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Old 2014-04-01, 01:15   Link #1721
Monoriu
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Originally Posted by FierceAlchemist View Post
Watch the film again and pay attention to the spool of pink thread. It shows up several times throughout the film and is what becomes Homura's new soul gem. If you think about the myth surrounding the red string of fate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate) and what we know of Homura jumping through time, (bit.ly/1pH6n5k) it makes sense that her power comes from the same source as Madoka's: karmic destiny.

The string is pink because it represents Madoka, who benefitted from those leaps through time through her own power up. But Homura actually experienced them, she just didn't have the enormous potential building within her like Madoka because she already was a magical girl. It needed a change of form or transformation to unleash itself, much like how energy is released when a magical girl becomes a witch.

Thus when Homura awoke in the real world as something neither magical girl nor witch, she was able to access that power and spread her barrier over the universe. Consider that and the fact that emotions=power in Madoka Magica. If everything Homura's done, even her suffering, was all for the sake of love, then that's multiple timelines worth of power she can unleash.
I think this theory best explains how Homura did it. But I stick to my opinion that the narrative falls short of its own standards on this part.
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Old 2014-04-01, 11:06   Link #1722
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I always keep thinking the ending pretty much case of "careful what you wish for"

Pretty sure there is sizeable fan that wish the ending is where everyone is lives and have normal school life

We DID get that ending. Albeit is quite different than they hope for.

Honestly if you guys hoping happy end on next madoka series. There is chance that it go worse
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Old 2014-04-01, 11:19   Link #1723
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There's only two ways for the story to end. They either live happily ever after, or they don't. The other options have already been used. Where else do you go at this point?
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Old 2014-04-01, 13:46   Link #1724
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I just want Homura to die and be reunited with Madoka, and be happy. Jesus christ, that poor girl. She deserves peace.
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Old 2014-04-01, 14:07   Link #1725
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
There's only two ways for the story to end. They either live happily ever after, or they don't. The other options have already been used. Where else do you go at this point?
The principle players are Madoka, Homura, and Kyubey, as the three have opposing goals. Other players can be important, but only to the degree that they take sides (i.e. you could think of Sayaka as the Lancelot to Madoka's Arthur).

The game ends when two of the three principle players are defeated beyond the point of possible comeback. Which may have already happened, but some people are skeptical for both meta-reasons (SHAFT probably wants to get more out of this franchise) and in-canon reasons (Madokami briefly reasserting herself).

If SHAFT ever wants to clearly/definitively end the series, then it will almost certainly be with one of the three principle players winning.

The one truly "bad ending" would be Kyubey winning, since that would mean a reversion to the witch system and a victimized main cast (aside from Kyubey himself). However, that seems the least likely possibility right now.

So the four most likely possibilities are:

1) Homura, Pyrrhic victory (probably the current situation)
2) Madoka, Pyrrhic victory (arguably what you had after Episode 12)
3) Homura, Total victory
4) Madoka, Total victory

Given how Homura and Madoka feel about each other, Total Victory would mean getting your way while also placating your rival/friend and having a happy relationship with her. At least for Madoka (though possibly for Homura as well), it would also mean achieving a "Good End" for the rest of the main cast sans Kyubey (who we don't care much about since he's a villain ).

In many respects, the current situation isn't that bad. It may have some troubling implications, but it's pretty good for the main cast. Given that this is a Gen work, anyway.
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Old 2014-04-01, 14:33   Link #1726
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
There's only two ways for the story to end. They either live happily ever after, or they don't. The other options have already been used. Where else do you go at this point?
well the question is. which option is already been used?

is it good since "everyone live happily ever after"

or bad since it "artificial life"
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Old 2014-04-01, 14:52   Link #1727
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In many respects, the current situation isn't that bad. It may have some troubling implications, but it's pretty good for the main cast. Given that this is a Gen work, anyway.
We said that at the end of the tv series too. That didn't end up so well.

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well the question is. which option is already been used?

is it good since "everyone live happily ever after"

or bad since it "artificial life"
The problem is that Madoka's solution backfired. The Incubators figured out how to access the Law of Cycles, all they needed was time to figure everything else out and eventually control it/her. If it wasn't Homura, it would have been another Magical Girl they used to get to Madoka.

Homura's solution is also unsustainable. We've seen that she doesn't have an iron grip over Madoka (and possibly her own mind). And as long as the Incubators are still around, they're a threat. So there's a certain inevitability there.

In both choices, all they've bought is time. There's three possible endings:

1. All of the girls live happily ever after, Incubators are no longer a threat and the Magical Girl system is either gone or unable to ruin their lives.

2. The same as 1, except not every girl makes it to the end.

3. The Incubators get what they want, everyone dies.

So the question is, how long does Shaft want to milk this main story? There's probably enough for one more series or movie, but I think it would be smart if they concluded the main story at least and moved on.
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Old 2014-04-01, 15:26   Link #1728
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We said that at the end of the tv series too. That didn't end up so well.
While I'm pretty confident that this franchise will get a continuation, it's not 100% certain. In the unlikely but possible event that we don't get a narrative continuation (or we get some SoL thing or spin-off that doesn't really address the core narrative), how will you view this ending?

At some point, just for closure, I'll be going with "Well, I guess Homura won. The End."


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The problem is that Madoka's solution backfired.
Madoka's problem is that she was either unwilling (moral reasons) or unable (strict controls on how she interacts with the universe) to deal with the Incubators directly.

Homura may well be both more willing and more able. In fact, there's a scene of a trembling, wounded Kyubey at the very end of the Rebellion movie. It's kind of implied that Homura did that to him, probably to punish him and/or get revenge on him. If so, then it means she's both willing and able to keep the Incubators in check.


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So the question is, how long does Shaft want to milk this main story? There's probably enough for one more series or movie, but I think it would be smart if they concluded the main story at least and moved on.
I agree with you on how it would be best to resolve the main story in the next installment of it if they in fact have a next installment of it. Yes, they really are running out of different places to go. We've already seen "Madoka Pyrrhic Victory" and "Homura Pyrrhic Victory", and anything else should end things once and for all. Putting Madoka back in charge with another Pyrrhic Victory would just seem like spinning wheels at this point.
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Old 2014-04-01, 15:50   Link #1729
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
At some point, just for closure, I'll be going with "Well, I guess Homura won. The End."
Pretty much.

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Putting Madoka back in charge with another Pyrrhic Victory would just seem like spinning wheels at this point.
I agree. Personally I'm not a fan of the ending of this movie. The reason being that it concluded just fine after they rescued Homura. Give it an epilogue to wrap things up and it would have been a perfect movie trilogy.

The last bit really felt tacked on and unnecessary, and it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of explaining how it was even possible and why Homura would do such a thing. Top that off with zero confirmation of a follow up, except a "we'll see", and I came away from the movie very mixed. I loved the first half, but the second half felt tacked on, poorly explained, and unfinished.
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Old 2014-04-01, 16:26   Link #1730
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Man! Watching Rebellion in near-glorious 720p and official subs really does benefit the viewing! It just makes it that much more cohesive and engaging.

As an aside, it's long been my view that the two pre-eminent questions of our metaphysical preoccupations as humans are:
1) The moral question (WHY), and
2) The ontological/cosmological question (HOW)
...that also seems at play with people's reactions, questions, and interpretations regarding this movie!



So. Homura is a magical girl who despaired and became a witch who was then defeated and then remembered something and embraced despair to then transcended despair to become what she is now. Just sme random thoughts:

1) This transcendence grant her new powers to trap Ultimate Madoka
2) Some effect of Kyubey's (broken) isolation field caused a disturbance in Ultimate Madoka's power
3) In tandem with 1 and 2, Is it that big a thing to be able to subvert Ultimate Madoka's powers/authority? It's novel because no other magical girl had been pathologically driven by negative emotion (in a way that puts Batman to shame) to resist her before.

Perhaps our minds are too polluted by all this Christian thinking we're prone to and which the movie fosters. I mean, is Madoka really God? Really? I've always had issues with that. We know she's not omni-anything, not least since apparently even God isn't omni-anything but "maximally great" as some people like to point out. But are we obliged to think that Madoka is even that? Are we even obliged to think that Madoka herself authored the new universe that was recreated the first time rather than merely causing it to reset independently of her and then authoring only a certain aspect of it (Law of the Cycle)?

Also, was the rewriting (or perhaps I should say, re-configuring) of the universe something Akuma Homura willed directly, or was it a consequence of robbing Ultimate Madoka of her office? Only Homura enclosed it within her barrier to...affect it in certain ways?

Last edited by MYWA; 2014-04-01 at 16:44. Reason: It's a secret to everybody!
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Old 2014-04-01, 16:29   Link #1731
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I agree. Personally I'm not a fan of the ending of this movie. The reason being that it concluded just fine after they rescued Homura. Give it an epilogue to wrap things up and it would have been a perfect movie trilogy.
I agree. It would have been a great way to end the core story, and it would have made for a very Star Wars-esque movie trilogy, really.

What I think of the Rebellion movie many years down the line will depend on where the franchise goes with it. As a final ending, it's not as good as it could have been, I agree with you there. So for this Homukami/Homucifer bit to be worth it, it has to lead to a pretty good continuation, imo.
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Old 2014-04-01, 17:00   Link #1732
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There's only two ways for the story to end. They either live happily ever after, or they don't. The other options have already been used. Where else do you go at this point?
Madoka "won" in the TV series. Homura "won" in Rebellion Story. Each time, the other one is less than satisfied. My theory is that they will somehow find balance in the next story. Perhaps with Madoka taking care of the world, and Homura taking care of Madoka (and herself).

Quote:
I agree. Personally I'm not a fan of the ending of this movie. The reason being that it concluded just fine after they rescued Homura. Give it an epilogue to wrap things up and it would have been a perfect movie trilogy.

The last bit really felt tacked on and unnecessary, and it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of explaining how it was even possible and why Homura would do such a thing. Top that off with zero confirmation of a follow up, except a "we'll see", and I came away from the movie very mixed. I loved the first half, but the second half felt tacked on, poorly explained, and unfinished.
I feel differently. I love the ending. I think the ending is what makes this movie great. If the movie ended with Homura going to heaven with Madoka, I'd feel that this movie is merely good, not great. That Homura would do something is quite well-foreshadowed, in the flower fields scene and when Madoka and Homura shot arrows together. The real surprise to me is the extent of her power.

It would feel off to me if Homura just gives up at that point, after everything she went through. How can she give up, knowing that Madoka is suffering immensely by being away from her family and friends? She has been fighting for Madoka for so long, and that was her one and only chance to change Madoka's fate.

Last edited by Monoriu; 2014-04-01 at 17:12.
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Old 2014-04-01, 18:11   Link #1733
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I agree. It would have been a great way to end the core story, and it would have made for a very Star Wars-esque movie trilogy, really.

What I think of the Rebellion movie many years down the line will depend on where the franchise goes with it. As a final ending, it's not as good as it could have been, I agree with you there. So for this Homukami/Homucifer bit to be worth it, it has to lead to a pretty good continuation, imo.
I initially thought that ending it with Homura going to heaven would've been fine, but my friend made a good point: there's no change with that ending. Homura would've gone to heaven had Kyubey never made the isolation field. With that ending, this whole adventure in the soul gem world would have been an entertaining but ultimately meaningless endeavor. With the current ending, Homura is pushed to the brink and learns that Madoka may not be happy as the Law of Cycles or safe. There's actual change and character growth.

If you think about the TV show as a subversion of the magical girl genre, Rebellion is a subversion of Madoka Magica. It gives you what you want, but not at all in the way you expected it. If Magica Quartet really were in this just for the money, they wouldn't have done something so controversial and ambitious. One key element in most soulless money grabbing films is a lack of creativity and little risk taking. That's the exact opposite of Rebellion.
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Old 2014-04-01, 18:47   Link #1734
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Originally Posted by FierceAlchemist View Post
Watch the film again and pay attention to the spool of pink thread. It shows up several times throughout the film and is what becomes Homura's new soul gem. If you think about the myth surrounding the red string of fate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate) and what we know of Homura jumping through time, (bit.ly/1pH6n5k) it makes sense that her power comes from the same source as Madoka's: karmic destiny.

The string is pink because it represents Madoka, who benefitted from those leaps through time through her own power up. But Homura actually experienced them, she just didn't have the enormous potential building within her like Madoka because she already was a magical girl. It needed a change of form or transformation to unleash itself, much like how energy is released when a magical girl becomes a witch.

Thus when Homura awoke in the real world as something neither magical girl nor witch, she was able to access that power and spread her barrier over the universe. Consider that and the fact that emotions=power in Madoka Magica. If everything Homura's done, even her suffering, was all for the sake of love, then that's multiple timelines worth of power she can unleash.
Very interesting. Is it sad that I took all that and reduced it to "the way the rings worked in Sonic Crackers"? It's probably pretty sad.
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Old 2014-04-01, 20:35   Link #1735
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Originally Posted by Monoriu View Post
I feel differently. I love the ending. I think the ending is what makes this movie great. If the movie ended with Homura going to heaven with Madoka, I'd feel that this movie is merely good, not great.
I disagree. It would have been a great movie if the movie (and series) had ended that way. It would have involved a final struggle and victory against Kyubey, an intriguing Matrix-like plot with plenty of excellent highlight moments, and a nice, neat, happy ending for pretty much the entire main cast that I think just about all Madoka Magica fans would have been pleased by. What's not to like about all of this? Where is the supposed lack of greatness?

I'm not going to say that the Homukami twist was definitely the wrong move, because it may lead to a good narrative continuation that makes it all worth it, but I think that you and FierceAlchemist are really underestimating what a wonderful feel-good ending there could have been if Homura had simply been carried away by Madokami.


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That Homura would do something is quite well-foreshadowed, in the flower fields scene and when Madoka and Homura shot arrows together.
The flower fields scene could have simply had the dialogue changed. Change the dialogue just a bit, and nothing would seem strange about Homura just going along with Madokami.


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I initially thought that ending it with Homura going to heaven would've been fine, but my friend made a good point: there's no change with that ending.
I disagree. There would be a change. The change would be Homura truly accepting Madokami, and everything this entails, which is something that I think was a bit questionable given how Episode 12 played out.

Considering how Homura spent almost the entirety of the TV series wanting to protect Madoka from the Puella Magi world, I think that Homura truly accepting Madokami would represent a real watershed moment for her.
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Old 2014-04-01, 21:00   Link #1736
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I disagree. It would have been a great movie if the movie (and series) had ended that way. It would have involved a final struggle and victory against Kyubey, an intriguing Matrix-like plot with plenty of excellent highlight moments, and a nice, neat, happy ending for pretty much the entire main cast that I think just about all Madoka Magica fans would have been pleased by. What's not to like about all of this? Where is the supposed lack of greatness?

I'm not going to say that the Homukami twist was definitely the wrong move, because it may lead to a good narrative continuation that makes it all worth it, but I think that you and FierceAlchemist are really underestimating what a wonderful feel-good ending there could have been if Homura had simply been carried away by Madokami.
A lot of it is personal taste, so there really is nothing to debate. I like apples, you prefer oranges. My preference is definitely the Rebellion Story ending. Homura going along with Madoka to magical girl heaven would be a feel good ending, yes, but it would feel a bit bland.

It is a reasonable assumption that Madoka, being a teenage girl with a loving, caring family will miss her family. It is more believable if she really is torn by her duty to be Madokami and her desire to return to a normal human life. The story will be more interesting if this conflict within Madoka is explored, rather than having Madoka dismiss her human life and simply say "I can cope with my kami life". If Homura goes to heaven with Madoka, I don't see an easy way for them to return.

The current ending also fits Homura's personality better. Her defining trait is her determination. Her goal is Madoka's happiness. I don't want to see her give up on trying to give Madoka a normal life. I want to see her take extreme measures to try something, anything that may or may not work to fulfill her goal. And she did. I love it that she has achieved more or less the same kind of power as Madoka that will sort of make her the equal of Madoka. That plays to what I think is one of the central themes of the series, individual happiness vs happiness of all. I want to see her win for once. I also think what Homura did at the end fits her personality so well, i.e. the devil act and slasher smile, then cut to everybody alive and happy.

Madoka is great because it is willing to gamble and take risks. Homura agreeing to go to heaven without a fight is the opposite of that. I am glad that they didn't take the easy route.

Again, I understand that this is my preference. I can see why others prefer an alternative ending, and I don't have a problem with that.
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Old 2014-04-01, 21:43   Link #1737
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I disagree. There would be a change. The change would be Homura truly accepting Madokami, and everything this entails, which is something that I think was a bit questionable given how Episode 12 played out.

Considering how Homura spent almost the entirety of the TV series wanting to protect Madoka from the Puella Magi world, I think that Homura truly accepting Madokami would represent a real watershed moment for her.
I suppose it comes down to what you think is more in character for Homura: to accept Madokami's fate or to fight it. I go with the second option cause Homura has always been focused on saving Madoka no matter what and would view episode 12 as a at least partial failure on her part. And is she so wrong, to desire an ending where magical girls are saved and Madoka is alive.
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Old 2014-04-02, 01:43   Link #1738
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The problem is that Madoka's solution backfired. The Incubators figured out how to access the Law of Cycles, all they needed was time to figure everything else out and eventually control it/her. If it wasn't Homura, it would have been another Magical Girl they used to get to Madoka.
Well in fairness... Nothing about the TV-series really suggested this beyond a quick remark from Kyubey that "that witch-system sure sounds convenient." Now, I do think it's nice that they actually based the plot off this movie of a kinda-sorta loose end from the show, thus making it feel far less tacked on than I intially feared it would, but I still stand by that the TV-series ending left absolutely no need for a sequel. Yeah it makes sense that Kyubey would try to bring back the old system but at the same time, the ending to the show hardly left me all "Oh no Kyubey knows about the old system and says he would have liked that better! Homura what have you done?! What if Kyubey starts concocting some elaborate scheme to bring back the witches?!"

But yeah, as the situation was in this movie, it was certainly possible that the Incubators would just keep trying until they eventually did succeed in bringing back the witch-system. That's at least one thing that can be said for this ending; Kyubey now knows what an unfathomably terrible idea that is, and I dare say that even if Homura wasn't apparently subjecting him to constant torture, he still wouldn't try again now that he knows just how spectacularly his plans backfired the last time.
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Old 2014-04-02, 09:14   Link #1739
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I can't decide whether Homura rebelled against the cycle system out of selfish desire or an act of self sacrifice. On one hand she now possess the human portion of madoka in the mother of all labyrinths and at the same time fulfill her fundamental need to "save" madoka. On the other hand you could say homura sacrificed her last shred of humanity and forever bound to the role of "evil" so that madoka can be freed from interference from the QBs and the fate of being "god" so that she can enjoy life as a human once again.
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Old 2014-04-02, 10:21   Link #1740
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I can't decide whether Homura rebelled against the cycle system out of selfish desire or an act of self sacrifice. On one hand she now possess the human portion of madoka in the mother of all labyrinths and at the same time fulfill her fundamental need to "save" madoka. On the other hand you could say homura sacrificed her last shred of humanity and forever bound to the role of "evil" so that madoka can be freed from interference from the QBs and the fate of being "god" so that she can enjoy life as a human once again.
I don't think these two are mutually exclusive, and there is a bit of both in Homura's motivations. Homura does have Madoka's best interests at heart, and she wants to give Madoka a normal life. Even in the TV series there is an element of selfish desire on Homura's part. She wants to be with Madoka, and she wants to be the one who protects her. This need to be the protector cannot be fulfilled if Homura goes to Madoka's magical girl heaven - such would be a case of being protected by Madoka.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. It is normal human behaviour to fulfill one's own desires. Her desire to save Madoka can be interpreted as a noble one. Homura isn't, and does not claim to be, a saint. Madoka is much closer to that role.
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