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Old 2014-05-25, 07:58   Link #34481
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, the message was there from the very beginning, it was just really awkwardly inserted into the VN version of EP8, which proably made alot of people misunderstand what Battler's idea behind the whole shennanigans actually was. It also gives the character a little bit of redemptemtion, since they are actually portrayed as "worrying too much" about Ange's reaction towards the One Truth and end up driving her towards it.
Honestly it was so awkwardly inserted than more that 'if they had made the right choices tragedy wouldn't have happened' it seemed 'if they had been put in a different setting tragedy wouldn't have happened'.

There are a lot of wrong choices in Ep 8 that aren't taken merely because there's no need for them to be taken. Beato, Shannon and Kanon have apparently separate bodies and are accepted and happy in their love stories, Kinzo is alive so Krauss won't have to hide his death, the siblings don't suspect Krauss of hiding Kinzo's death so they aren't divided in two factions, Krauss is secure in his position and not overly stressed by his failing business and by hiding Kinzo's death... actually the siblings don't even seem that desperate for money and anyway Kinzo split the inheritance so everything seems fine.
Rudolf's confession to Kyrie is an extra not witnessed by Ange and there was no moment between Rosa and Maria.

The message seems more that people did bad things because of the circumstances they were in than due to the choices they took.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I really found Beato's speech wonderful, since she (and the other family members) are really depicted as caring about Ange, it gives the character the proper background for what we were obviously expected to feel when reading EP8 back then.
I agree. I love how Ep 8 worked to create a connection, a parallel between Beato and Ange's situation that basically culminates in this moment.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'll try to make a copy of it later, but it's just a few panels showing Sayo writing and then it already moves on to the ingots sinking into the ocean.
Thank you, you're awesome!

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Btw. I really liked that they made Beato consider this, when she said that as the master of that room she could have destroyed "it" or thrown "it" into the sea. It's clearly the gold that she deems as harmful and a seed for discord, since this will (if it's included) give the scene where she throws herself into the ocean with the ingot a lot more meaning.
And when she is talking about how she was even too scared of living in the real world when that moment to "hold on to it while thinking that living might not be as bad" it shows two hands reaching for each other...so it could very clearly be an allusion to her suicide on the boat.
Yes, I've noticed the parallel and it's really, really sad. Really, Sayo seems the embodiement of Murphy's law. Nothing can work for her...

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's interesting that Battler isn't there, isn't it? But doesn't it also make a whole lot of sense? When she is witnessing this moment in what Maria and Beato call the Golden Land, all the people in that scene are dead (Eva has just died, so she would naturally be there too). Beato later even says that this is the land of death.
Yes, Battler was there before and joins them later, but thematically in this scene, it makes sense for him to be absent and is also a huge hint for the people who don't know the end yet.
Yes, it makes sense for me who know what'll happen afterward but if I look at the scene pretending I hadn't read yet Umineko it feels very weird for him not to be there, without Ange asking where he is or anyone providing he's... busy doing something.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yeah, that also explains why they didn't release a new tankobon in spring, even though they have 8 uncollected chapters together already. I suppose they will put Confession into a seperate bonus-feature maybe?
They could but I have the feeling it would work better if they were to keep everything in order instead than printing the volumes going by chapter progression and print the Confession separately... even if it can stand alone as a bonus story. Besides... what about the Ikuko interlude?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yeah, I'm still wondering how they are attempting to tie these two plots together. Since there was also Beato's comment that Ange was in "a horrible shape" and "it took time for her to even remember her original form" after she jumped off the railing in the Capital of Books/the building where she met Bern...
I do wonder if she actually did jump and injure herself and that is what rattled Tohya up...or if this is metaphorical and she got all these things sent to her...

There's also still the plot of Ikuko holding the press conference over the content of Eva's diary...which is still ongoing...that makes me wonder how that ties into events. If she has the diary, how could Ange have read it?!

Well, maybe we are just supposed to believe in the existence of witches on this one level...that Ange was actually shown all these things...though it seems weird
My guess was that when Eva died Ange found the diary and read it and then abandoned it there and, rejecting the truth in it ended up on the top of a building.

The problem is Confession. Did Eva found it, placed it with her diary to hide it and so Ange read that one too and Ikuko finding it was actually different from how it's described?

Did Ikuko found it and sent it to Ange?
It's after all in Featherine's library and Ange finds it and take it in her hands and this might have implied she ended up reading it.

After all, when we see Ange's body there are fragments near her who disappeared so it can be implied she kept it?

And that's why she later says it fleed in her mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by renosm View Post
1. This is the least important, but I find it quite difficult to wrap my head around the murdering Genji idea. I always thought that he knew murders where actually occurring and that he was assisting Sayo with them in some way. However, I cannot really picture him as a killer. I believe this has been already mentioned, but I find it kind of pointless to have him kill people as well, when Sayo could most likely go through with it on her own.
Welcome renosm!
Yes, I agree. Unless Genji is supposed to play a role in Prime (example: he was the one who actually killed the people that weren't in the golden room so when Kyrie and Rudolf came out from it they found nearly everyone already dead) and him playing murderer in the games is supposed to be a hint... I find pretty useless to have him playing the role of an extra killer... but well, I also don't like much the idea of having Eva starting murdering around with Sayo also murdering people at random (Nanjo and George and maybe Jessica?) especially because even if it could make sense that, once solved the epitaph she would obey to Eva, Eva surely wouldn't want her son to die. So it seems that even if Eva solved the epitaph Sayo went on with it on her own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renosm View Post
2. I think it is still not clear how Eva managed to move Krauss and Natsuhi's corpses all the way under the arbor after strangling them. Am I missing something or has it not been explained yet? Also, are we supposed to deduce that it was her that staked them, based on the mistaken placement of the stakes?
It might be we're missing something. Likely though Krauss and Natsuhi were drugged. If it's a drug that starts having it's effect slowly they could have dragged them out with an excuse, they walked outside, the drug took effect making them powerless to defend themselves and then she killed them.

Alternatively Krauss and Natsuhi might have been bribed/blackmailed as well. They sounded sort of not worried enough so I found them suspicious as they reminded me of Eva and Hideyoshi in Ep 1. So they were drugged, instructed to go out by Sayo and then found unconscious by Eva who could comfortably kill them.

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Originally Posted by renosm View Post
3. Finally, I am way too confused regarding Maria's rose. When we first got the Book of One Truth chapter it showed that the whole rose scenario actually did happen. This automatically made me think that all the bottle stories were written post-incident and therefore included this part. But then the Confession clarified the stories were all written and released before the conference. So what's actually going on here? I can only see two possibilities:

a) "Maria's Rose" is not mentioned in the original bottle stories and was later implemented in a meta layer of each story in the same way the meta world scenes and the fantasy scenes were implemented.

b) "Maria's Rose" was an event orchestrated by Sayo in collaboration with Maria in order for her to find a chance to hand her the invitation letter. Maria could have been told to take care of any sickly looking roses or something like that. Even though this scenario would explain the inclusion of the rose part in the stories it somehow seems a bit forced or maybe too far fetched. I thought the rose scene seemed way too natural and random to be something devised by Sayo. Then again, maybe the fact that it kept happening was a hint that something was repeatedly causing it.
My guess is that Maria's rose was considered as a possibilility by Sayo in Ep 1 and ended up being used as an excuse to allow Maria to receive Beatrice's letter in Prime. Sayo probably had thought to many ways to contact Maria and the rose seemed to work better than the others (in Ep 2 it was the candy so it's possible that she had 1 or more alternate plans...)

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Originally Posted by renosm View Post
To tell the truth the means of moving the corpses had always puzzled me a bit. Even in the first twilight murders of the first game wouldn't it be a pain for Genji and Sayo to move six adult corpses all the way to the garden shed? I always assumed that the wheelbarrow used to move the fertilizer on Kanon's first appearance was the way the bodies were moved! We are shown that it can be used by Sayo alone to move a lot of weight, so why not use it for the bodies as well?
I've always preferred to think that instead than moving the corpses they had the real people move in the shed with an excuse and then kill them there.

If Genji were to go to them and claim there's something odd with the shed or claim the master wanted to see them there they would have to go there.

It seems a much easier work than moving all those corpses... though nothing stops them from moving the corpses after everyone was killed.

After all, what proves a kill took place in the dining room? Only that there's some blood looking stuff on the ground, although not as much as there should be and they didn't even study it long. We only need to have Nanjo declare it's blood and we assume he knows what he's talking about. And it could be real blood, blood of an animal for example.
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Old 2014-05-25, 12:34   Link #34482
renosm
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

Welcome renosm!
Yes, I agree. Unless Genji is supposed to play a role in Prime (example: he was the one who actually killed the people that weren't in the golden room so when Kyrie and Rudolf came out from it they found nearly everyone already dead) and him playing murderer in the games is supposed to be a hint... I find pretty useless to have him playing the role of an extra killer... but well, I also don't like much the idea of having Eva starting murdering around with Sayo also murdering people at random (Nanjo and George and maybe Jessica?) especially because even if it could make sense that, once solved the epitaph she would obey to Eva, Eva surely wouldn't want her son to die. So it seems that even if Eva solved the epitaph Sayo went on with it on her own.
I'm glad to finally be an active part of these conversations!
First of all, are we sure that Eva really did solve the epitaph's riddle? I know it's kind of stupid to theorise about it, since such a big part of the narrative supports it, but I don't understand why Sayo would go on with the murders! She has actually declared in red that if the epitaph was solved the murders would stop!
So was the epitaph solved?
Is the whole "succession ceremony" scene implaying that solving the epitaph turned Eva into an accomplice? I just can't see this as the truth.

I have another scenario in mind regarding EP3:
Sayo (disguised into human-Beatrice) took Eva all the way to the gold room to convince her to become a murdering accomplice. She promised her part of the gold and the position of the Head and reassured her about her son's and her husband's survival (Perhaps she explained the epitaph's solution to her while she was taking her there). But there was a bomb, and the gold would blow up. There was however a reasonable portion already turned into usable cash. If Eva went along with the murders Beatrice would provide her with the code to retrieve the money. So Eva-Beatrice was the part of her that sided with Sayo. She tried to fight and deny that part of her, but she couldn't! She really wanted the money and the headship. Sayo explained that the murders were to follow the epitaph and that the victims were to be staked. If the epitaph was solved the whole thing would stop.

Now this is where it gets tricky. Maybe Rosa actually did solve the epitaph, but Sayo never knew. Obviously Eva, dazzled by the gold, couldn't accept that she lost before the murders even began! So she told Rosa that she herself had already solved the epitaph and that they should wait before announcing it. Afterwards, she murdered her on her own to keep her quite. Hence there were no stakes on Rosa and Maria's bodies! Their murders could fit the second twilight, but they weren't the second twilight murders devised by Sayo.

I'm not sure how Kyrie and Rudolf's murders played out. Was it Hideyoshi that murdered them or Sayo? Was Eva even there? Did Hideyoshi take Kyrie's bullet in order to protect Eva as theorised by Battler in the manga? It's not very clear. Perhaps Eva really was there and hence she didn't blame Sayo for Hideyoshi's death. She did however blame Evatrice, the part of her that agreed to this murder game.

After murdering George, Sayo left the code for the money written on the door marking the culmination of their deal. This part doen't add up very well to my theory. Why was Eva given the code? Was she meant to survive? No one is meant to survive in Sayo's scenarios. So why the code? Since Eva knew about the bomb she could escape. So didn't Sayo tell her about the bomb, because she planned to murder her in the end? Then maybe Eva saw through her Shannon appearence and murdered her instead! After murdering Shannon she left through the gold room tunnel leaving the bomb to blow up the island.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

It might be we're missing something. Likely though Krauss and Natsuhi were drugged. If it's a drug that starts having it's effect slowly they could have dragged them out with an excuse, they walked outside, the drug took effect making them powerless to defend themselves and then she killed them.

Alternatively Krauss and Natsuhi might have been bribed/blackmailed as well. They sounded sort of not worried enough so I found them suspicious as they reminded me of Eva and Hideyoshi in Ep 1. So they were drugged, instructed to go out by Sayo and then found unconscious by Eva who could comfortably kill them.
This is a plausible scenario! I'm not really sure if they were bribed though. In my theory Eva and sequentially Hideyoshi are the only bribed family members this time around.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post

I've always preferred to think that instead than moving the corpses they had the real people move in the shed with an excuse and then kill them there.

If Genji were to go to them and claim there's something odd with the shed or claim the master wanted to see them there they would have to go there.

It seems a much easier work than moving all those corpses... though nothing stops them from moving the corpses after everyone was killed.

After all, what proves a kill took place in the dining room? Only that there's some blood looking stuff on the ground, although not as much as there should be and they didn't even study it long. We only need to have Nanjo declare it's blood and we assume he knows what he's talking about. And it could be real blood, blood of an animal for example.
I know it could be possible to move them there beforehand like in the first twilight of EP2. However, the garden shed seems like a strange place for a meeting. It would take a really lame excuse to move them there. Of course there's always the possibility: "A midnight meeting in the garden shed? I wouldn't put it past father!" But isn't Kyrie too clever to be fooled by something like this?

P.S: I apologise about any spelling mistakes. I'm currently using my laptop and it somehow lacks an autocorrect system.
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Old 2014-05-25, 15:08   Link #34483
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by renosm View Post
I'm glad to finally be an active part of these conversations!
First of all, are we sure that Eva really did solve the epitaph's riddle?
I know it's kind of stupid to theorise about it, since such a big part of the narrative supports it, but I don't understand why Sayo would go on with the murders! She has actually declared in red that if the epitaph was solved the murders would stop!
So was the epitaph solved?
Is the whole "succession ceremony" scene implaying that solving the epitaph turned Eva into an accomplice? I just can't see this as the truth.

I have another scenario in mind regarding EP3:
Sayo (disguised into human-Beatrice) took Eva all the way to the gold room to convince her to become a murdering accomplice. She promised her part of the gold and the position of the Head and reassured her about her son's and her husband's survival (Perhaps she explained the epitaph's solution to her while she was taking her there). But there was a bomb, and the gold would blow up. There was however a reasonable portion already turned into usable cash. If Eva went along with the murders Beatrice would provide her with the code to retrieve the money. So Eva-Beatrice was the part of her that sided with Sayo. She tried to fight and deny that part of her, but she couldn't! She really wanted the money and the headship. Sayo explained that the murders were to follow the epitaph and that the victims were to be staked. If the epitaph was solved the whole thing would stop.

Now this is where it gets tricky. Maybe Rosa actually did solve the epitaph, but Sayo never knew. Obviously Eva, dazzled by the gold, couldn't accept that she lost before the murders even began! So she told Rosa that she herself had already solved the epitaph and that they should wait before announcing it. Afterwards, she murdered her on her own to keep her quite. Hence there were no stakes on Rosa and Maria's bodies! Their murders could fit the second twilight, but they weren't the second twilight murders devised by Sayo.
Yes, I too suspected that Eva didn't solve the epitaph but was handed the solution. Some dialogues between Eva and Eva-Beatrice might also actually be between Eva and Sayo. But the problem is that Rosa was lead out by Maria having a temper tantrum and this fact seems orchestrated by Sayo.

It can be that Sayo lost control of the scenery. Eva heard that Rosa was going out and followed her and the two had an argument during which Eva pushed Rosa and caused her to fall and die (Ep 7 manga version confirmed that Rosa was killed by Eva who pushed her).
While it's dangerous to push her against the fence, I wouldn't consider this a planned killing method so it can be that Rosa's death wasn't planned.
Ep 7 manga version also confirm once her mother died Maria, desperate, made a rukus and was strangled by Eva, who probably wanted to silence her.

Strangling Maria wouldn't be fitting Sayo's idea that Maria's body shouldn't be mistreated so this too seems something that wasn't planned.

In addition to this we've no stakes left near to the corpses. In short all seems to point out to something that went wrong.

This can imply that Eva had an agreement with Sayo but the same didn't apply with Rosa who found the gold by following Eva and threatened her to tattle out everything. Sayo might have preferred handling things differently, which is why Maria lead out Rosa but Eva got in between and things went the wrong way.

After all in Ep 3 a lot of things went in an unexpected way, as we've Kyrie who didn't die immediately but managed to shoot Hideyoshi and we also have Eva who by mistake blinded Jessica.

Interesting enough it isn't shown who killed Rudolf and Kyrie. Hideyoshi had no gun so it might be it was Sayo herself. If Sayo was unaware Rosa and Maria were killed it might make sense she went out of her way to kill Nanjo and George (who're killed at the tenth twilight) as for her the ritual wasn't finished yet.

Interesting enough Will provides no solution for the tenth twilight with George and Nanjo's murders as Clair won't bother asking him who did it.

(well, it's quite obvious it's Sayo but since it was a huge mystery in Ep 3 I find interesting she didn't ask who killed Nanjo)

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Originally Posted by renosm View Post
I'm not sure how Kyrie and Rudolf's murders played out. Was it Hideyoshi that murdered them or Sayo? Was Eva even there? Did Hideyoshi take Kyrie's bullet in order to protect Eva as theorised by Battler in the manga? It's not very clear. Perhaps Eva really was there and hence she didn't blame Sayo for Hideyoshi's death. She did however blame Evatrice, the part of her that agreed to this murder game.
The manga shows Hideyoshi standing there but without a gun so I'll say he didn't do the killing. As Kyrie is shot but doesn't immediately die and he's standing in front of her she shoots him. Shooting Rudolf and Kyrie one after the other requires someone who knows how handle guns and we know Eva has problems doing it. In Ep 7 when she manages learning how to recharge she does it always in a pretty cautious, slow manner. That's not fitting of how quickly she shoot Rudolf and Kyrie, who both had a gun. So I'll say the shooting was either done by Sayo (or by Genji who also faked being dead... I'll go for Sayo though because I prefer simple solutions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by renosm View Post
After murdering George, Sayo left the code for the money written on the door marking the culmination of their deal. This part doen't add up very well to my theory. Why was Eva given the code? Was she meant to survive? No one is meant to survive in Sayo's scenarios. So why the code? Since Eva knew about the bomb she could escape. So didn't Sayo tell her about the bomb, because she planned to murder her in the end? Then maybe Eva saw through her Shannon appearence and murdered her instead! After murdering Shannon she left through the gold room tunnel leaving the bomb to blow up the island.
I wonder if leaving Eva alive after she killed Battler and brutally murdered Maria was Sayo's idea of revenge as Eva also has lost George and Hideyoshi.

We see that at the end of Ep 3 Eva claims she'll condemn Ange to her sad fate, might be Sayo decided to condemn Eva to a fate for her sadder than death as well.

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Originally Posted by renosm View Post
This is a plausible scenario! I'm not really sure if they were bribed though. In my theory Eva and sequentially Hideyoshi are the only bribed family members this time around.
Well, so far they're the only confirmed accomplices so it can be the others weren't bribed... yet Natsuhi and Krauss' interaction always stuck me as odd. They seem too calm. But maybe it's just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renosm View Post
I know it could be possible to move them there beforehand like in the first twilight of EP2. However, the garden shed seems like a strange place for a meeting. It would take a really lame excuse to move them there. Of course there's always the possibility: "A midnight meeting in the garden shed? I wouldn't put it past father!" But isn't Kyrie too clever to be fooled by something like this?
They might have been tricked into going there with different excuses. For example Gohda might have been told it was an order, Rudolf, Kyrie and Rosa might have been told that there they would meet someone in secrecy that would give them info on something (the gold, a proof of Kinzo being really dead, do your pick) and Krauss might have been led there by Genji with the excuse he had to see something important (same as they did with Natsuhi later on... only she didn't end up getting killed). Actually leading them there one after the other makes the killing easier.

As Eva and Hideyoshi worked as accomplices they might have helped in the persuasion that it was a good idea to go there.

But, of course, they could have also be carried there. I guess Ryukishi let us free to pick whatever solution. As Sayo has Genji he is strong enough to carry all the bodies.
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Old 2014-05-27, 01:43   Link #34484
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The message seems more that people did bad things because of the circumstances they were in than due to the choices they took.
I agree that a lot of things were left up to imagination. I get this feeling that Ryukishi might be quite a Mystery nerd himself and he got so wrapped up in genre-tropes that made certain things seem natural to him that need some introduction and establishment in a proper story.
Yes, in a good of 80% of all Japanese mystery-solving novels it is a matter of foul environment breeding tragedy and less about innocence destroyed by evil. But even if I am right with my reading of his intention, I also agree that you cannot just throw something out there and expect people to just get it without at least nudging the newcomers in the right direction.

Quote:
I agree. I love how Ep 8 worked to create a connection, a parallel between Beato and Ange's situation that basically culminates in this moment.
I have to say, I never paid much attention to it during the VN because it never seemed to go anywhere. With the manga it seems as if it was a matter of the very poor editing that VN-EP8 went through, because even the lines that were there take on a completely new meaning.
The sad thing is, even the PS3 version of EP8 seems poor now, since for some reason the seiyuu seemed as confused concerning what to do with the scenes as we readers were. The battle between Ange and Beatrice in the chapel is piss-poor compared to how it appears in the manga, not because Ohara or Sat˘ are doing a bad job, but because it lacks context and all the important lines lack impact...Beato just appears uncontextually mean and Ange just bitchy and whiny.

At the end of chapter 25 now, Ange breaks down crying (in a positive way of finally allowing grief), banging on Beato's chest, when being told to grasp her happiness and live...that is a development that I wanted to see.

Quote:
Thank you, you're awesome!

Spoiler for Translation:


Quote:
Did Ikuko found it and sent it to Ange?
It's after all in Featherine's library and Ange finds it and take it in her hands and this might have implied she ended up reading it.
Well, right now I (and the Japanese fandom) can think of 2 alternatives:
1. The fantasy-alternative would be that Ange IS actually going through the world of the witches and comes into contact with the Fragment that is CotGW, so that Sayo's message bottle CotGW can still remain in Ikuko's care without ever reaching her, just the same as with the Book of One Truth.
2.
Quote:
The reality-alternative
implies that everything we see in Ange's travel is codified as a document written by Featherikuko as well (as she implies in chapter 21). This would mean that Ange travelling to the "Capital of Books" under the guidance of Featherine and Bern and there finding CotGW along with being handed the BotOT is just codification for her coming to the Hachijo's home and there finding Sayo's message bottle while waiting for Ikuko to hand her Eva's diary.

I think, if the manga keeps on going like this, we might get an answer sometime this year.

Quote:
It might be we're missing something. Likely though Krauss and Natsuhi were drugged.
It's actually very likely. Since Eva says before leaving the parlor that she'll make coffee and there is a large emphasis laid on this whole aspect, it is not unlikely to assume that the coffe was either poisoned or drugged. We know now that this is at least how the EP2 1stTwilight happened.

Quote:
Sayo probably had thought to many ways to contact Maria and the rose seemed to work better than the others (in Ep 2 it was the candy so it's possible that she had 1 or more alternate plans...)
Yeah, I totally forgot the candy and that I found it strange why that didn't happen in any of the other 3 core-stories...it would make total sense if this was one of many ways thought up by Sayo but, since only Legend and Turn made it ashore and Tohya actually remembered the rose-thing happening and inserted it in the story, this was the one that stuck.
If you think about it, this gives Maria a whole other level of creep-factor...I know for her it didn't seem as permanent, since she's a child and she probably actually believed in the Golden Land...but she still actually wanted to KILL her mother...and even the candy thing turns really dark now...


Quote:
Originally Posted by renosm View Post
Is the whole "succession ceremony" scene implaying that solving the epitaph turned Eva into an accomplice? I just can't see this as the truth.
Well, if we take all that into further consideration (and back then I actually considered that Young-Eva talking to Eva was actually a code for the culprit talking to her) she is talking to Young Eva before she even thinks about solving the epitaph.
Sayo says in CotGW(2) that she could convince Eva and Hideyoshi by threatening to hurt George and by showing them a part of the gold. We can assume from EP2 that she likely didn't take them all the way to the Room of Gold, but instead just showed them part of it.

Let's go over EP3 for that:
Spoiler for My EP3 understanding:


In the end, an important thing we shouldn't forget is:
All of the Fragments we see in the Episodes are not any more real than BATTLER's Fragment of Happiness in EP8!
They are all just IFs, which Sayo also mentions alot in CotGW. Things that could have happened under the right circumstances, but it is also implied that her idea of reality was too naive. The adults weren't too busy and stupid to solve the epitaph, the children might not just go along with her suicide plan, the servants maybe aren't just loyal machines. Similar to how Battler's vision was too perfectly sweet, Sayo's vision was too perfectly dark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Interesting enough it isn't shown who killed Rudolf and Kyrie.
It is said in the EP7 manga that it was Hideyoshi.
It said, I quote, "Eva and Hideyoshi were being bribed. Being suspected, Hideyoshi killed Rudolph and Kyrie in the mansion. The not immediately dead Kyrie killed Hideyoshi."
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Old 2014-05-27, 09:55   Link #34485
IceBorg
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I was rereading the EP7 tea party and I noticed that when Kyrie goes to the guest house she uses a kitchen knife to kill.
Genji used a kitchen knife in EP2 to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa.
I wonder if those two things have some relation to Genji's true role in Prime.
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Old 2014-05-27, 18:52   Link #34486
jjblue1
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Spoiler for Hopefully complete list of who get killed, by whom, where and how for each episode, first according to the magic narrative, then according to the mystery narrative:


Spoiler for Replies to Haguruma under spoiler-cut due to lenght:


Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBorg View Post
I was rereading the EP7 tea party and I noticed that when Kyrie goes to the guest house she uses a kitchen knife to kill.
Genji used a kitchen knife in EP2 to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa.
I wonder if those two things have some relation to Genji's true role in Prime.
It'll be interesting if it were a hint that actually in Prime Genji has started following the epitaph as per program while the adults were killing each other in the golden room. It would also resemble the structure of Ep 3 as in Ep 3 the adults offed each other but the servants were offed by Sayo and the same applied to George and (possibly) to Jessica.

If the planned sacrifices for the first twilight for Prime were Kumasawa, Nanjo, Gohda, Maria, George and Jessica Kyrie and Rudolf might have returned to a rather empty house.
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Old 2014-05-29, 02:56   Link #34487
haguruma
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The reality-alternative possibility might also be true but wasn't it said that Hachijo refused to meet her? Unless Tohya refused to do so and Ikuko instead met her and handed her all that? Or we were lied about Tohya refusing to meet her?
Well, at least in EP6 (and in a way in 8) Ikuko DID meet with her under the guise of being Tohya. In that way we were not lied to but told only part of the truth. Tohya did refuse to meet with her, but she still met a Hachijo.

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Hum... as Hideyoshi isn't shown holding a gun I feel tempted to ask if the Japanese sentence is really that binding or it can be translated in another way that leaves the doubt on who killed Rudolf and Kyrie.
Well, the panel is too narrow to see whether he is holding anything, but no, the sentence leaves no doubt. Literally translated it is: "The doubted Hideyoshi, at the mansion, killed Rudolph and Kyrie."

Quote:
Interesting enough it doesn't seem like Rudolf is holding a gun but he might have dropped it when he was shoot but what's even more interesting is that Hideyoshi definitely doesn't look like holding one when he faces Kyrie who's on her knees.
I took a look at the manga again and there are some interesting things that the story is telling us.
First of all, there are only two guns, Hideyoshi's and Rudolph's. Hideyoshi hands his gone over to Kyrie because he is going to push the food cart. So they were trying to get food, but we know that it never was about getting food, so that should be a lie. Also, after the Chiesters attack Rudolph and Kyrie and Beatrice reprimands Eva-Beato, Hideyoshi is suddenly holding a gun again, standing amongst the carnage.
It probably really was very confusing and fast, with Hideyoshi acting on impulse more than cold-blooded thoughts...yet, we have to consider these are stories, so more on that now:

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For me if Eva was bribed, Sayo is more like trying to go on with her epitaph than anything else so she keeps on killing regardless of Eva's murders... or considers Eva's murders as part of the ritual same way as she does with Genji's murders in other episodes.
This raises an interesting question that was so far only prominently raised in regards to EP5 within the narrative: The question of author and intent.
So, we know that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo but modelled after her tales. This made me think again, with current knowledge, and especially the moment right before the game is suspended struck me as odd or maybe meaningful.

So, on a meta-level BATTLER is disgusted by the deeds of BEATRICE that are carried out by Eva-Beato from the 2nd twilight onwards. So as a way to mend their relationship, BEATRICE attempts to intervene by acting as Beatrice on the gameboard and either mending the horrors committed by Eva-Beato or at least giving them a sweeter taste. She is especially shown trying to give George and Jessica a happy end with Shannon and Kanon respectively, with Eva-Beato intruding on these. She does that, claiming that she is the New Beatrice and insults her "sendaisama", literally, "The Last Generation" as an old hag that has nothing to say anymore since Eva-Beato is now in possession of all the magic.

Now that reminded me of something that Eva-Beato said in EP8 (don't know if only manga or also VN), which is that she is the Beatrice of 1986 to 1998 and that all of the island belongs to her, also that she wants to spin countless Eva-culprit theories that are more horrible than any other.
That made me think further.

Back to EP3, this is when Eva-Beato tries to kill Beato but, while able to destroy her body, is unable to defeat her golden heart. By now we know that the heart of Beatrice's stories is a central symbol of Sayo's message, her attempts and her pleads towards the outside world, so what does that scene tell us. Ronove says that in the moment Beatrice's Golden Heart shone, she became the true Endless Witch Beatrice and that Eva-Beato lost all her powers. Then, when Eva-Beato tries to stomp on Beato's now powerless and battered heart to destroy it completely, Battler intervenes and says that her battle is with him and that she is the true villain of this piece.

This made me think that EP3 and Eva-Beato is less about the story of Eva becoming a culprit, but of how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 and what that means for the narrative of Sayo's tales.

Why does Young-Eva become Eva-Beato in that strange ceremony in the gold room? Let's look at this story not as an actual event, but a theory from the perspective of post-1986 and the perspectives of Tohya and Ange:
In post-1986 Eva did survive and she carried both the ring and succeeded the family, so she was assumed the culprit. At the same time, a being called Beatrice is claimed to be the culprit. So Eva-Beato is the Beatrice of these ideas, not Sayo's Beatrice, that was driven by emotion and a desire to be accepted and found, but the future world's Eva-Beatrice, that was driven by a lust for vengence, blood and carnage.
Eva-Beato in that sense is not Eva, she is the Beatrice of a world in which Eva is the culprit, a world that especially Ange wants to see. And that is exactly what drives BATTLER and by connection Tohya into this corner.
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Old 2014-05-29, 10:51   Link #34488
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@jjblue1:

I'd say, even in the illusion of the witch, Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie, so that should be added into the magic culprit paragraph as well.
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Old 2014-05-29, 18:05   Link #34489
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As a person who does not like admitting that they are wrong X( It bothers me that Eva killed Kratushi. If you apply the wolf and sheep puzzle, it would require two other accomplices to do it. She also could have just used a shotgun to kill them both (hypothetically, she would have to in order to apply a stake anyway). Well, the same (shotgun and wolf and sheep) could be said for Maria and Rosa's murders. Will mentions "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade" in EP7, and I guess that Eva counts as the 'obvious culprit'.

The whole wolf and sheep rule is not one that necessarily applies (which it supposedly does with Battler's death), you have think from both sides of the equation (e.g. One sheep was actually a wolf in sheep's clothing).

As for Haguruma's mentioning of Eva Beatrice culprit theory catching on: I kind of agree. AuraTwilight mentions that Beatrice would be taking the fall for someone else and I went on to believe that as symbolism of Beatrice as a 'rule' that Eva-Beatrice would subsequently follow.
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Old 2014-05-29, 18:59   Link #34490
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
@jjblue1:

I'd say, even in the illusion of the witch, Hideyoshi was killed by Kyrie, so that should be added into the magic culprit paragraph as well.
Nope, Eva-Beatrice declared she moved Kyrie's gun with magic to kill Hideyoshi. So officially, for the magic version the culprit is still Eva. Of course, even without the manga confirming it, we could guess that in truth it was Kyrie who shot him.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, at least in EP6 (and in a way in 8) Ikuko DID meet with her under the guise of being Tohya. In that way we were not lied to but told only part of the truth. Tohya did refuse to meet with her, but she still met a Hachijo.
Might be but in Ep 8 it's said Ange just contacted the publishing company but they never let her meet him. She doesn't look like she knows Ikuko and the Hachijo tells they were told it was Ange but that Tohya refused to meet her.

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Well, the panel is too narrow to see whether he is holding anything, but no, the sentence leaves no doubt. Literally translated it is: "The doubted Hideyoshi, at the mansion, killed Rudolph and Kyrie."
Well, when Kyrie is on the ground we get a close up of Hideyoshi's right hand and he's holding no gun... which looks rather odd to me but maybe it'll be fixed in the volumes?
Oh, okay. I've asked because I saw someone translating it as: "Hideyoshi is suspected. At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed."

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I took a look at the manga again and there are some interesting things that the story is telling us.
First of all, there are only two guns, Hideyoshi's and Rudolph's. Hideyoshi hands his gone over to Kyrie because he is going to push the food cart. So they were trying to get food, but we know that it never was about getting food, so that should be a lie. Also, after the Chiesters attack Rudolph and Kyrie and Beatrice reprimands Eva-Beato, Hideyoshi is suddenly holding a gun again, standing amongst the carnage.
It probably really was very confusing and fast, with Hideyoshi acting on impulse more than cold-blooded thoughts...yet, we have to consider these are stories, so more on that now:
Yes, but it makes sense that Kyrie would try to get possession of Hideyoshi's gun by suggesting him to push the serving cart before questioning him.
I mean... she looks wise enough to know if they own a gun each things can get ugly for her and Rudolf too.
Also the manga makes clear Kyrie had a gun and Rudolf is lying too far from Kyrie for her to take it from him.

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This raises an interesting question that was so far only prominently raised in regards to EP5 within the narrative: The question of author and intent.
So, we know that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo but modelled after her tales. This made me think again, with current knowledge, and especially the moment right before the game is suspended struck me as odd or maybe meaningful.
I'm not sure how to interpret Ep 3, honestly.
It should have love as Meta speaking it was written by Beato therefore the rule epitaph solved=murders stop should hold true.

I'm not sure Eva-Beatrice counts as a Meta character or she's just, like Erika, a piece dragged in the meta room, and even if Battler challenged her, she's just subjected to her master in truth, regardless of her liking it or not and could kill Beatrice on the board merely because that was the plot Beatrice devised so as to trick Battler who can't really differenziate between piece Beatrice and Meta Beatrice (we can clearly see in Ep 5 they're different).

Undoubtely part of the author's intent here is to depict that something went wrong with the plan. Regardless of the fact that the epitaph was solved or Eva was bribed with the promise of being handed the solution Rosa's murder seems more incidental than planned (pushing her against the fence doesn't really look like the best, safest, murdering strategy) and apparently Hideyoshi ended up alone with Rudolf and Kyrie on Kyrie's prompting and not due to his own planning. Kyrie also ended up suspecting of him for a mistake he made.

Considering the author is Tohya he might be trying to deliver a message about Prime, about how things went wrong but actually didn't follow a plan.

But in all this speculation we still have piece Shannon/Kanon deciding to insist this is the work of a witch and killing 2 people (George and Nanjo) and we aren't sure if Jessica was just hidden or was also killed.

As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved.

Of course magically speaking we can say it's not Beatrice who's doing the killing but Eva-Beatrice but... does this work to excuse piece Sayo from actually killing for her own agenda whatever that can be?

I'm not sure, it could, it could not.

It can entirely be that the whole story is about how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 but the problem is that PieceYasu's actions remain unconnected.

I could accept it as her becoming Eva's servant of some sort as she said she would serve whoever solved the epitaph but I doubt Eva wanted George dead and Sayo really seems to act not in accord with Eva.

So... I'll admit I'm confuse. I can accept the murders being played out as presented by the manga but I can't see the logic behind Sayo's action.

I hope future bits will clear up this further.
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Old 2014-05-30, 08:37   Link #34491
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I'm not sure how to interpret Ep 3, honestly.
It should have love as Meta speaking it was written by Beato therefore the rule epitaph solved=murders stop should hold true.
But exactly that is the part that is important. From a meta-perspective, Beato abandons her rights as the Beatrice of this gameboard mid-game and hands it over to the new Beatrice.
From a narrative standpoint of the meta-plane gameboards aren't written, they are laid out by the GM and then unfold according to how the players progress. In that sense, Eva-Beato in EP3 is very similar to Will in EP7. She is given a certain amount of creative freedom by the GM Beato (as did Bern with Will in 7) but the GM can still call the shots, as Beato did in the very end when she destroyed Eva-Beato.

Quote:
I'm not sure Eva-Beatrice counts as a Meta character or she's just, like Erika, a piece dragged in the meta room, and even if Battler challenged her, she's just subjected to her master in truth, regardless of her liking it or not and could kill Beatrice on the board merely because that was the plot Beatrice devised so as to trick Battler who can't really differenziate between piece Beatrice and Meta Beatrice (we can clearly see in Ep 5 they're different).
The question here is, was that really Beato's design? Even the plot of EP3 called that into question fairly obviously, since she had no actual power to convinve Eva-Beato to stop her cruelties. She was able to deny her existence as "the true culprit" in the end, like they were able to trap Erika in the end of EP6, but she still had power.
Regarding that Eva-Beato said something very important when Beato reminded her that her acting careless will scare off Battler's will to engage in the game:
"Then that has to do with a world that is no concern of mine! [...] My Predecessor? I am already a witch! Different from you, who can't be a witch without being accepted by some game oponent from another world, I am a witch with magical powers without ever being accepted!"
EP3 does not unfold with the purpose of proving that someone is a witch, but showing how a presupposed witch acts. Remember what Eva was called in the tabloids? "The witch of Rokkenjima"!

Quote:
Considering the author is Tohya he might be trying to deliver a message about Prime, about how things went wrong but actually didn't follow a plan.
Here is I think one of the key problems where we have different ideas about the authorship. It is always mentioned that the Hachijo's write as a duo. Ikuko is the writer and Tohya gives ideas, proofreads and edits her works. In my understanding, this story was equally thrust unto Tohya as was the message bottles, but in the form of Ikuko's forgery.
We know from CotGW that Sayo's favourite locked room was the one that featured in EP3, which was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch. So on a meta-meta-level we could even say that Ikuko took this idea and formed a new story out of it, so her Eva-culprit-theory became the intruder Eva-Beato on an already existing gameboard.

As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved.

Quote:
It can entirely be that the whole story is about how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 but the problem is that PieceYasu's actions remain unconnected.
And that is exactly the point: Similarly to EP5, the culprit looses a layer of motives and becomes a mere villain by this. Shannon's crimes loose meaning because the narrative looses focus. That is actually also the case to a minor degree in EP4, where the narrative acts in order to confuse Battler and the reader by countering the idea that Kinzo is dead, only to reaffirm it at the end. The only point in which EP4 properly hints towards the true nature of the game is in form of the fantasy narrative, while it completely starts to seperate from the mystery narrative.

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I hope future bits will clear up this further.
I would like to learn more about the timeframe in which creation of the forgeries, Tohya's involvement, Confession being found, and his memory returning seem to fit...
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Old 2014-05-30, 21:50   Link #34492
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But exactly that is the part that is important. From a meta-perspective, Beato abandons her rights as the Beatrice of this gameboard mid-game and hands it over to the new Beatrice.
From a narrative standpoint of the meta-plane gameboards aren't written, they are laid out by the GM and then unfold according to how the players progress. In that sense, Eva-Beato in EP3 is very similar to Will in EP7. She is given a certain amount of creative freedom by the GM Beato (as did Bern with Will in 7) but the GM can still call the shots, as Beato did in the very end when she destroyed Eva-Beato.
She abandones them as culprit but not as GM. We've an interesting talk between Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice in which Beatrice complains Eva isn't acting as planned... which might be a hint to how PieceEva in the gameboard took matters in her own hands and against PieceSayo's plans... but that also confirm that's still Beatrice who's fighting Battler and that Battler is in a different world from Eva-Beatrice (he's in the meta, she's on the gameboard) and that the two can't interact.
Also, Beatrice fully acnowledge game 3 as her own and asks Will to solve it while she won't care about having the solution of Ep 5 which was created by Lambda.
All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it.

We also saw that for the trial in Ep 5 PieceBeato could 'join the meta' even though she didn't become MetaBeato so I guess the same might have happened to Eva-Beatrice when MetaBattler challenged her.

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The question here is, was that really Beato's design? Even the plot of EP3 called that into question fairly obviously, since she had no actual power to convinve Eva-Beato to stop her cruelties. She was able to deny her existence as "the true culprit" in the end, like they were able to trap Erika in the end of EP6, but she still had power.
Regarding that Eva-Beato said something very important when Beato reminded her that her acting careless will scare off Battler's will to engage in the game:
"Then that has to do with a world that is no concern of mine! [...] My Predecessor? I am already a witch! Different from you, who can't be a witch without being accepted by some game oponent from another world, I am a witch with magical powers without ever being accepted!"
EP3 does not unfold with the purpose of proving that someone is a witch, but showing how a presupposed witch acts. Remember what Eva was called in the tabloids? "The witch of Rokkenjima"!
Well, it's implied it's MetaBeato's design. She wanted to help Battler solve everything so she created a setting in which she could give him someone who'll help him (Virgilia) and then tried to help him personally.
I'll say the one who has not the power to stop her is PieceBeatrice not MetaBeatrice.
Tohya might have modelled Eva on the Eva he knew from tabloids but that's a matter regarding Prime.

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Here is I think one of the key problems where we have different ideas about the authorship. It is always mentioned that the Hachijo's write as a duo. Ikuko is the writer and Tohya gives ideas, proofreads and edits her works. In my understanding, this story was equally thrust unto Tohya as was the message bottles, but in the form of Ikuko's forgery.
We know from CotGW that Sayo's favourite locked room was the one that featured in EP3, which was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch. So on a meta-meta-level we could even say that Ikuko took this idea and formed a new story out of it, so her Eva-culprit-theory became the intruder Eva-Beato on an already existing gameboard.
I might have expressed myself poorly as I've mentioned only Tohya but I didn't forget Ikuko was likely also a writer of the forgery.
It's possible Ikuko found Land and plagiarized it (after all she had found confession and we were never told about its existence while at least Land gets mentioned so it makes sense Ikuko and Tohya knows about it existing) but I'll say Tohya still have a hand in it. Ikuko didn't seem confident to share her works with others before he came into play... though yes, it can also be Banquet is actually the tale she handed to Battler/Tohya when he was in the hospital and he didn't manage to connect things but later fixed it and they released it?
I guess we need more info?

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And that is exactly the point: Similarly to EP5, the culprit looses a layer of motives and becomes a mere villain by this. Shannon's crimes loose meaning because the narrative looses focus. That is actually also the case to a minor degree in EP4, where the narrative acts in order to confuse Battler and the reader by countering the idea that Kinzo is dead, only to reaffirm it at the end. The only point in which EP4 properly hints towards the true nature of the game is in form of the fantasy narrative, while it completely starts to seperate from the mystery narrative.
Yes, but Ep 4 remains clearly a game with love and the only huge problem we've with it it's that fantasy is so much all over the places we've hard time figuring out when things took place. Although helped by Genji (which as I previously stated I found useless as she could have carried out all that on her own) Sayo remains the main culprit, the epitaph isn't solved and so she carries out her ritual and the only big difference from game 1 & 2 is that she kills everyone minus Battler and don't just content herself with the number of people the epitaph required.
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Old 2014-06-02, 08:48   Link #34493
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In some regards we seem to have a completely different reading of several elements within Umineko...though I admit it's kinda fun that even years later we can still have discussions like this.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
which might be a hint to how PieceEva in the gameboard took matters in her own hands and against PieceSayo's plans... but that also confirm that's still Beatrice who's fighting Battler and that Battler is in a different world from Eva-Beatrice (he's in the meta, she's on the gameboard) and that the two can't interact.
I think that the conflict between Shannon's (Sayo technically doesn't exist as a piece) and Eva's interests is a part of that discussion, but I don't think it is all, because Eva-Beato is clearly not just Eva. We have Eva-Beatrice filling in for four things actually:
  1. Eva herself directly killing,
  2. The effect Eva's obvious ambition has on other people (Kyrie planning to seperate Eva's branch),
  3. The killings that happen due to Eva's indirect actions (Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi),
  4. The killings that happen outside of Eva's influence but under the impression it might have been her (George, Nanjo).

More than proving that it is Beato who is still leading the game, she entered a pact with somebody who was a clear threat to her ambition but of course for the reason of making Battler want to trust her over a worse option. And here I think it is where we have to seperate meta-story from meta-meaning.
There is no Beato who tries a strategy on Battler in order to lure him into accepting her, that is the meta-plot that moves parallel to the 1986 and the 1998 plot. It's basically the 1986-reading of the events proposed by Sayo, winning out because both the horribleness and the impossibility of the 1986-1998-reading proposed by society.

Quote:
Also, Beatrice fully acnowledge game 3 as her own and asks Will to solve it while she won't care about having the solution of Ep 5 which was created by Lambda.
No, Clair vaux Bernadus, the vessel of the true culprit acknowledges and proposes EP3 as a plan of crime of her design. She is not Beatrice, since she only exists on a gameboard where Beatrice does not. Yes, she takes the same shape as Sayo's second Beatrice, but that would still differentiate her from culprit-Beatrice, who has the shape of Kinzo's/Battler's Beatrice.

All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it.

Quote:
We also saw that for the trial in Ep 5 PieceBeato could 'join the meta' even though she didn't become MetaBeato so I guess the same might have happened to Eva-Beatrice when MetaBattler challenged her.
I wouldn't fully claim these Beato's to be pieces, since we do not know by whose design they are moved. If any it would be Lambda, since Beato is clearly working against Bern, but that would enter the question why Lambda would propose a heartless game in which a Beato with a heart exists and struggles to prove it. The Beato that joins the court is apparently somewhere inbetween, since she has Sayo's relationship with Battler but apparently not the full kndowledge of the boards to be able to protect Natsuhi...she is more a part of Sayo's rules crystalized in the form of Beato in a game where she actually has no reason to exist.

Quote:
Yes, but Ep 4 remains clearly a game with love and the only huge problem we've with it it's that fantasy is so much all over the places we've hard time figuring out when things took place.
I think EP4 is much more than just that. One thing that springs to my mind is the fact of actually two Beatrice's existing here already, who are clearly in direct contact with each other but share different goals.
One of the big things I am proposing is, and I don't know if that got across, is that MetaBeato is not Sayo and is basically not even Sayo's Beatrice, she is the Hachijo's (mainly Tohya's) Beatrice. There is a very central scene in EP4 where PieceBeato enters back from the balcony after Battler showed incapable of solving her riddle, then the two Beatrice's (meta and fiction) face each other and MetaBeatrice tells her that she can rest now and she will take over from here.
Yes, on the one hand this shows that this is the point where Shannon decided to let it all go and let everybody die, on the other hand the event goes on to MetaBeato wanting to discard the game altogether. Why would this have any relevance if this was merely Sayo's intent, since Battler/Tohya cannot be further influenced by an action that Sayo (who is likely dead) would take.
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Old 2014-06-02, 16:25   Link #34494
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In some regards we seem to have a completely different reading of several elements within Umineko...though I admit it's kinda fun that even years later we can still have discussions like this.
LOL, I agree. With Umineko one never ends to discuss about it.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think that the conflict between Shannon's (Sayo technically doesn't exist as a piece) and Eva's interests is a part of that discussion, but I don't think it is all, because Eva-Beato is clearly not just Eva. We have Eva-Beatrice filling in for four things actually:
  1. Eva herself directly killing,
  2. The effect Eva's obvious ambition has on other people (Kyrie planning to seperate Eva's branch),
  3. The killings that happen due to Eva's indirect actions (Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi),
  4. The killings that happen outside of Eva's influence but under the impression it might have been her (George, Nanjo).
Well, to me Eva-Beatrice is a fantasy explanation similar to the Beatrice of Ep 5.
Beatrice of Ep 5 seems a single character but part of her she stands in for Natsuhi's fantasies, part of her works to offer a cover up for the man of 19 years ago's plan (the letter, the corpses disapeparing) and a part might work to support the fantasy-meta theme (Beatrice interacting with Battler, jumping in his arms, remembering the past games or despairing over how he doesn't remember his promise surely doesn't fit Natsuhi's Beatrice but likely not even the man of 19 years ago's Beatrice as he can't have awareness of the previous boards and apparently is more focused in revenge than in Battler).

Ultimately though, although Beatrice has apparently some freedom of action (it's Beatrice's party who handed Battler the ring and supposedly caused the corpses to disappear according to the magic narrative... and Beatrice will go so far as to claim she even killed the servant and caused the baby's fall) and even speaks up at the trial, she's just... a magic explanation, a fantasy character that doesn't reperesent a single person but various stuffs.

For me Eva-Beatrice's situation is similar. She stands in as a magic explanation for various stuffs, implying Eva's involvement in some of them in a rather obvious way but, at the same time, not necessarily being Eva or even someone in control. She's just 'the culprit' in some facts, same as Beatrice claimed to be in Ep 5.

If however we wonder on a Prime angle on why Eva-Beatrice exists, likely it is because in Tohya's world the culprit isn't Sayo with her Beatrice but Eva. If they think that there's someone behind those mysterious happenings they think it was Eva pretending to be Beatrice, not someone else.

Ep 3 was probably structured to create a let's call it 'Sayo's game board' that however would work with the truths and beliefs of Prime.

If we look at Ep 3 carefully in a way it resembles Ep 7 Teaparty.
In Ep 7 Teaparty Eva kills a person by mistake (Natsuhi) and in Ep 3 Rosa's murder was likely not planned. Then there's another murder due to the reaction of this person at the first murder (Krauss attacked Eva who killed Natsuhi, Maria made too much noise when her mother was killed by Eva). The following murder takes place after a debate over Eva (and Hideyoshi) killing on purpose or by mistake Natsuhi and Krauss in the Teaparty and over Kyrie suspecting Eva and Hideyoshi to be the one who murdered Rosa. We've a person shoot that she didn't die and therefore got her chance to shoot as well (Kyrie, although she'll die later on in Ep 3 and Eva in the Teaparty). We've 2 murders done likely out of the suspicions the others were responsible of murdering someone else (likely Eva though Natsuhi and Krauss were responsible for Hideyoshi's death and in the Teaparty she was sure Kyrie and Rudolf were the culprits).
Then we've the murders of the servants and of George and Jessica of whom Eva knows nothing about and can only speculate on who killed them.

In short in a way both settings have similar elements even if the background is pretty different.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
No, Clair vaux Bernadus, the vessel of the true culprit acknowledges and proposes EP3 as a plan of crime of her design. She is not Beatrice, since she only exists on a gameboard where Beatrice does not. Yes, she takes the same shape as Sayo's second Beatrice, but that would still differentiate her from culprit-Beatrice, who has the shape of Kinzo's/Battler's Beatrice.
Beatrice acknowledged that gameboard in Ep 4 as well. Battler has to solve it in order to win. And I'm not sure we can say that Clair exists in a gameboard in which Beato doesn't exist. That gameboard is a patchwork of a gameboard in which Beato didn't exist and one in which she did. The true culprit shouldn't exist as a separate existence in Lion's world (Lion and the true culprit are... let's call it the same person in 2 different fragments) so it must also come from the world in which it didn't exist.

(On a sidenote I can't say I exactly loved the idea to introduce Clair as another identity for Sayo but I'm toying with the idea that Clair isn't exacly Sayo but more the personification of 'Confession of the Golden Witch' so she works as Narrator. The petals scattering when Will hit her might be a poetic way to name the piece of papers on which the confession was written... not that I expect the manga to confirm this)


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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I wouldn't fully claim these Beato's to be pieces, since we do not know by whose design they are moved. If any it would be Lambda, since Beato is clearly working against Bern, but that would enter the question why Lambda would propose a heartless game in which a Beato with a heart exists and struggles to prove it. The Beato that joins the court is apparently somewhere inbetween, since she has Sayo's relationship with Battler but apparently not the full kndowledge of the boards to be able to protect Natsuhi...she is more a part of Sayo's rules crystalized in the form of Beato in a game where she actually has no reason to exist.
Well, for me the piece called Beatrice is always not a real person but the personification of the 'rule' that for every mysterious happening Beatrice is the one that gets blamed. In short on the gameboard she's not more alive than the Chiesters (which are just guns) or the sever sisters (paper weights) but that in the magic setting have a character, a heart, meta knowledge and so on. She can however look like she has a vessel because often it's Sayo who causes the mysterious happenings for which Beatrice gets blamed... but actually in Ep 3 we see that it's Beatrice that in the end kills Rosa and Maria when instead we've just seen confirmation that it was Eva (the scene is interesting because Beatrice becomes the culprit when Battler rejects the things Eva was doing... which might also be Battler rejecting Eva might be the culprit).

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think EP4 is much more than just that. One thing that springs to my mind is the fact of actually two Beatrice's existing here already, who are clearly in direct contact with each other but share different goals.
One of the big things I am proposing is, and I don't know if that got across, is that MetaBeato is not Sayo and is basically not even Sayo's Beatrice, she is the Hachijo's (mainly Tohya's) Beatrice. There is a very central scene in EP4 where PieceBeato enters back from the balcony after Battler showed incapable of solving her riddle, then the two Beatrice's (meta and fiction) face each other and MetaBeatrice tells her that she can rest now and she will take over from here.
Yes, on the one hand this shows that this is the point where Shannon decided to let it all go and let everybody die, on the other hand the event goes on to MetaBeato wanting to discard the game altogether. Why would this have any relevance if this was merely Sayo's intent, since Battler/Tohya cannot be further influenced by an action that Sayo (who is likely dead) would take.
While I'm a supporter of the idea MetaBeato exists only in Tohya's mind for me the dialogue between the two Beato is nothing else but a monologue in Sayo's head. We saw the manga reinforcing the idea of Sayo representing the conflicts in her mind with herself, Kanon and Beatrice. Sayo right then was just dressed as Beatrice, which is why we see it as a dialogue between Beatrice and Beatrice and not between Beatrice and Sayo (or Shannon if you prefer).

The whole 'I'll clean up for you' might merely be a reference to how everything will be covered up by 'Beatrice's magic' so that Beatrice will look like the culprit and not Sayo. 'Beatrice's magic' will also be what will 'magically' kill Battler (the bomb).

On a sidenote I really enjoy discussing Umineko with you so thank you for giving me the possibility to theorize more!
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Old 2014-06-03, 08:29   Link #34495
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I really enjoy the discussion too. It gives me a little bit time to relax and let of steam, since none of my Japanese friends has actually caught up to EP8 in the manga so far...since it was me who actually got them to read it in the first place

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
despairing over how he doesn't remember his promise surely doesn't fit Natsuhi's Beatrice but likely not even the man of 19 years ago's Beatrice as he can't have awareness of the previous boards and apparently is more focused in revenge than in Battler).
Actually this point kind of points into the direction I am going: Similar to EP3, the true culprit in EP5 and Beato are separated into having dissimilar goals. EP1 and 2 clearly exist in the framework that Sayo put up for her stories, she murders people, with the help of a co-culprit, under the the guise of the witch Beatrice, handing out numerous hints in order to guide people towards understanding her. EP3 is working from a deductive standpoint that succeded the reality of 1986-Rokkenjima: "Murder is said to have happened, only living people can murder, Ushiromiya Eva is alive, therefore Ushiromiya Eva is the murderer!" And yet it also introduces doubt about Eva's culpability, absolving her of at least half of the murders happened. Basically you could also say that she acts in a manner similar to Erika in EP5 and 6, ending up in a logic error.

Having reread it today, I would say that EP4 is inherently different from EP1 and 2 as well though, since it basically centralizes the plot of the family head Ushiromiya "Goldsmith" Lion and not that of Sayo/Beatrice. On the island plot we are introduced this time to an acting "Kinzo" who decides to sacrifice his whole family in order to "give back all that he owns in return for Beatrice". The idea of "being stopped" is only introduced at the very end when a human Beatrice (not necessarily the witch) and Battler encounter and she demands him remembering his promise and atoning for his sin. This is basically the story of the side of Sayo that has already given up hope for survival and only wants a last bit of gratification before her great family suicide.

Quote:
If however we wonder on a Prime angle on why Eva-Beatrice exists, likely it is because in Tohya's world the culprit isn't Sayo with her Beatrice but Eva. If they think that there's someone behind those mysterious happenings they think it was Eva pretending to be Beatrice, not someone else.
But Eva is not the culprit in Prime, Kyrie and Rudolph are the central killers in prime (I will for semantic reasons refrain from using the word murderer, since their action lacks a lot of the planning that goes with Sayo's idea of murder), yet the narrative of Banquet of the Golden Witch exists as a forgery in Prime.
Remember what Black-Battler said in Forgery No.xxx, he exists because of the many people who long for an explanation in which Ushiromiya Battler is the murderer. Eva-Beato to me is similar, she is an amalgamation of Eva-culprit-theories given shape.

Quote:
Ep 3 was probably structured to create a let's call it 'Sayo's game board' that however would work with the truths and beliefs of Prime.
And yet it didn't work. Which is why I still believe that, if it was created by Ikuko, it was created before the Hachijo's knew the whole scope of the truth.

Quote:
On a sidenote I can't say I exactly loved the idea to introduce Clair as another identity for Sayo but I'm toying with the idea that Clair isn't exacly Sayo but more the personification of 'Confession of the Golden Witch' so she works as Narrator.
That's exactly as I see it and that is why Lion's world can only exist in the confines of the unopened catbox. Lion's world is a world that can connect to the events post 1986 but it is ruled out by the existence of Confession of the Golden Witch, in the form of Clair.

Quote:
Well, for me the piece called Beatrice is always not a real person but the personification of the 'rule' that for every mysterious happening Beatrice is the one that gets blamed.
Yet in EP1 and 2 you can basically equate this: Beatrice killing people=Sayo killing people.

Quote:
While I'm a supporter of the idea MetaBeato exists only in Tohya's mind for me the dialogue between the two Beato is nothing else but a monologue in Sayo's head.
I would agree that it is partly that, but it is also important that this scene extends into the Meta-Parlour. It is MetaBeato who then poses the questions about Battler's identity and this is where the individual planes really start mixing and it becomes a question of who is who, since this MetaBeato is also the one who recedes to the Golden Land in order to be with Maria and cries over her lost chances. So I wouldn't say she exists only in Tohya's mind in the sense that she is only made of Tohya, but also of what Sayo wished for, which becomes very apparent in the EP4 manga:
Sadly these two pages (1 and 2) had a horrible translation done to them...
It should actually be: "Try and stop me (Beatrice's form of me, warawa)! - If you just hadn't returned! - I never wanted to be born! - Can't I love anybody? - Please, whatever the outcome may be, at least in my stories... - ...kill me (Simple form of me also used by Shannon, watashi) - and if not that - you should die!"
What MetaBeato from EP1-5 likely is, is the lingering regret and the sadness of Sayo, kept alive by Tohya's feelings of guilt and him having been unable to do anything. This is for me also why MetaBattler (after he understands) becomes first so intent on giving Beato the happy ending she deserved (by trying to revive her and marry her in EP6) and also gave her eternal rest in EP7.

Oh and concerning a former question that was raised by you I think, I had another look at the EP7 manga and it appears like the order of murders in EP4 is actually supposed to be: Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, the 5 adults in the dining hall, George, Gohda and Kumasawa, Jessica, Maria, and finally Genji.
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Old 2014-06-04, 05:05   Link #34496
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just a quick question according to the the wikia page the witches and furniture where made up character/imaginary friend created by maria and sayo...does that mean none of the witches and furniture exist at all?? but then the whole ange/bern thing doesnt make sense....or is that part of the story battler created about witches existing? i dunno im kinda confused on the whole meta world and the existance of the witches/states of purgatory
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Old 2014-06-04, 07:20   Link #34497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuff View Post
just a quick question according to the the wikia page the witches and furniture where made up character/imaginary friend created by maria and sayo...does that mean none of the witches and furniture exist at all?? but then the whole ange/bern thing doesnt make sense....or is that part of the story battler created about witches existing? i dunno im kinda confused on the whole meta world and the existance of the witches/states of purgatory
This is not an easy question to answer since it is one of the main points of Umineko as a whole to draw the line between truth and fiction into question. There is also no absolute consensus among the fans regarding that topic either, so I can only give you an outline of my ideas (also not wanting to spoil you too much, since you apparently haven't finished EP8 as the VN yet).

As I said, this is according to my personal understanding:
To understand the nature of the witches and demons sorrounding Rokkenjima, we have to question where they stem from. Did Beatrice really start with Sayo imagining her, or didn't it already start with the stories Kinzo and his servants told?! The character of Beatrice has, so to speak, taken on a life of her own, far beyond the confines of one persons imagination, and thus, in a certain way, "exists".
The same goes for Sayo and Maria's magical group of friends, Marriage Sorciere, which later took on darker sides in Sayo's message bottle stories. Since these stories (at least two of them) got spread and copied, and new stories involving them were forged, the characters started "existing" beyond the borders of just her stories.

The question gets a lot more difficult when it comes to Bern, Lambda, or Featherine, since these "Voyagers" and "Theatergoers" exist beyond the confines of one specific gameboard. They are not bound to the catbox that is Rokkenjima.
There are two ways I can see them.
One is the overarching purpose to portray larger "rules" and "ways of thinking", like Bern governing "miracles" and standing in for those who "love to heartlessly rip stories to shreds until only guts remain". This would make Ange's story highly allegorical.
The other is them actually existing, but having no larger influence unto the plane of human existence beyond slightly nudging people in certain directions. In that sense they'd still be a metaphor for authors and readers, basically us, the people with no emotional attachment to the stories we observe.

EDIT:
Since I apparently never added the full translation of chapter 24 (and got my hands on a cheap copy of the February issue of Joker, which will bring us the Interlude chapter as well), I decided to mend that and put the translation for that up for now.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:

Last edited by haguruma; 2014-06-05 at 05:00.
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Old 2014-06-05, 16:55   Link #34498
Becca-chan
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( Hello, I come out of lurking!)

I just want to share something that I was just working on.
It involves the bit with the Book of One Truth, well...the part where it starts telling Ange the truth that is.
I don't know if the number of X's in the text are relevant and if they aren't, just let me know.

The culprits name is comprised of 5 letters, their partner is comprised of 7 letters.

Those with 5 letters in their names are:
Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:



And those with 7 letters in their names are:
Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:


But there is only one in each list that have actually been included in the planning of Sayo's stories...
So filling in the blanks and guessing that the truth-in-question is saying about what really happened in the Gold Room and the after-effects.

Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:


Of course that's just one variation of the outcomes.

Last edited by Becca-chan; 2014-06-05 at 17:06. Reason: Adding more in.
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Old 2014-06-06, 12:14   Link #34499
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Counting letters isn't very helpful considering the original text is in Japanese, which would have a different character count for everyone's names. :P
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Old 2014-06-06, 17:48   Link #34500
fuff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
This is not an easy question to answer since it is one of the main points of Umineko as a whole to draw the line between truth and fiction into question. There is also no absolute consensus among the fans regarding that topic either, so I can only give you an outline of my ideas (also not wanting to spoil you too much, since you apparently haven't finished EP8 as the VN yet).

As I said, this is according to my personal understanding:
To understand the nature of the witches and demons sorrounding Rokkenjima, we have to question where they stem from. Did Beatrice really start with Sayo imagining her, or didn't it already start with the stories Kinzo and his servants told?! The character of Beatrice has, so to speak, taken on a life of her own, far beyond the confines of one persons imagination, and thus, in a certain way, "exists".
The same goes for Sayo and Maria's magical group of friends, Marriage Sorciere, which later took on darker sides in Sayo's message bottle stories. Since these stories (at least two of them) got spread and copied, and new stories involving them were forged, the characters started "existing" beyond the borders of just her stories.

The question gets a lot more difficult when it comes to Bern, Lambda, or Featherine, since these "Voyagers" and "Theatergoers" exist beyond the confines of one specific gameboard. They are not bound to the catbox that is Rokkenjima.
There are two ways I can see them.
One is the overarching purpose to portray larger "rules" and "ways of thinking", like Bern governing "miracles" and standing in for those who "love to heartlessly rip stories to shreds until only guts remain". This would make Ange's story highly allegorical.
The other is them actually existing, but having no larger influence unto the plane of human existence beyond slightly nudging people in certain directions. In that sense they'd still be a metaphor for authors and readers, basically us, the people with no emotional attachment to the stories we observe.

EDIT:
Since I apparently never added the full translation of chapter 24 (and got my hands on a cheap copy of the February issue of Joker, which will bring us the Interlude chapter as well), I decided to mend that and put the translation for that up for now.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:
wow this confusing hahah so basically, its like they were a myth/story first but they started existing?(the furniture,gapp, etc) but as for bern and lamba and featherine they always existed and treated it like a big game?!

this is so confusing! its okay if you spoil it to me haha i looked at wiki about the ending and such expecially after looking at the manga about ange diving to her death after learning the truth because i was like wtf that cant just end it off like that...


another question...i kinda looked that ps3 ending dialogues and it was like battler meet everyone at the end...was this kinda like saying battler passed away?! i dunno kinda confused :S
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