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View Poll Results: Fate/stay Night Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 53 34.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 55 35.95%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 33 21.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 6.54%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.65%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.65%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-03-26, 00:50   Link #81
kirjava
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Well this episode i gave an 8 out of 10. I mean the battle scene rocked between Saber and Rider. Seeing Sabers sword also rocked. Although i am a little curous as to why Berserker and that one girl were just standing around. But i geuss we'll find out in the next episode.
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Old 2006-03-26, 00:58   Link #82
Village Idiot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K
First fight that's lacked atmosphere as well... which is bad, since that's what F/SN has been doing best til now: the atmosphere in the fights. I guess a lot of what killed it were the things that are just so cliched in shounen action series fight scenes: yelling out attacks, charging up attacks, etc, etc..
Actually, the reason that Lancer, Rider, and now Saber all yelled out the names of their attacks is because it's the drawback of using Noble Phantasms; in order to be used, their names must be revealed; thus revealing their true identity.

Knowing the true identity of a Servant = knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses.
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Old 2006-03-26, 01:00   Link #83
Shikimori Kazuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot
Actually, the reason that Lancer, Rider, and now Saber all yelled out the names of their attacks is because it's the drawback of using Noble Phantasms; in order to be used, their names must be revealed; thus revealing their true identity.

Knowing the true identity of a Servant = knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses.
but is it possible that a servant/master doesnt know their strength/weakness even thought is revealed...for example-->Hercules? who the heck is he!!?!? i heard of it but hm..dont know his weakness >< darn. is it possible?
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Old 2006-03-26, 01:05   Link #84
Sorrow-K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot
Actually, the reason that Lancer, Rider, and now Saber all yelled out the names of their attacks is because it's the drawback of using Noble Phantasms; in order to be used, their names must be revealed; thus revealing their true identity.

Knowing the true identity of a Servant = knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses.
Still doesn't change the fact that it's a shounen action cliche.
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Old 2006-03-26, 01:18   Link #85
andiyar
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Eight out of ten. Technically, 7.5 but I've rounded up instead of down. Just.

Firstly - the actual episode's events are fun, and they had great potential. The ideas that went into this episode were good. The execution is lacking.

First half proceeds rather well, within the context of Fate's 'talky bits' as people are terming them. Quite enjoyed the discussions between Shirou & Saber (now and later) about his intentions in regards to others. Then the start of the 'adventure' of the day, namely, stalking Shinji & Rider. Most of said stalking is fine, it feels a bit jerky, but it works well enough - up until the park.

Seriously - up until the flashback discussion, this entire scene is shouting "look at me, pointless fanservice!" Sure, Shirou should rest a bit, that's fine. But we don't need the sexual comedy between him and Saber, now isn't the place or the time. And it shows, the rather smooth progression of the episode stalls. We fall back into the second Shirou Motivational Seminar, which works fine, its explaining a bit more. Then we go on to the second half of the episode.

The actual fight between Rider & Saber as they leap up the building is done well. The intercuts with Shirou catching the elevator, running up the stairs, the brief flash of Ilya & Berserker, these work well. But then, the scene on the rooftop between Rider and Saber, well... it looked pretty. Mostly. There seemed to be a lot of 'pointless swooping' going on with Rider and Pegasus, as well as rather contrived dialogue - I think some of the things that Saber was saying were more or less fine in content, but would have fitted better if they were presented as internal monologue.

Shirou bursting on the rooftop and Shinji's evil (though rather amusing) cackle were great. Saber then unlesashing Excalibur and Rider Bellerophon were... okay. The main problem I had with it was this: Rider forms Bellerophon, charges at Saber. We've seen Pegasus flying around, he's pretty spry for a five thousand year old (or so) flying... horse. Sort of horse anyway (despite dubious parentage ). Despite this, Saber spins her whirlwind, forms Excalibur... and then freezes in a rather (my apologies) silly looking pose, before shouting Ex..... Calibur! The pose? Should not have happened, or if it had to happen, less length, less silliness. The shout was way too drawn out - they way she shouts it is more like she is (rather slowly) shouting Ex Calibur (cut steel) than Excalibur as a drawn out word. It would have worked a lot better if she shouted Excalibur as one word when she was swinging the sword, and then the explosion took place, rather then paddng the word out. Pacing.

That was my dislike of this episode. Pacing. It wasn't sped up, it was slowed down (on the rooftop) and padded (the park bench). And I downrated this episode twice because of flawed pacing. The other half point was due to other things (some dialogue choices etc). Still, a fun episode - should have been a lot better paced though.

Oh, and for the people who are thinking that Rider might have been summoned away by Sakura, as we don't hear her dialogue... there's a teensy problem there. Namely, timing. Rider charges, Saber smacks her with Excalibur, huge explosion, Rider's mask shatters. It's more than twenty seconds later that Rin spins around and sees the pillar of light fading - so we're already twenty seconds after the death. Then, before we see Sakura mutter, it's another thirty seconds later, and the pillar is well and truly faded (no reflections of it in glass, Rin sees it fade and turns). So unless the writers are claiming that Rider takes a fair bit of time to die after being hit with Excalibur, or unless they are going to hint that these events were concurrent, despite being expressed chronologically, then Rider has been dead for a minute before Sakura says what I think is her farewell. Unless a command spell can undo time, then Rider must be dead.

And... good riddance, I personally feel. She didn't add much to the show other than being a flat antagonist (as was mentioned earlier). There wasn't anything presented to make us feel sympathetic to her character, apart from a very brief exchange with Shirou back in episode 8. To the plot and continuation of Fate, she isn't necessary.


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Old 2006-03-26, 01:58   Link #86
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This problem of this genre, when they tried to fit in eveything which takes hours in gameplay into standard 12 - 26 eps anime format. Something or someone bound to be left out.

The Fate anime so far did okay with some flaws here and there but so far acceptable.
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Old 2006-03-26, 02:50   Link #87
Sorrow-K
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Originally Posted by andiyar
And... good riddance, I personally feel. She didn't add much to the show other than being a flat antagonist (as was mentioned earlier). There wasn't anything presented to make us feel sympathetic to her character, apart from a very brief exchange with Shirou back in episode 8. To the plot and continuation of Fate, she isn't necessary.
For the most part, I agree with you... except here. To be momentarily cynical (lol) death in all literature is generally done as a cry for sympathy for a character, which is why it's best used when the audience actually cares about the dying character.
Spoiler:
she hadn't really given the audience a chance or reason to care for her
Spoiler:
so her death was merely a progression in the plot as opposed to any final development for a character. Which is why I think it was a crappy death scene, because there's no reason why they couldn't have explored her backstory and given the audience a reason to care that she died. Of course, the possibility exists that she isn't dead... Anyway, my point is that I think her character is an example of wasted potential.

Also, as far as the fight scene was concerned, I'm convinced that the problem wasn't pacing, but the fact that they used so many shounen action cliches. It just killed the atmosphere, IMO.
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Old 2006-03-26, 04:55   Link #88
Seska
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Mmm, i get the feeling. That the most of here compare "Fate stay Night" anime to mutch with the Game. Perhaps i stand better then the others her, cause i never played that game. And cause of that i can enjoy more of the anime. Curious follwing the ANIMEStory line.

Its like MH and MO

In the beginning, i bet they compare MO over MH. But with the story goes on. They lost to do it.

Well, for my part. Im happy that i dont know the game+story. I enjoy the complet new storyline (but with the same chars) of the anime. Its like compare Water (Game) with Fire (anime)

If you want to post again between things from game and anime. Think please about it.

Mfg,
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Old 2006-03-26, 05:35   Link #89
Sorrow-K
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I haven't played the game, but I can recognize a flawed anime when I see one.
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Old 2006-03-26, 06:23   Link #90
Suiton
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The producers only want to make an anime popular. They don't really care about plot cliche. What's wrong with action cliche in the first place when it is considered good enough entertainment.
If you don't enjoy the anime then don't watch it. Or if you do, then...don't make life difficult for yourself by finding reasons to dislike it.

Back on topic, this is my favourite episode thus far. The Holy Grail War wouldn't be a war with just episodes of talking. +10 for Excalibur.
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Old 2006-03-26, 07:15   Link #91
kamikazex
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Originally Posted by demon_god04
A season for each of the scenarios! lol even though the chances of that happening is probly like winning the lottery -.-
im with you man
haha
a season for each scenario
come on now we have a 2 out of 100000000000000000000000000 chance
but its still possible
have faith!!
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Old 2006-03-26, 07:22   Link #92
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by andiyar
Oh, and for the people who are thinking that Rider might have been summoned away by Sakura, as we don't hear her dialogue... there's a teensy problem there. Namely, timing. Rider charges, Saber smacks her with Excalibur, huge explosion, Rider's mask shatters. It's more than twenty seconds later that Rin spins around and sees the pillar of light fading - so we're already twenty seconds after the death. Then, before we see Sakura mutter, it's another thirty seconds later, and the pillar is well and truly faded (no reflections of it in glass, Rin sees it fade and turns).
I'm not saying Rider is alive, but did you see her body explode? I know i didn't..
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Old 2006-03-26, 07:30   Link #93
andiyar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K
For the most part, I agree with you... except here. To be momentarily cynical (lol) death in all literature is generally done as a cry for sympathy for a character, which is why it's best used when the audience actually cares about the dying character. In Rider's case,she hadn't really given the audience a chance or reason to care for her, otther than that ass... oh my...so her death was merely a progression in the plot as opposed to any final development for a character. Which is why I think it was a crappy death scene, because there's no reason why they couldn't have explored her backstory and given the audience a reason to care that she died. Of course, the possibility exists that she isn't dead... Anyway, my point is that I think her character is an example of wasted potential.

Which is largely why I am glad that Rider is gone. From the start, I haven't considered her a very interesting character at all - I've been enjoying the Rider scenes mostly because of Shinji. He's just so much fun to watch, and I can just imagine how much fun his character is to write as well (note to self: write something with a Shinji-esque character. Soon.). Rider is in the anime solely for the fanservice (which, in her case, has been over the top. I've come cloes to cringing in some of her scenes), and to give us a vehicle to explore Saber's relative power - Rin and Saber tell us how powerful Rider must be, due to her Noble Phantasm, and then despite this Saber quite efficiently disposes of her. Rider's death isn't show here as a character development for Rider (as she has little character to speak of) but rather as character development for Saber.

This however could have been achieved with a more 3D character than Rider was. There were hints of Rider's character in episode 8, where she talked to Shirou as she escorted him to the gate, but the only other development of hers was that of a rather bloodthirsty maniac (fights with Caster; Saber; Saber) who cared only for killing. And in that sense, she's very disposable.

To address another point, that of death in literature (sorry for this out of order response!), I'd be forced to disagree with you here. Death of a character isn't necessarily designed to create sympathy for a character. Death can result for a number of reasons, sympathising with a character is but one of them. Death can be trivial or important in writing, it can be random or necessary. For some 'useless' deaths in what would be considered to be literature - have a read of Madame Bovary, by Gustave Flaubert. Tell me, at the end, if you've actually had a sympathetic response for the characters who have died or not - if you have (for all of them) it'll be somewhat surprising.

Basically, death of a character isn't always an important thing - Rider's death is a case in point. It could have been done better, but it wasn't, as it wasn't considered important - it seems more of a 'tick the box in the game event list' occurrence. And since every one of Rider's scenes felt this way, her death is inconsequential. Much like the rest of her appearances in the anime, in a character sense at least.

Quote:
Also, as far as the fight scene was concerned, I'm convinced that the problem wasn't pacing, but the fact that they used so many shounen action cliches. It just killed the atmosphere, IMO.

Being as I'm neither a watcher nor an admirer of shounen action anime, I can't really comment here. But my references to pacing are due largely to timing (which might be what you'd refer to as a shounen action cliché.) I am aware of what might be a cliché (through a younger sibling's former fascination with DBZ) of the 'silly talking whilst fighting' scenes, but my gripes come with a few of the shots used. Watch the fight scene with Rider and Saber again. When they are fighting up the building, the actual pace feels correct. It's great. Now, flash forward to when Rider 'summons' Bellerophon. She then (from, oh, about a klick away) does her headlong dive towards Saber. Based at the speed at which she is moving, she should get there in less than ten seconds. What does Saber do?

Charges her sword, (Rider screams "Bellerophon"), speaks of how she agrees for about ten seconds (Rider looks about 500m metres away from a sight estimate) forms Excalibur, poses with it whilst Shirou wonders, "a golden sword?" (timed at fifteen seconds between formation and then usage) then slices the air and hits Rider and Pegasus (who still haven't covered that last 200m). So, Rider and Bellerophon were either charging really slowly (perhaps they were simply letting gravity do all the work!), or the Powers That Be™ decided that they should be as dramatic as possible - by drawing out something that should have taken about twenty seconds of real time (judging by Rider's speed) to over a minute and a half. That is what I meant by a pacing/timing problem. Events are poorly timed. That's not the only one

And on another note, just re: Riders' possible continued existence, after we see Excalibur from a distance (and still a good 30 seconds before Sakura chants/speaks) we see a wide shot from Rin's perspective of the scene - Pegasus and Rider have vanished from the sky, there's no 'white light' or beam anywhere around - so she's either disappeared or died. And since for her to disappear in time would require a command spell (opinion here), and since Shinji doesn't use one (book burns), and Sakura couldn't be using one on screen for a good half a minute... Sorry people, but I don't see a viable Rider Resurrection happening, unless they just want to mess with continuity. Which would be bad. Bad direction, bad production, bad writing. And that isn't acceptable. ^_^

Edited to include:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelsama
I'm not saying Rider is alive, but did you see her body explode? I know i didn't..
Not her body per se, no. Rewatching the scene, however, there is an explosion midair at the intersection point between Rider and Excalibur's beam, her light is no longer extant a moment later (see above), her mask does shatter, and the fact that Sakura isn't talking until a good seventy seconds later does seem rather irreconcileable - unless they're planning to say "surprise!" later - which, as I stated before, is bad writing... cheap and cheating, I would also say


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Last edited by andiyar; 2006-03-26 at 07:49.
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Old 2006-03-26, 07:51   Link #94
Shiroth
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Just 'cause Sakura said something '30 second's later' doesn't mean much really, She could have easily said "fare well" to Rider, and we could still see Rider return later on.

And Rider could easily vanish by herself you know while being attacked, Yes we see her mask shatter.. but nothing else, and that doesn't mean we need Sakura to say something so Rider is still alive.

I'm not one that one's her alive or dead, but when she can do more for the story, then i think she's better of alive.

This what i believe, Rin looks up at Sakura knowing that she must be worried for Rider, Sakura looks up ater the explosion, and the look on her face just tells you that she's upset for whats happened, and says fare well to Rider. But still Rider could be alive.. i'm not saying thats how it should be, but we just never know.
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Old 2006-03-26, 08:05   Link #95
andiyar
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But in a writing sense, bringing Rider back from the dead would be cheapening to Saber (I think this has been mentioned before). From what I've seen, Rider's major role in the anime so far has been to build up to this fight on top of a skyscraper - where we see how poweful, and yet how weak, Saber is. (It's a lovely build of contrast, really, that has some beautiful future character tie ins. But back on topic!).

Since Rider's almost sole purpose has been to illustrate Saber's character and her strength, bringing her back immediately detracts from that strength. We would suddenly realise that Saber isn't as powerful after all - in effect, the anime has lied to us. This breaks the faith of the viewer, and results in it becoming much more difficult to both suspend disbelief in the face of the impossible, and also to trust any event that happens in the show whatsoever - this kind of alteration can break a show completely, as they viewer is no longer able to simply enjoy the show on its merits, they have to continually second guess every major event - because they don't know if they are being lied to again. (On a side note, when characters lie to other characters, that's fine, as it's a character to character thing - as long as it fits the relevant characters. But when the actual directors/writers lie directly to the audience, it is no longer fine. To clarify )

Basically, I believe what you do - that Rin is there out of concern for Sakura (HF), Sakura says farewell to Rider. But I am also certain that Rider is dead. And for the anime's sake, and for its credibility's sake, I hope she will remain so.


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Old 2006-03-26, 08:35   Link #96
kamikazex
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fav epsode no complaints at all
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Old 2006-03-26, 08:55   Link #97
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I finally saw the subbed episode. It was really good but it was sad to see Rider being defeated. To those who wonder why we did not see the body of Rider, it's because when a servant dies their bodies vanish into thin air. There is a small chance that Rider is alive but she is probably gone. Maybe the next episode can explain a few things, such as why did Shinji have a spell book and not a mark on his hand? Was it the book that was binding Rider to be his servant? Why was Rin visiting Sakura? Sakura definately has some sort of connection to Rider in the anime.

If Rider is truly dead then I feel that she was wasted. It feels she was simply dumped to speed up the story and move it forward, that her only part in the anime was to make Saber look cool. I thought she was going to have a bigger part in the story, after the few scenes she had with Shirou.

I noticed that Rider's personality seemed to have changed in the episode. She used to be more calmer, more quiet, more peaceful. In episode 12 she was much more serious, talkative and even a bit sadistic. She even taunted Saber a lot. Even her way of speaking was changed.
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Old 2006-03-26, 11:08   Link #98
hailstorm
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GG Rider. I'll miss your hair, your curves and your sexiness. Too bad you had a shitty master. It's definitely unworthy to sacrifice yourself for Shinji.

Servants do not die as humans... they de-Materialise (to borrow loosely from Mai Otome), and they will re-appear at the next Grail War.

I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but the game had many endings. Quite a number had Rider surviving. Which story path will FSN anime stick to? Will there be added anime-only elements in later episodes? (eg. Shuffle's 'Kaede surprise'). Time will tell.
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Old 2006-03-26, 11:19   Link #99
kirjava
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelsama
I'm not saying Rider is alive, but did you see her body explode? I know i didn't..
As to what Angelsama said. She could be dead or she couldnt but nothing linked that when a servant dies they explode. They are spirits afterall they would just go back to where they were previously.
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Old 2006-03-26, 11:38   Link #100
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by kirjava
As to what Angelsama said. She could be dead or she couldnt but nothing linked that when a servant dies they explode. They are spirits afterall they would just go back to where they were previously.
I just used to the word explode instead of always saying die, we've seen servants vanish in the past, but all in all she probably is dead.
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