and Yomi comes down to one punch. Rushing at each other, the fight would have been a tie, except that Yomi was able to continue standing because of an impromptu shout from Shura. Yusuke falls unconscious and doesn't awaken until after the tournament ends."

And this was basically the last BIG fight in the series. Yeah, hero didn't win.
You mean the fight that doesn't matter AT ALL? A fight that's basically just a fund raiser? yeah Big Fight that's only 2 pages long.
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Old 2014-03-29, 22:14   Link #111
Hunter
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The importance of the fight has nothing to do with ranchan13's point though. The fact remains that at the end of YuYu Hakusho there are still an handful of characters stronger than the hero.
But he could have told you Saint Seya, Houshin Engi, Devil & Devil, Scryed, Ashita no Joe, Dragonball, etc.

The heroes often end up the strongest in this kind of story but it's not always the case, sometimes they outsmart the enemy, sometimes they sacrifices themselves, sometimes they win through a team effort, more rarely they even lose.
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Old 2014-03-30, 02:17   Link #112
The Small One
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I don't think it's a problem, when the hero ends up beeing the strongest, as long as it's plausible.
The real problem is bad storytelling.
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Old 2014-03-30, 13:25   Link #113
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I don't think it's a problem, when the hero ends up beeing the strongest, as long as it's plausible.
The real problem is bad storytelling.
yea. i don't have an issue with anything other than all these revelations have happened during the same couple of days during this endless war arc. i would have much preferred to have the last 100+ chapters be spread among several arcs where the characters are doing completely different things and aging a little
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Old 2014-03-30, 16:10   Link #114
HayashiTakara
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The importance of the fight has nothing to do with ranchan13's point though. The fact remains that at the end of YuYu Hakusho there are still an handful of characters stronger than the hero.
But he could have told you Saint Seya, Houshin Engi, Devil & Devil, Scryed, Ashita no Joe, Dragonball, etc.

The heroes often end up the strongest in this kind of story but it's not always the case, sometimes they outsmart the enemy, sometimes they sacrifices themselves, sometimes they win through a team effort, more rarely they even lose.
Yeah it's true that there are rare exceptions, like Fairy Tail where it's always "Nakama power" deus ex that pulls them through the hardest situations.

But it doesn't Naruto is still effected by the common plot armor that most Shonen heroes wear.
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Old 2014-03-30, 16:41   Link #115
itachi-san314
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Yeah it's true that there are rare exceptions, like Fairy Tail where it's always "Nakama power" deus ex that pulls them through the hardest situations.

But it doesn't Naruto is still effected by the common plot armor that most Shonen heroes wear.
what you're talking about isn't a criticism of shounen or manga, it's a criticism of all literature and storytelling from the beginning of spoken word. the majority of all stories have the protagonist end on top or winning or coming through when it matters most, etc... of course there are exceptions as have been pointed out in this particular medium, but we should expect the hero to be or become the strongest person in a story. it would be silly to expect disappointment. that's not why most stories are written
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Old 2014-03-30, 19:18   Link #116
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Danger ; long post full of my random thoughts. Read at own risk;

- I remember a long time ago the topic of the sage's sons was introduced into the manga, and it became pretty clear that the senju clan and the uchiha clan represented the lineage of each son.
But at that point there was no indication that the senju son was a "loser". They both seemed like geniuses, one using ocular powers and the other using body power. It made sense in light of Hashirama's crazy chakra tehcniques and Naruto's natural endurance (even without kyuubi).

- But then later in the manga (when kyuubi bonds with the bijuu), the foreshadowing suggests strongly that Naruto is the reincarnation of the Sage himself. The bijuu did not say Naruto reminds them of the Sage's sons. They say he reminded them of the sage himself. So it seems a *little* bit random how the son's are the important issue now.


Also another thought;

Why is the sage appearing to Naruto now in visions? My guess is that when the reincarnation is close to death in a 'destiny' type fight, the sage appears and gives his peptalk.

That means that while naruto is getting this message, simultaneously Sasuke is also probably getting the same conversation. Future chapters will probably switch to show us Sasukes conversation with the sage.

This might also explain some mysteries about Madara and Hashirama.

1) It would explain where Madara got all this information about the chakra tree and the secret lore that no one else seems to know about.

2) It would explain Hashirama's *wierd* behaviour after his Madara fight. Where he is on the verge of death, but seems to be spacing out, looking at the sky. He might have been getting his So6p tutorial at that moment.

Yet another thought!

If the speculation above is true, it would mean that the sage's pep talk did not redeem Madara. All it did was provide him with useful information on how he could do more world dominationl things.

Is it possible that the S06p is neither good nor bad. Instead he is both. A kind of Ying and Yang where the two son's represent the two aspects of the Sage himself. If this is the case, then perhaps he did not try to dissuade Madara, but actually vindicated him in some sense. He loves both his sons equally, and both are part of him. So he did not interfere with their little war, and later on he does not take sides with the reincarnations.

So at this moment, perhaps Sasuke will not move closer to the light side after his conversation with the S06P. Instead he might actually end up reverting back to his natural alignment, and join up with Madara.

The most epic scenario would be ;

- Naruto gets his peptalk, gets his powerboost (Hopefully involving all the bijuu finally working inside him to create an interesting new jinchurikii that is different from the staff wielding Madara/obito)

- Sasuke gets his peptalk, and his own interesting powerboost, and wakes up deciding to join Madara.

- Gai's death-gate becomes more important that simply doing a "little damage" to Madara. Instead Gai backed up by the others, actually sets up Madara such that Gai is about to deliver a killing blow and Madara is helpless.

- They think they are about to win when suddenly sasuke pops out of nowhere and save's Madara in the knick of time.

- Somewhere along the line, Madara dies, and Naruto/Sasuke fight it out. True to Naruto's premonition (a foreshadowing that is too important to ignore), Both Naruto and Sasuke die in that fight.
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Old 2014-03-31, 00:38   Link #117
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster View Post
- I remember a long time ago the topic of the sage's sons was introduced into the manga, and it became pretty clear that the senju clan and the uchiha clan represented the lineage of each son.
But at that point there was no indication that the senju son was a "loser". They both seemed like geniuses, one using ocular powers and the other using body power. It made sense in light of Hashirama's crazy chakra tehcniques and Naruto's natural endurance (even without kyuubi).
it was a hand-me-down story told by obito. surely he didn't have all the facts and it's no surprise that indeed he didn't. also, naruto's natural endurance pales in comparison to hashirama's life-giving powers

Quote:
- But then later in the manga (when kyuubi bonds with the bijuu), the foreshadowing suggests strongly that Naruto is the reincarnation of the Sage himself. The bijuu did not say Naruto reminds them of the Sage's sons. They say he reminded them of the sage himself. So it seems a *little* bit random how the son's are the important issue now.
but the sage was reminded of himself in ashura (which is why he chose him as his successor), therefore reminding someone of the sage or ashura is essentially the same thing
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Old 2014-03-31, 10:43   Link #118
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To be honest I'm pretty curious about Hashirama as a whole. He seems like a special case to me, but why? Did he work hard? Was he really just a naturally talented kid who had everything going for him without having to work hard?

Madara is more easy to explain. He was pretty much top dog among the Uchiha along with his brother, and the rest of his power came from his brother's death and getting his eyes, and later stealing Hashirama's DNA.
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Old 2014-03-31, 12:59   Link #119
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To be honest I'm pretty curious about Hashirama as a whole. He seems like a special case to me, but why? Did he work hard? Was he really just a naturally talented kid who had everything going for him without having to work hard?
The whole thing is a bit messed up, as usual in this manga. The author tries to say that Ashura was not gifted, apparently meaning he was not very smart and also didn't inherit the bloodline abilities needed. But the reality is if he could fight on the same level as his brother then he had to have a strong bloodline heritage. The Sage tells Naruto that he didn't inherit any of his father's genius or his mother's advanced bloodline abilities, but despite that we see how Naruto is clearly not like the others. There's always this duality with the characters, Naruto who is apparently very dumb but in the most important fights he outsmarts his enemies, Sasuke who is supposed to be very smart but compared to Itachi's genius he's not that much, etc.
Even if i wouldn't put Hashirama in the Ashura -> Naruto lineage, but according to the above explanation it seems that i have to

Anyway, Ashura being helped by people is probably a very similar thing to Naruto being helped by people, as opposed to Sasuke's loneliness of the genius. Even if in the actual fight these people don't help him because they are too weak or are not there it still makes a huge difference for Naruto. Naruto was always helped by a few people around him: Iruka, Kakashi, Jiraiya, elder frog sages, Minato, Itachi, .... and the list goes on. Have they not helped him he would have died a hundred times already because he was stupid and weak. He makes friends easily and that's a huge help in his life, even if often not directly. There were many complaints that in the finale of this war the allied army was useless and they only caused trouble for Naruto, but actually that's not true, they helped Naruto a lot, even if some of them couldn't do anything else than telling him to not give up. Right now it's the Sage himself who is helping him, not to mention Tobito who is saving his life.
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Old 2014-04-01, 15:20   Link #120
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Madara is kind of boring me now, so I'm kind of hoping that instead of Madara launching the Infinite Illusion plan, he will loose control of the Jyuubi (being killed in the process), ending in Naruto and Sasuke needing to work together to complete the work of the Sage.
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