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Old 2014-06-09, 04:35   Link #2321
frivolity
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Been reading some of the spoilers for the latest volume, and it seems that the hypothesis I made in this post 9 months ago was partially correct.

Spoiler for old post:


I suspected as much after reading the synopsis of Connect, but the complete mess that is the latest volume seems to confirm that the author has indeed lost control of the story, and it seems fairly likely that the wheels started coming off during volume 8. The main error in my prediction was that I had originally believed that Yozora was the intended end girl that the story was deviating from, but apparently it's actually Rika.

I had thought that Connect was meant to be a slight correction to flesh out Rika's character, with Yukimura's and Yozora's developments to be left for the last few volumes. If volume 10 is indeed the last volume, however, then that would mean Connect was specifically meant to put the end girl herself back in the driving seat.
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Old 2014-06-09, 05:13   Link #2322
Marcus H.
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and it seems fairly likely that the wheels started coming off during volume 8.
Basically, the end of NEXT was the point where the anime adaptation managed to dodge a bullet? Imagine if they went further; the story would have been a mess because of the need to add elements of Haganai Connect.

By the way, is Connect really important to proceed with the story?
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Old 2014-06-09, 05:22   Link #2323
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Didn't author said that volume 8 or 9 is "end of prologue" and next volume is start of main part of story?
Kinda like Tokage no Ou manga which had 14 chapters of prologue and ending chapter.
Kids, remember: When author says something like this - series will be cancelled soon.
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Old 2014-06-09, 05:58   Link #2324
frivolity
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Basically, the end of NEXT was the point where the anime adaptation managed to dodge a bullet? Imagine if they went further; the story would have been a mess because of the need to add elements of Haganai Connect.

By the way, is Connect really important to proceed with the story?
I should probably start with a caveat that this is only my interpretation of the developments in Haganai. The inferences that I've drawn regarding the author's intentions and so on have not been proven by any means.

Anyway, CONNECT did two important things. First, it gave a more detailed backstory of the previous generation (Sena's parents and Kodaka's parents, as well as the close relationships between the four of them). Second, it added to the main plot itself with the Kodaka-Rika rooftop scene involving flying metal balls and the Yozora running away scene.

My main gripe about CONNECT was that it was written as a side story to support the events in previous volumes, but also contained elements that are important to the main plot itself. I consider this a no-no in creative writing because anything that is important to the plot should be interspersed within the chronology of the main series itself. While side stories are very common in light novel series, such as Toradora with The Palm Top Tiger of Happiness, these side stories merely serve to develop the setting or a few minor characters that are auxiliary to the main plot. The reader can omit the side stories without losing track of the main plot itself. This was not the case with CONNECT, and was what led me to suspect that the author himself might have lost the plot.

As mentioned in my previous post, the author admitted in his Vol 8 notes that he had not intended for Pegasus to play such a major role in the story, which was what precipitated the writing of CONNECT. It follows that the plot point that Pegasus was involved in - Sena's and Kodaka's engagement - did not feature in his original plans. He had not fully thought through the ramifications of adding in such a plot device (e.g: we were never fully told about the relationship between Sena's and Kodaka's parents, which made the engagement plot device come out of left field), which was why CONNECT was needed in order to tie the new developments back to his original plans. This is also how CONNECT received its title - it served to CONNECT the plot devices that he had mishandled .

Anyone who has written multi-chaptered fanfiction would be familiar with the above problem. Every now and then, certain events are written into the story as a shiptease or as a fun detour, but the characters somehow take on lives of their own and end up changing the story to the point that the original plans are no longer feasible. The difference is that earlier chapters of fanfiction can be easily edited for continuity. With published novels, earlier volumes cannot be recalled and rewritten.

The anime adapted the key parts of CONNECT in chronological order with the rest of the story, and left out the history of the older generation. If there were to be a 3rd season, one way to adapt it would be to show the auxiliary parts in the first few episodes and then show the rest of the main plot after that. It would still be very messy though.
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Old 2014-06-09, 07:29   Link #2325
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
I don't think too many overarching inferences can be drawn regarding the direction that the author took with volume 9. I think the events in Haganai are merely partially inspired by his own experiences and used for comedic purposes instead of being a platform for social commentary.

The way I see it, he dug himself into a hole with volume 8 by introducing an unplanned plotpoint regarding Sena and Kodaka's engagement without properly thinking through the implications that such a revelation would have on the dynamics between the members of the club (see the Author's Notes at the back of Connect, where he admitted that Pegasus was not intended to play such an important role).

As such, he had to dig himself out by writing a side story (Connect) to fill in the gaps left behind by previous volumes - a practice that is generally considered bad writing. Side stories that show the reader finer aspects of minor characters or historical trivia are well and good because there is no room for these in the chronology of the main plot. These side stories are usually independent of the main plot, such that the reader will not get lost without reading these side stories. However, Connect is a side story containing events that actually form the basis of later volumes, which to me is indicative that the author had lost control of his story at the end of volume 8 and was forced to take corrective actions.

This leads me back to the question of why the author directed volume 9 in this way. As mentioned above, I interpret it as him having lost control in volume 8, so Connect and volume 9 are part of the corrective steps that he used to bring the story back in line with the original plans by giving Yozora the much-needed development that she needed after Rika's in Connect. Depending on how things play out, we'll probably see a Yukimura-centric volume somewhere down the road, since she is currently lagging behind the others in terms of development.

To add on to shaqpabst's post, one theme that the characters in the Neighbours Club collectively portray is that people of all social strata have problems of their own and all sorts of people can be outcasts, even the popular and successful ones. Whether you're good-looking, highly intelligent, confused about your orientation, highly na´ve, or one who never outgrew your childhood, you still can have problems fitting in. After all, there are always exceptions to the rule. All of the members of the club are, in their own way, equally tragic outcasts who have problems fitting in. The Club is the only place where they can truly let out their actual selves without fear of being accepted.
So I'm just assuming here but the part about the whole kodaka and sena engagement thing being unplanned would make sense, cause that whole thing made it seem like she might win. so if that hadn't of happened and rika had gotten the development she needed in the main story instead of connect it would make sense that she would have came up on top, meaning the author kinda did have a plan no?
In all honesty I'm just trying to understand what the author is thinking cause I didn't expect vol 10 at all. not in the least.
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Old 2014-06-09, 08:22   Link #2326
ID555
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Originally Posted by Somethindarker View Post
The info I got was from a friend but near as I can figure they're all true as most of the spoilers I've mentioned other people have been posting and discussing.
I see. Thx. Oh well... *shrugs*
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Old 2014-06-14, 05:04   Link #2327
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Okay wow IF any of these spoilers are actually true then the author just seems to have resolved to troll as many of the readers as possible and make Kodaka out to be an asshole.

Three largest shipper bases? Sena, Yozora and Rika. So who do we pick? Yukimura...

After confessing to Sena and making her promise to wait for him until after they graduate, stating his reason as not wanting the club to fall apart, then just up and going out with Yuki when she asks him would strongly imply that Kodaka doesn't consider nor want Sena as a friend let alone love her. In fact he just parallels those guys that Sena complains about back in volume one that only show her any attention out of sexual attraction which justifies her jaded viewpoints.

And as if that isn't enough to make him seem like an asshole, he goes out with Yuki WHILE mulling over how he loves Rika? In the same way he loves Sena? Is he just stringing Yuki along? I feel bad for Yuki and seriously question the value of Kodaka's love.

Also no one has mentioned this yet but do any of the other girls know about his "confession" to Sena? If so then how in the hell did they respond to Kodaka doing this? Is this what Sena's outburst in class is about that causes her and Yozora to become friends? Unified against a common enemy...

I'd like to believe that this is all BS trolling but if it really isn't then just... wow... nice way to feck up your own novel there :/
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Old 2014-06-14, 09:51   Link #2328
ID555
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Originally Posted by MacMeaties View Post
Okay wow IF any of these spoilers are actually true then the author just seems to have resolved to troll as many of the readers as possible and make Kodaka out to be an asshole.

Three largest shipper bases? Sena, Yozora and Rika. So who do we pick? Yukimura...

After confessing to Sena and making her promise to wait for him until after they graduate, stating his reason as not wanting the club to fall apart, then just up and going out with Yuki when she asks him would strongly imply that Kodaka doesn't consider nor want Sena as a friend let alone love her. In fact he just parallels those guys that Sena complains about back in volume one that only show her any attention out of sexual attraction which justifies her jaded viewpoints.

And as if that isn't enough to make him seem like an asshole, he goes out with Yuki WHILE mulling over how he loves Rika? In the same way he loves Sena? Is he just stringing Yuki along? I feel bad for Yuki and seriously question the value of Kodaka's love.

Also no one has mentioned this yet but do any of the other girls know about his "confession" to Sena? If so then how in the hell did they respond to Kodaka doing this? Is this what Sena's outburst in class is about that causes her and Yozora to become friends? Unified against a common enemy...

I'd like to believe that this is all BS trolling but if it really isn't then just... wow... nice way to feck up your own novel there :/

Yeah I agree it is pretty a**holish. Usually you actually date that person for a while before deciding.

"I think I'll have the chicken. I love chicken."
"No, actually I prefer fish."
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Old 2014-06-14, 13:47   Link #2329
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Yeah I agree it is pretty a**holish. Usually you actually date that person for a while before deciding.

"I think I'll have the chicken. I love chicken."
"No, actually I prefer fish, but I'll go with the pasta instead."
Fixed to go with MacMeaties's scenario...
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Old 2014-06-14, 23:54   Link #2330
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Old 2014-06-15, 01:41   Link #2331
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Originally Posted by MacMeaties View Post
Okay wow IF any of these spoilers are actually true then the author just seems to have resolved to troll as many of the readers as possible and make Kodaka out to be an asshole.

Three largest shipper bases? Sena, Yozora and Rika. So who do we pick? Yukimura...

After confessing to Sena and making her promise to wait for him until after they graduate, stating his reason as not wanting the club to fall apart, then just up and going out with Yuki when she asks him would strongly imply that Kodaka doesn't consider nor want Sena as a friend let alone love her. In fact he just parallels those guys that Sena complains about back in volume one that only show her any attention out of sexual attraction which justifies her jaded viewpoints.

And as if that isn't enough to make him seem like an asshole, he goes out with Yuki WHILE mulling over how he loves Rika? In the same way he loves Sena? Is he just stringing Yuki along? I feel bad for Yuki and seriously question the value of Kodaka's love.

Also no one has mentioned this yet but do any of the other girls know about his "confession" to Sena? If so then how in the hell did they respond to Kodaka doing this? Is this what Sena's outburst in class is about that causes her and Yozora to become friends? Unified against a common enemy...

I'd like to believe that this is all BS trolling but if it really isn't then just... wow... nice way to feck up your own novel there :/
Too be fair Yukimura caught him by surprise and he probably just said it without realizing it. The real question becomes if he decides to set things straight or do the "honorable" thing and stick to his word.
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Old 2014-06-15, 09:27   Link #2332
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Well pretty much either way he looks like a douche.

If he chooses Rika, he lied to both Sena and Yukimura
If he choses Sena, then it'd make sense that he was just in shock
If he choses Yuki, then he basically lied to Sena.
And if he choses Yozora (that'll be one outta left field at this point), same as Rika

But regardless who he choses, it won't be pretty for the others.

(Still calling School Days ending )
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Old 2014-06-15, 12:03   Link #2333
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Hirasaka Yomi's comments:
http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-24672.html



Did he just said "It doesn't matter who Kodaka ends up with?", really?
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Old 2014-06-15, 12:10   Link #2334
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Yeah I agree it is pretty a**holish. Usually you actually date that person for a while before deciding.

"I think I'll have the chicken. I love chicken."
"No, actually I prefer fish."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
Fixed to go with MacMeaties's scenario...
No. It's closer to-

"Hmm... The chicken looks good... But I DO love fish... Oh you already charged me for the pasta... Fuck it."

Yozora wanted Taka back she was just confused by her desperation to relive her best memories with him, Yukimura is in love with his mystique of the ideal man not the real Kodaka who's smart, dorky and thoughtful. Sena wanted Kodaka because he's the first person to treat her like a person instead of a princess and Rika is the only one who saw through all the bullshit to see the real person Kodaka is and still wants him. Sena and Rika are the only two people who had a shot from the beginning. People who thought Hinata and Aoi had a shot were reaching, hard, they don't know the real Kodaka from the beginning the only two contenders were Sena and Rika.

Yukimura blindsided him and her stern innocence caught him off guard and acted without thinking, who can blame him, he's in love with Rika and has very strong feelings for Sena. You guys are making him out to be some cold-hearted player who intentionally thinks nothing of the feelings of the girls. If anything it's the exact opposite. He purposely stopped himself, ALOT, from responding to the feelings of any of the girls. His one moment of weakness came after a girl, who he's said is incredibly attractive to him and an ideal girl, pinned him up against a wall and kissed him for a loong time. It's completely natural he'd respond without thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Hirasaka Yomi's comments:
http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-24672.html



Did he just said "It doesn't matter who Kodaka ends up with?", really?
This is "Boku wa tomodachi ga sakunai" not "Boku wa/ga(?) koi? Desu ka?" I agree with him completely. For us who gets with Kodaka matters, for the actual story... not so much. Honestly I can relate to the author read some of his twitter, blog and afterwords. The story from his mind to books had too many cooks and mix that with the illness and it's understandable that he'd rush a finish. Hopefully someday when he gets better we'd get another series with references to the characters or maybe a some short stories.

Spoiler:


The story is from Rika's point of view and from what I've gathered from volume 10 ends on an optimistic note before the blindside with Yukimura of course.
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Old 2014-06-15, 17:19   Link #2335
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I would like to agree but the author brought the love issue himself, now as a professional he has to deal with the issue and take responsibility.

I don't mind Yukimura but I demand a proper closure for Sena which the author dug himself hard. Of course part of me wants Sena to win after she had the guts to tell her feelings and endure the wait Kodaka asked her.
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Old 2014-06-15, 18:16   Link #2336
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I would like to agree but the author brought the love issue himself, now as a professional he has to deal with the issue and take responsibility.

I don't mind Yukimura but I demand a proper closure for Sena which the author dug himself hard. Of course part of me wants Sena to win after she had the guts to tell her feelings and endure the wait Kodaka asked her.
I agree with you for the most part, but the game isn't quite over. Sena could still win Kodaka because Yukimura only got a yes because of the surprise attack. Then again Kodaka did pretty much say he's in love with Rika which, as said earlier, Rika is the only person in the cast to refer to herself as "boku" so the story is from her point of view. Personally I'd be happy if either won although I'm pulling for Rika a bit more.
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Old 2014-06-15, 19:06   Link #2337
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I'd chalk it up, again, to my theory that the author lost control of the plot in volume 8. By having BOTH Sena's confession and engagement in the same volume, he ended up changing the entire story irreversibly. The subsequent novels then had to be modified in order to accommodate the new plotline because such a major development meant that the romantic subplot could no longer be swept under the carpet as was done in previous volumes.

Having chosen to go in this direction, the author cannot then turn around and claim that the story is about friendship and not romance. That may have been true in the earlier volumes, but it certainly isn't true anymore. This isn't fanfiction - where authors can edit and reupload previous chapters that veered off course - it's a published work, whereby the author has to proceed with whatever has already been published, regardless of whether or not he intended for the story to take a particular turn.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that authors should decide early on what kind of approach they want to take with their stories. If they intend to stick resolutely to a pre-arranged plot, then do it and don't change the story for external reasons such as popularity, social pressure, etc. If they intend to make up the plot as they go along and let the characters take control, then go all the way with it by giving them free reign with very minimal restrictions for the sake of advancing the overall plot outline.

And if the characters you create are so real that there are signs of them starting to wrest control out of your hands, then make the decision to stick with the plot or let it go completely. But do not make a half-hearted choice to let your characters take control of the story then subsequently turn around and try to reign them back in because it will only lead to an absolute mess that pleases nobody - not even the author himself.
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Old 2014-06-16, 05:10   Link #2338
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I'd chalk it up, again, to my theory that the author lost control of the plot in volume 8. By having BOTH Sena's confession and engagement in the same volume, he ended up changing the entire story irreversibly. The subsequent novels then had to be modified in order to accommodate the new plotline because such a major development meant that the romantic subplot could no longer be swept under the carpet as was done in previous volumes.

Having chosen to go in this direction, the author cannot then turn around and claim that the story is about friendship and not romance. That may have been true in the earlier volumes, but it certainly isn't true anymore. This isn't fanfiction - where authors can edit and reupload previous chapters that veered off course - it's a published work, whereby the author has to proceed with whatever has already been published, regardless of whether or not he intended for the story to take a particular turn.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that authors should decide early on what kind of approach they want to take with their stories. If they intend to stick resolutely to a pre-arranged plot, then do it and don't change the story for external reasons such as popularity, social pressure, etc. If they intend to make up the plot as they go along and let the characters take control, then go all the way with it by giving them free reign with very minimal restrictions for the sake of advancing the overall plot outline.

And if the characters you create are so real that there are signs of them starting to wrest control out of your hands, then make the decision to stick with the plot or let it go completely. But do not make a half-hearted choice to let your characters take control of the story then subsequently turn around and try to reign them back in because it will only lead to an absolute mess that pleases nobody - not even the author himself.
To me the story was going where it was going. Kodaka finally admitted that the club members have been friends all along even if they don't want to admit it themselves. The next chapters, before the illness, were probably gonna cover what I mentioned earlier and how the girls were gonna handle liking the same guy.

This about "the characters wrestling control of the story" is just an excuse for poor story planning and execution people make for the writers. The story was going in a certain direction and their was a plan before the author for whatever reason decided to call it quits. Romance was always second to the overall story so the author saying it doesn't matter who Kodaka chooses makes sense.
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Old 2014-06-16, 05:39   Link #2339
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To me the story was going where it was going. Kodaka finally admitted that the club members have been friends all along even if they don't want to admit it themselves. The next chapters, before the illness, were probably gonna cover what I mentioned earlier and how the girls were gonna handle liking the same guy.

This about "the characters wrestling control of the story" is just an excuse for poor story planning and execution people make for the writers. The story was going in a certain direction and their was a plan before the author for whatever reason decided to call it quits. Romance was always second to the overall story so the author saying it doesn't matter who Kodaka chooses makes sense.
Volume 8 occurred far before the author's illness, and that was the point where the wheels started coming off. The author's notes for Connect also indicated that the story was not going exactly as the author intended, since he admitted that Pegasus was not supposed to take on such a big role in his original plans. It can thus be inferred that the plotline Pegasus was most recently involved in (the engagement) was unintended. Connect, as I've argued in my previous posts, was an absolute mess in terms of plot progression, and I would argue that it mostly served as damage control after the unintended turn that the author made in volume 8.

My argument is that the poor quality of the latest volume cannot be attributed solely to the author's illness, though it had a hand in it. The primary reason for the current plot is because the author dug himself into a hole with earlier volumes and lost control of the story. Where the illness comes in is that it makes it difficult for him to dig his way out. So yes, there was a plan, but the author already deviated away from it by introducing the romance aspects of the plot and overdeveloping it. As such, my view is that the story isn't going where it was meant to go. What the author said about Kodaka's choice being immaterial would have made sense before volume 8 and Connect, but it no longer holds now.

"Characters wrestling control of the story" does actually happen in various media, such as manga and printed books. In this case, my point was that the author allowed the characters to develop in an unintended direction but tried to regain control of them, so it is certainly not an excuse that I am making for the author of this story - I am, in fact, calling him out and criticising him on it! Authors of other printed media have admitted to changing the plots of their stories because of unintended character developments, fan popularity, or even self-fulfilment. In the case of light novels, it is often not practical to plan the entire story from the get go because light novel sales are extremely volatile and most authors cannot predict with certainty whether a particular series will take off. It makes much more practical sense for authors to only have a general framework and make up the story as they go along depending on how popular the series is. If the series is unpopular, they need to have a checkpoint that can serve as an ending. If the series is extremely popular, they have to be prepared to extend the story beyond their original plans.
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Old 2014-06-16, 09:08   Link #2340
Somethindarker
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Volume 8 occurred far before the author's illness, and that was the point where the wheels started coming off. The author's notes for Connect also indicated that the story was not going exactly as the author intended, since he admitted that Pegasus was not supposed to take on such a big role in his original plans. It can thus be inferred that the plotline Pegasus was most recently involved in (the engagement) was unintended. Connect, as I've argued in my previous posts, was an absolute mess in terms of plot progression, and I would argue that it mostly served as damage control after the unintended turn that the author made in volume 8.

My argument is that the poor quality of the latest volume cannot be attributed solely to the author's illness, though it had a hand in it. The primary reason for the current plot is because the author dug himself into a hole with earlier volumes and lost control of the story. Where the illness comes in is that it makes it difficult for him to dig his way out. So yes, there was a plan, but the author already deviated away from it by introducing the romance aspects of the plot and overdeveloping it. As such, my view is that the story isn't going where it was meant to go. What the author said about Kodaka's choice being immaterial would have made sense before volume 8 and Connect, but it no longer holds now.

"Characters wrestling control of the story" does actually happen in various media, such as manga and printed books. In this case, my point was that the author allowed the characters to develop in an unintended direction but tried to regain control of them, so it is certainly not an excuse that I am making for the author of this story - I am, in fact, calling him out and criticising him on it! Authors of other printed media have admitted to changing the plots of their stories because of unintended character developments, fan popularity, or even self-fulfilment. In the case of light novels, it is often not practical to plan the entire story from the get go because light novel sales are extremely volatile and most authors cannot predict with certainty whether a particular series will take off. It makes much more practical sense for authors to only have a general framework and make up the story as they go along depending on how popular the series is. If the series is unpopular, they need to have a checkpoint that can serve as an ending. If the series is extremely popular, they have to be prepared to extend the story beyond their original plans.
Agreed. Which is a shame really because as of before volume 8 Sena was winning by ALOT not only in popularity but in character development then he goes and brings out the big guns with Rika and the Yozora thing ends up backfiring on him and now we the audience are left completely confused. Which in and of itself is a good thing because it keeps us guessing but volume 9 and 10 didn't steer the plot in any clear direction which is a big no no. Yukimura "getting" Kodaka for now came out of no where especially with Kodaka's internal monologue about Rika. Just end this please.
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