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Old 2014-04-13, 21:59   Link #1901
Archaeon
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Just done watching Rebellion.Don't really like open ending but still like the movie overall. Are we getting sequel? Please do. Need more Kyoko.

Gotta love Mami and Charlotte.

Oh,and Kyuubey is now Homura b!tch. LOL!
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Old 2014-04-14, 06:00   Link #1902
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I'm sorry but homura has gone insane, sure she did the impossible and beat the laws of physics saving madoka and everyone else in the process, sure she dealt kyubei the hand he played with, but at what cost? she has essentially become a chaotic spirit.
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Old 2014-04-14, 09:04   Link #1903
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Originally Posted by Archaeon View Post
Just done watching Rebellion.Don't really like open ending but still like the movie overall. Are we getting sequel? Please do. Need more Kyoko.
from what I gather, one of the members of magica quartet, producer-san, wants to continue as a series of movies; another member shinbo-san wants to make a second tv season, the other members have not spoken except for urobuchi who wants out.

from what I gatehr basedon his other works, urobuchi is kinda overworked and it getting somewhat repetitive, so I think it's good he keeps away from madoka.
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Old 2014-04-14, 15:06   Link #1904
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from what I gather, one of the members of magica quartet, producer-san, wants to continue as a series of movies; another member shinbo-san wants to make a second tv season, the other members have not spoken except for urobuchi who wants out.

from what I gatehr basedon his other works, urobuchi is kinda overworked and it getting somewhat repetitive, so I think it's good he keeps away from madoka.
I don't know if Urobuchi is out then I think the series should stop here it just wouldn't be same without one of the corner stones that made Madoka possible in the first place.
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Old 2014-04-14, 19:35   Link #1905
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I don't know if Urobuchi is out then I think the series should stop here it just wouldn't be same without one of the corner stones that made Madoka possible in the first place.
I don't know. Urobuchi is one of the best anime writers out there, but he is not the only one capable of writing excellent anime stories. I don't mind Shaft bringing in new writers with fresh approaches to the story, and collaborate with Urobuchi to write the sequel.
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Old 2014-04-15, 12:47   Link #1906
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I don't know. Urobuchi is one of the best anime writers out there, but he is not the only one capable of writing excellent anime stories. I don't mind Shaft bringing in new writers with fresh approaches to the story, and collaborate with Urobuchi to write the sequel.
I agree. Even though I understand that it wouldn't be the same in some cases, I think it would be bad to just end the story right there. So I'm all for a new writer if Urobuchi is out. Who knows, it could be just as good as the original.

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Old 2014-04-17, 02:01   Link #1907
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+ you can find and listen Homura's first take on limited bluray edition. (original Homura's voice in last 20 minutes)
Received the movie yesterday, and am listening to that now... I will not deny, she sounds rather deranged in this version. However, I would not be so quick to draw any conclusions from this alternate take, for the simple reason that... they saw fit to redo it for the actual movie. If they wanted Homura to come off as having completely lost her marbles, they would have used the recording where it sounds like she has. But instead they re-recorded it to make her sound less emotional and more composed.
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Old 2014-04-24, 09:02   Link #1908
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I love the first take, especially that humming at the last scene, but I feel that Shinbou made the right choice to re-record the lines. It fits in with Homura's subdued nature better, I guess. Imo making her sound insane would too straightforward and pushing the whole 'devil role' thing a bit too far.
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Old 2014-05-03, 05:00   Link #1909
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I'm kind of torn on Madoka Magica continuing as either films or a series. I think Rebellion definitely needs a sequel of some sort, that's for sure, and I can understand Urobuchi wanting out, since he's kind of buried under work between Kamen Rider Gaim, his new mecha anime, and Psycho-Pass series 2.

But at the same time, I feel like while I loved Rebellion and thought it was a great film, it wasn't necessary. The series worked fine as a self-contained story.

I did like Rebellion a lot, though. The slow build of Homura realising she's in a witch's barrier, and then realising that she was the witch, was a masterpiece of both storytelling and artistic weirdness (everyone's faces vanished, guy. Their faces vanished and the landscapes stopped making sense oh god), and I'm always up for a Magica-styled Paradise Lost story.
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Old 2014-05-04, 15:40   Link #1910
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Well. I forget if I already commented on this movie, but I think I might've said something along the lines of: I can't really call what Homu did completely OOC. But it's still incredibly sad that she seems to have unlearned the things she seemed to have learned by the end of the TV series.

PMMM is in the end a show about balance and dichotomy, so I think it's quite fitting that Homura should end up becoming the Devil to Madoka's God. Again, it's the biggest tragedy of this tragic show that a world of selfless hope should be cancelled out by an ultimately selfless one, but...I think we know enough about Gen's nihilistic tendencies. And I seriously have to wonder if this direction was intended at least in part as a middle finger to the superfans who were clamoring for a sequel. (And of course, this time it was Shinbo acting as the guile-ly cynic, if he himself did come up with the idea of Madoka and Homura becoming enemies.)

A lot of you might hate me when I say the series should probably end here, despite the obvious sequel hook. The two stories form a complete, complementary dialog on possibly naive selflessness (as Godoka, Madoka would be unable to resist being controlled by the Incubators) versus experienced selfishness (Homura becoming the new Satan and brainwashing her would-be lover both out of a selfish crush and to keep the Incubators from manipulating her powers; one YouTuber compared her false world to Batman taking the blame for Harvey Dent). Both systems are ultimately well-meaning but somewhat flawed, and, well, look how many pages of debate it's generated here. Reminds me a bit of politics, heh. Should we open certain areas to oil drilling or invest more in wind and solar power? Should we tax the rich at a higher rate or set up a flat tax? (I'm not expecting any answers for these questions, because that would really derail this thread, but it brings me to my point.) If there really is a God, Shklee hasn't exactly provided any concrete "yes" or "no" answers to those questions. Likewise, though I personally thought Madoka's world was definitely the better one, I've seen some decent arguments over the past few months in favor of Homucifer. I think Gen and co. wanted us to walk away from "Rebellion" making these same debates, wondering about which is the better world.

PS: In one sense, I don't think Madoka's wish was entirely selfless. Remember all those times throughout the show where she said she thought she wasn't very smart or talented at anything? And how she seemed to think helping people as a magical girl would be the only thing to validate her? It says something rather sad about her that she still wanted to contract to save Sayaka in ep. 8, even after learning that she would essentially become a lich; Sayaka's happiness was more important than hers, at least at that moment. I think a few theories have been made that she feels insignificant compared to her successful mother and brash friend, and developed a bit of an inferiority complex.

Going back to "Rebellion", perhaps one explanation for her telling Homura that she'd never abandon her friends and family is similar to how a lot of people have feelings of worthlessness at times (myself included), but obviously they don't all commit suicide.
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Old 2014-05-04, 16:30   Link #1911
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Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post

PMMM is in the end a show about balance and dichotomy, so I think it's quite fitting that Homura should end up becoming the Devil to Madoka's God. Again, it's the biggest tragedy of this tragic show that a world of selfless hope should be cancelled out by an ultimately selfless one, but...I think we know enough about Gen's nihilistic tendencies. And I seriously have to wonder if this direction was intended at least in part as a middle finger to the superfans who were clamoring for a sequel. (And of course, this time it was Shinbo acting as the guile-ly cynic, if he himself did come up with the idea of Madoka and Homura becoming enemies.)
Honestly, I think you're off on the creative motivations behind this movie.

I forget whether it was Gen or Shinbo, but one of them basically stated that they thought that having a teenage girl like Madoka take on the responsibilities she did at the end of the TV series might be a bit much. And honestly, I get that.

In my view, that's probably the strongest philosophical argument (as opposed to a strictly pragmatic one) that can be made in favor of Homura's decision in this movie - That Madoka shouldn't have to make this sacrifice. That she shouldn't have to lose her humanity to save all Puella Magi. That she shouldn't be denied the simple, happy, fairly normal teenage life that she had. That she shouldn't have to lose her family. That a teenage girl shouldn't have to take up a responsibility this huge.

I myself was somewhat fond of this view, until I thought more on some of Sayaka's words to Homura near the end of this movie. What I take from those words is that Sayaka was sincerely happy and even a bit proud to be part of something greater. And it's not hard for me to think that the same was true of Madoka. That, while it wasn't a 100% happier situation (as there's no doubt Madoka hated essentially saying goodbye to her family), Madoka probably felt, on the whole, more fulfilled and happy as Madokami than she did as a human girl.


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A lot of you might hate me when I say the series should probably end here, despite the obvious sequel hook. The two stories form a complete, complementary dialog on possibly naive selflessness (as Godoka, Madoka would be unable to resist being controlled by the Incubators)
Honestly, this is a matter of pure speculation. Homura represented an unique opportunity for the Incubators, and they may never have received such a great opportunity again.

I definitely think there should be a continuation. Because I think there's great potential for further character development. And I think it's also possible to have a good resolution that honors and respects the sincere wills and goals of both Homura and Madoka, and not just one of them. The first resolution only respected Madoka's will and goal. The second resolution only respected Homura's will and goal. Perhaps a third and final resolution can respect them both. Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis. I think that could make for an excellent overarching narrative.


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Likewise, though I personally thought Madoka's world was definitely the better one, I've seen some decent arguments over the past few months in favor of Homucifer.
I think that Madoka's world is definitely the better one. I mean, Sayaka didn't seem pleased by the change. I doubt that Madoka was pleased (she briefly panicked when Homura started overwhelming her). Nagisa seemed fine either way. All the other characters were alive and well in both worlds. So who exactly is better off in Homura's world than in Madoka's world?

Then we have to factor in such things as the whole universe now being in a witch/demon's barrier. I certainly don't see how that can make things better. If anything, it makes things worse.


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PS: In one sense, I don't think Madoka's wish was entirely selfless. Remember all those times throughout the show where she said she thought she wasn't very smart or talented at anything? And how she seemed to think helping people as a magical girl would be the only thing to validate her? It says something rather sad about her that she still wanted to contract to save Sayaka in ep. 8, even after learning that she would essentially become a lich; Sayaka's happiness was more important than hers, at least at that moment.
I disagree. Sayaka was one of Madoka's closest friends, if not her best friend, at least at the time. And maybe Madoka just didn't care about being a lich. Not everybody would necessarily care about that sort of thing.


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Going back to "Rebellion", perhaps one explanation for her telling Homura that she'd never abandon her friends and family is similar to how a lot of people have feelings of worthlessness at times (myself included), but obviously they don't all commit suicide.
Madoka didn't commit suicide. She became something greater. Something that she was likely very happy and fulfilled being.
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Old 2014-05-04, 18:22   Link #1912
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Madoka didn't commit suicide. She became something greater. Something that she was likely very happy and fulfilled being.
Okay, poor choice of words there, heh (I was just being hypothetical). But it was still a sacrifice, and it just made me think of a dialog like this...

Person A: Some days I just don't feel like I have any talents, and I just don't have any purpose in society.
Person B: So would you rather be in permanent exile? (not "kill yourself")
Person A: N-no, of course not!


Of course, the scene in Rebellion where Madoka seems to have second thoughts about her decision kinda rubbed me the wrong way, since she didn't seem overtly hesitant about the outcome during the show. But now that I think about it, it would be normal for her to feel regret about losing her family and friends and still be satisfied with her new role.

But I do somewhat think she had a bit of an inferiority complex which made her think the only way she could feel validated was by signing up with Kyubey. So I'm not completely sure if her decision was made with the soundest mind itself. (Of course, after witnessing what she did, I wouldn't blame anyone for having a less than sound mind.)

I certainly believe Madoka's world was the better one (just noticed now that I wrote "thought" there), and Homura is actually getting dangerously close to the Moral Event Horizon by wiping people's minds on top of effectively imprisoning Madoka, plus we have some reason to believe that it's unsustainable in the end. No, I'm not part of the "Homura did nothing wrong" crowd, heh. I was just saying some of the pro-Homucifer arguments go well beyond "Incubators had it coming/Local girl SAVES everything" and maintain that Godoka was indeed in danger, canonically confirmed or not.

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The first resolution only respected Madoka's will and goal. The second resolution only respected Homura's will and goal. Perhaps a third and final resolution can respect them both. Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis. I think that could make for an excellent overarching narrative.
Yes, I think this is how the series should end, should they ultimately decide to continue it. But frankly, first I want to see something new from Gen and Shaft that impresses me as much as Madoka did. Psycho Pass was great for most of its run but ran out of steam a bit at the end, and unfortunately Gargantia seems more disappointing the more I think about it. Meanwhile Shinbo seems to be turning into the Japanese Tim Burton; his kooky artwork and camera angles impressed us the first few times, but it's getting rather repetitive now, and at times it's seeming to take precedence over the plot and writing. So... these days I don't think they're quite the creative gods that I used to. They need a few more warm-up acts before I can trust them with Madoka again.

All that aside, what do you think of this very lengthy essay attacking the movie? I was somewhat inspired to write my previous post after stumbling upon it, even if I thought Rebellion wasn't a "betrayal".
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Old 2014-05-05, 02:45   Link #1913
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^ I might want to quote a few things from the article to dissect it but my brain is tired now.
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Old 2014-05-05, 08:22   Link #1914
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I should admit that yes, my position in my screeds above is partly due to how I admit to being sort of a jellyfish at times; I often have trouble taking a position, and I can often understand both sides of controversial issues. For instance, I'm personally in favor of abortion, but I can obviously understand why many folks are opposed to it.
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Old 2014-05-05, 09:28   Link #1915
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Of course, the scene in Rebellion where Madoka seems to have second thoughts about her decision kinda rubbed me the wrong way, since she didn't seem overtly hesitant about the outcome during the show.
You're probably referring to the Flower Fields discussion between Madoka and Homura. It's important to remember here that the Madoka of this scene is lacking most of her memories.

As far as Madoka knows, she's a magical girl, fighting alongside 4 other magical girls in a magical girl group led by Mami Tomoe. She's doing this while enjoying normal human life, and a good family life. Everything seems fine to her. Why would she leave her family or friends? What possible reason could arise to justify that? She can't even conceive of magical girls needing saving, because by all accounts, her fellow magical girls and herself are no different than the PreCure variety. So without some obvious great need to address, Madoka will favor staying by her friends and family, just as a PreCure girl would.

Madoka never wanted to be Madokami out of sheer power-hunger, or even out of a desire for some sort of transhuman transcendence in and of itself. She did it to address what she considered a very pressing need - Saving magical girls. That was basically it. That was the whole reasons she became Madokami. Well, that, plus I do think she likes being a hero in general. But that hero desire alone would be quite adequately fulfilled just by being a normal magical girl, which she in fact seemingly was during the Flower Fields scene.

I think that the ultimate ideal scenario for Madoka may well be to be magical girl, protecting her city, having a nice family, having some friends, and living a mostly normal human life. Not God or man, but rather Superman. But that choice is the one that ultimately eludes her.

You know, if Homura had somehow reinstated Mami Tomoe's magical girl group (including Madoka) in the new Homura!World, I probably would have felt much more comfortable with the idea of this being the final ending. It would have been a lie, but a beautiful lie, to quote a character from Samurai Flamenco. And it would have been a lie based on a core emotional truth. That emotional truth is that Madoka isn't content to just be Clark Kent. I think that the TV series was very clear about Madoka's desire to be a hero, and sadly, that's been taken away from her.

What I see in the Rebellion ending is a person who dearly loves a wounded bird that they worked hard to protect from a harsh wild. And that bird, formerly an awesome phoenix that was the hope and inspiration of countless other birds, has now been caged. Caged in a nice pleasant home, but still caged. And that bird wants to soar high and free, even if there is danger waiting there. There's a very old story like this where the lover of the bird is told "If you truly love the bird, you will set it free". I hope somebody says that to Homura in a sequel, and that Homura heeds those words.


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Yes, I think this is how the series should end, should they ultimately decide to continue it. But frankly, first I want to see something new from Gen and Shaft that impresses me as much as Madoka did. Psycho Pass was great for most of its run but ran out of steam a bit at the end, and unfortunately Gargantia seems more disappointing the more I think about it.
Psycho-Pass is getting a sequel, just so you know.


Quote:
All that aside, what do you think of this very lengthy essay attacking the movie? I was somewhat inspired to write my previous post after stumbling upon it, even if I thought Rebellion wasn't a "betrayal".
It's a very well-written essay, and I certainly appreciate somebody putting that much time and thought into evaluating this movie. However, I disagree with him more than I agree with him. I intend to get into that at a later point. It will take a lot of writing.

I think that the Rebellion movie is fine as, say, Act 2 in a Three-Act play. As a permanent ending, it really does contradict the 1st Act to a dramatic degree, which honestly I do find pretty questionable at a writing and thematic level.

Absolutely wonderful movie at just a basic audio-visual level, though. And with an engaging plot with splendid characters. For those reasons alone, I'll always at least like Rebellion. But I would prefer an overacrching narrative, of which Rebellion is a middle part, with the overarching narrative having greater thematic consistency.
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Old 2014-05-05, 10:48   Link #1916
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actually, the way I see it, the big problem from homura's world is more on due to the imbalance. and by imbalance, it has too much goodness and barely any evil.
the right term I guess, is "its too good to be true".

when you get right down to it, what's the bad things in homura's world?
barely anything, heck even the curses are like being handled easily or at least not said as something of a problem by homura. or at the very least, she's basically bringing those wraiths to an end.
the girls essentially arent put in any fights or dangers as far as we can see, and they do enjoy daily life. perhaps even all the magical girls in homura's world may not even have become magical girls (like nagisa here) or if they did then they just died naturally like every human does (also means no witchifying).
kyubey is also being held down from messing around.

in particular, the problem is likely just entropy. homura pretty much created the "perfect" world, but the consequences is that there's little energy that's getting due to barely any despair.
or rather, the cycle of life is greatly skewed.

you know how like in real life, everyone lives and dies? well, what homura's done is basically close to letting everyone live on. its happy and all to be with your loved ones, but when you have to consider space available, expenses, supplies, population, etc. its sort of important that people die as well. its sad and all, but that's life, in order for happy things to keep happening.

and what homura's done is basically maintain all the happiness with no sadness that will balance it as well as cycle them. its like a big dam, where all of homura's "happiness" is pilling up and no "sadness" is flowing out. eventually though, the dam will break and all of those "happiness" will turn into "sadness"...
homura has already sort of confirmed that the wraiths is gonna end, rather than in madoka's world where its a natural phenomenon to balance the goodness.
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Old 2014-05-05, 15:53   Link #1917
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when you get right down to it, what's the bad things in homura's world?
barely anything, heck even the curses are like being handled easily or at least not said as something of a problem by homura. or at the very least, she's basically bringing those wraiths to an end.
We'd be able to answer this question if we had any worldbuilding details about Homura's universe, but we don't. She says she'll end wraiths and curses but she also says she'll destroy the world when she's done with that. And the former is clearly a lie.

And we have no idea what "ending curses" even entails. It could be horrible.

Quote:
the girls essentially arent put in any fights or dangers as far as we can see, and they do enjoy daily life. perhaps even all the magical girls in homura's world may not even have become magical girls (like nagisa here) or if they did then they just died naturally like every human does (also means no witchifying).
kyubey is also being held down from messing around.
Sayaka and the other girls have Soul Gem rings; they're still Magical Girls.
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Old 2014-05-05, 18:40   Link #1918
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well I just checked back again and I noted that while the others do have the rings, sayaka's the only one who had it focused for no reason...

though it could just be proof that she got instated in homura's world, it could also be some sort of hint that sayaka still has somethings she can do, perhaps she stored her memories there or something.


also yeah, I did state that ending the curses is probably going to result in something worse. im just saying for appearances sake, it's a "good" thing for the characters.
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Old 2014-05-05, 19:58   Link #1919
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Another reason I'm a bit skeptical at continuing the series is Urobuchi's planned departure. Say what you will about him, I would call him the keystone of the Magica Quartet at this moment, and to me his departure doesn't exactly bode well for the story. The main reason Gargantia was a relative failure was because he only wrote the first and last episodes rather than the whole story, resulting in its incoherence. (It wouldn't necessarily have had to be him as the main writer, but still only one person.)

Hopefully the postulated second season or fourth Madoka movie will have only one writer who can fill Gen's shoes well enough.
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Old 2014-05-06, 02:51   Link #1920
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perhaps in the future he will return, its doubtful they'll continue madoka magica anytime soon anyway.
I think majority of them even said in the interview that they might continue it, but not anywhere close to right now.
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