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Old 2014-06-06, 20:07   Link #34501
AuraTwilight
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Basically, the Meta-World seems to be a plane of existence where imaginary things are true. Who can speak on where Bern and Lambda came from, but they've been around a lot longer. Beatrice and her furniture are imaginary concepts created on Rokkenjima, but at the same time they exist in the Meta-World, and might have always been there. At the same time, the written stories and gameboards of Rokkenjima exist as alternate universes there.

The Meta-World basically seems to be a place where everything is real and nothing is fiction.
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Old 2014-06-07, 14:21   Link #34502
Becca-chan
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Counting letters isn't very helpful considering the original text is in Japanese, which would have a different character count for everyone's names. :P
Ack! sorry, e-heh though maybe that's just as well.
I was pretty freaked out when I was trying to come up with those variations.

Maria as the culprit...as if she couldn't be creepy already.
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Old 2014-06-09, 06:30   Link #34503
haguruma
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Originally Posted by Becca-chan View Post
Ack! sorry, e-heh though maybe that's just as well.
I was pretty freaked out when I was trying to come up with those variations.

Maria as the culprit...as if she couldn't be creepy already.
Well, I was trying to keep it as close as possible to what we see in this rendition of the BotOT.
In the Japanese version it is **が犯人ッ!! **がッ***がッ**を殺したッ!**を**を**を***をッ!!!, which means the culprit has two Kanji (戦人、霧江、絵羽、秀吉、譲治、蔵臼、夏妃、楼座、紗音、観音、金蔵、源次、南條、熊沢、郷田 ), and one person with two Kanji and one person with three (留弗夫、朱志香、真里亞) Kanji killed a person with two, another three with two and one with three Kanji.

On another note, I got the February issue of Joker and the Interlude chapter in my mail yesterday. The chapter isn't that long and there's not that much new content that I'd rank it as interesting as CotGW or the last few main chapters, but it still delivers a good idea what life was like for the Hachijs and an approximate indication of time scales.

Spoiler for EP8 Interlude:


From what it sounds and looks like, I'd say that Tya lived with Ikuko quite a while before the topic of Rokkenjima even came up. The way the chapter depicts Ikuko also makes it fairly unlikely that she is Sayo...or Sayo has an actual problem with multiple personalities (or is the biggest dick in the world to everybody including herself). I mean, why would she spent YEARS with the person she loves, make him a completely new person, only to spring the incident on him almost a decade later.
I'd say the events sorrounding the uncorking of CotGW don't happen until around 1993-95 for several factors. The chapter depicts a long line of scene-to-scene panels, depicting Ikuko and Tya growing close over an extended period of time, the internet-article clearly mentions the inheritance towards Ange and Eva's death (which apparently only became a central thing when Ange was already in her teens), also internet itself only became a thing in the early 90s and wasn't commonly available until the mid 90s in Japan.

I also find it interesting how Tya faints before he can apparently read CotGW and that only Ikuko has read it at that point.
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Old 2014-06-09, 14:45   Link #34504
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Upon reading this part I thought it was incredibly interesting

Quote:
From a psychological perspective
men do it for social standing, or fame, or even to make a lover forever theirs,
women do it to escape from somebody who keeps them bound
and most undiscriminate killers do it out of a suicide wish,
they recreate themselves in a way that they are worthy of death and commit murder to give themselves determination to end it.
While we already knew beforehand that Sayo had gender issues, Ikukko was able to identify almost all of his/her motives and assign a gender towards each motive. Even ignoring the gender issues, she identified how Sayo made herself into a culprit, so the murder-suicide looks justified.

This is especially odd, when judging by the narrative it looks like to confession bottle hasn't been opened yet (assuming she was going to open it with Tohya. Without the images it's hard to tell.)

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I also find it interesting how Tya faints before he can apparently read CotGW and that only Ikuko has read it at that point.
Nevermind, it looks as though Ikuko did read the book, judging by your description.

Incidentally, as my 2nd post here, I wanted to thank you for bringing us up to date with manga translations, I'm sure everybody greatly appreciates it.

Last edited by Void_Heart; 2014-06-09 at 15:43.
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Old 2014-06-09, 20:15   Link #34505
DaBackpack
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I seem to have fallen behind on the out-of-VN canon... So I've read the games and various TIP translations, but does someone have a list of the other canon works like this "CotGW"? Or are these mostly just from the manga?
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Old 2014-06-09, 20:38   Link #34506
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Originally Posted by Void_Heart View Post
This is especially odd, when judging by the narrative it looks like to confession bottle hasn't been opened yet (assuming she was going to open it with Tohya. Without the images it's hard to tell.)
I will try to make some pictures, when looking at them it's clear that Ikuko opened the bottle after Tya fell asleep. She is basically a different person after he wakes up, totally obsessed with the Rokkenjima incident. That is why she says that she had "wanted to read it together" and that it s not a forgery but more like the confession from the end of And Then There Were None.

I found that interesting as I said, since Tya faints without having read the confession (as it seems) and without completely remembering Ange (but having flashes when reading her name in internet articles). So if we wanted to place a point where the meta-Beatrice of the first few games started, that could be here.

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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I seem to have fallen behind on the out-of-VN canon... So I've read the games and various TIP translations, but does someone have a list of the other canon works like this "CotGW"? Or are these mostly just from the manga?
It's just manga information. The last two EP7 chapters delivered the solution of the first 4 games as in the VN but with more information both in pictures and text, and the EP8 manga has been a completely revised version of the VN, adding much more content in.
Confession of the Golden Witch (CotGW) is a bonus-story which ran in the March till May issue of GANGAN-Joker and showed the whole content of Sayo's confession found by Ikuko in the Interlude chapter. You can find links to my translation posts on the current last page of the manga thread.
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Old 2014-06-10, 00:46   Link #34507
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I will try to make some pictures, when looking at them it's clear that Ikuko opened the bottle after Tya fell asleep. She is basically a different person after he wakes up, totally obsessed with the Rokkenjima incident. That is why she says that she had "wanted to read it together" and that it s not a forgery but more like the confession from the end of And Then There Were None.
If you provide pictures, that would be great! Since you gave us a description stating that Confessions was already opened, you've already clarified it for me. Thank you.

That does leave to wonder, why the sudden difference after he woke up? Is it possible that Ikuko knew who Tohya was by that point?

P.S. What is the correct spelling for Tohya? I'm getting different variations everywhere I go.

Last edited by Void_Heart; 2014-06-10 at 00:51. Reason: Spelling Errors
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Old 2014-06-10, 07:12   Link #34508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Void_Heart View Post
That does leave to wonder, why the sudden difference after he woke up? Is it possible that Ikuko knew who Tohya was by that point?
Well, even if we consider that this must have taken place sometime in the 90s, there is still a good 2-4 years to go until Ange will leave on her journey in 1998 and we get to Featherikuko...
We also have the VN info that the knowledge of his true identity and the truth of Rokkenjima drove Tya to the brink of suicide...we will see if this is further explored in the manga, but that could imply that he was actually not telling Ikuko anything about the truth either. Though her ability to speak in Red that Eva's diary contains the truth implies that Tya told her something or that she puzzled it together.

But with Tya actually changing after remembering the truth and keeping things even from Ikuko it could explain the plot of Chiru a lot better.

Quote:
P.S. What is the correct spelling for Tohya? I'm getting different variations everywhere I go.
Well, the correct spelling is 十八 (とおや), simply taking the Kana this is to-o-ya, but it is pronounced Tohya with a long O. Other ways of writing include Tya (which is the system used at most universities) or Tooya (which could confuse English-speakers into calling him Tuhya).
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Old 2014-06-10, 09:41   Link #34509
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But with Tya actually changing after remembering the truth and keeping things even from Ikuko it could explain the plot of Chiru a lot better.
That does make sense, if the time-frame fits.

Originally, I was referring to Ikuko's change after reading confessions. What changed her, not Tya?

My confusion regarding this is centered around these:


Who has access to Legend and Turn?

If we have Confessions, If Meta Battler is Tya, the why struggle with those two, before writing the others, given that he had an answer book in the real world at the time?

Did Tya write End of The Golden Witch, after reading Confessions, or before and altered it after knowing the truth?

Last edited by Void_Heart; 2014-06-10 at 09:43. Reason: Clarification
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Old 2014-06-10, 11:14   Link #34510
haguruma
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Originally Posted by Void_Heart View Post
That does make sense, if the time-frame fits.

Originally, I was referring to Ikuko's change after reading confessions. What changed her, not Tya?
Well, the Interlude clearly depicts her as being obsessed to a very creepy degree with the Rokkenjima incident. To her this bottle seems to be like a drug, pure entertainment...her first instinct is considering that a forgery author is living close to them and only as a second thought does she consider it being the real deal.

Quote:
Who has access to Legend and Turn?
Well, tsuki said that he had seen the original message bottles and it is likely that their content circulated the internet somehow. Ikuko had already read about the incident and talked about it with Tya...at least about it being a thing. So one can assume that a general outline of Legend and Turn can be found on the internet (especially if it's already 8~10 years later).

Quote:
If we have Confessions, If Meta Battler is Tya, the why struggle with those two, before writing the others, given that he had an answer book in the real world at the time?
The question is if and when he read CotGW, the chapter ends with him loosing his consciousness, so a lot is still possible, I think we have to wait on what actually the manga tells us from here on onward.
He has an answer book in a way, but it doesn't really answer the question what happened on the island, especially if he doesn't really remember the events of that day.

Right now it appears almost as if EP1-5 happened in Tya's head even before he actually had a chance to read Confession.

Quote:
Did Tya write End of The Golden Witch, after reading Confessions, or before and altered it after knowing the truth?
Well, if we take the Meta story into account, this is a story neither written by Beato nor Battler. This implies to me that this might also actually be a story found on the internet that Tya tried tackeling.
The scene where he lies defeated and a ghostly Beato comes and saves him could as well be him reading Confession...or figuring it out before actually reading it.
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Old 2014-06-10, 14:07   Link #34511
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, I was trying to keep it as close as possible to what we see in this rendition of the BotOT.
In the Japanese version it is **が犯人ッ!! **がッ***がッ**を殺したッ!**を**を**を***をッ!!!, which means the culprit has two Kanji (戦人、霧江、絵羽、秀吉、譲治、蔵臼、夏妃、楼座、紗音、観音、金蔵、源次、南條、熊沢、郷田 ), and one person with two Kanji and one person with three (留弗夫、朱志香、真里亞) Kanji killed a person with two, another three with two and one with three Kanji.

On another note, I got the February issue of Joker and the Interlude chapter in my mail yesterday. The chapter isn't that long and there's not that much new content that I'd rank it as interesting as CotGW or the last few main chapters, but it still delivers a good idea what life was like for the Hachijs and an approximate indication of time scales.

Spoiler for EP8 Interlude:


From what it sounds and looks like, I'd say that Tya lived with Ikuko quite a while before the topic of Rokkenjima even came up. The way the chapter depicts Ikuko also makes it fairly unlikely that she is Sayo...or Sayo has an actual problem with multiple personalities (or is the biggest dick in the world to everybody including herself). I mean, why would she spent YEARS with the person she loves, make him a completely new person, only to spring the incident on him almost a decade later.
I'd say the events sorrounding the uncorking of CotGW don't happen until around 1993-95 for several factors. The chapter depicts a long line of scene-to-scene panels, depicting Ikuko and Tya growing close over an extended period of time, the internet-article clearly mentions the inheritance towards Ange and Eva's death (which apparently only became a central thing when Ange was already in her teens), also internet itself only became a thing in the early 90s and wasn't commonly available until the mid 90s in Japan.

I also find it interesting how Tya faints before he can apparently read CotGW and that only Ikuko has read it at that point.
You're awesome for all those translations!
Is there any chance you'll feel like translating also the past/future chapters?

The manga is revealing itself so much better than the VN I can't really wait to know what it says in details... though I'll understand if you'll say no as it's a lot of work and I understend it would be asking too much.

I'm sort of impressed by how I'm liking Ep 8 manga version though. For me Ep 8 VN version wasn't that great but in it's manga version it's one of my fave!


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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Having reread it today, I would say that EP4 is inherently different from EP1 and 2 as well though, since it basically centralizes the plot of the family head Ushiromiya "Goldsmith" Lion and not that of Sayo/Beatrice. On the island plot we are introduced this time to an acting "Kinzo" who decides to sacrifice his whole family in order to "give back all that he owns in return for Beatrice". The idea of "being stopped" is only introduced at the very end when a human Beatrice (not necessarily the witch) and Battler encounter and she demands him remembering his promise and atoning for his sin. This is basically the story of the side of Sayo that has already given up hope for survival and only wants a last bit of gratification before her great family suicide.
Yes, which is quite ironical in a way as Battler hardly has any chance to stop her or solve things beyond assuming for some mysterious reason people agreed to lie to him in their most natural way before being killed.

In a way it resembles murder on the Orient Express, where everybody lies, but on the opposite side it's much harder to think people would agree lying in such way and then be killed just the same.

I guess part of what makes Umineko hard for me is that there are some things I find hard to believe. Sure, the author in the end confirmed we should just swallow them and I do but my feelings don't reall waver much. I still find it hard to believe. Maybe in some cases I'm missing something in my understanding of the characters.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But Eva is not the culprit in Prime, Kyrie and Rudolph are the central killers in prime (I will for semantic reasons refrain from using the word murderer, since their action lacks a lot of the planning that goes with Sayo's idea of murder), yet the narrative of Banquet of the Golden Witch exists as a forgery in Prime.
Remember what Black-Battler said in Forgery No.xxx, he exists because of the many people who long for an explanation in which Ushiromiya Battler is the murderer. Eva-Beato to me is similar, she is an amalgamation of Eva-culprit-theories given shape.
Yes, but I thought that Banquet was written trying to mix together the fact we're on Sayo's gameboard with the belief many in Prime had that Eva was the killer... a theory Tohya might have embraced as he apparently doesn't remember much of what had happened even after years and in the beginning he remembered even less. Ergo he assumed Sayo started her game but then something went wrong and Eva ended up playing an unplanned role.

Because it's true it looks like Maria lead Rosa outside on purpose but the way Rosa and Maria were murdered made it look more like an incident during an argument (Rosa) and an istinctive act to cover up what had happened (Maria) than a planned murder.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And yet it didn't work. Which is why I still believe that, if it was created by Ikuko, it was created before the Hachijo's knew the whole scope of the truth.
Well, it works with the theory that Eva is the culprit that everyone was embracing in Prime. It doesn't work with the truth that it was actually Rudolf and Kyrie who did most of the killing though. But as you said very likely back then the Hachijos didn't know the full truth.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yet in EP1 and 2 you can basically equate this: Beatrice killing people=Sayo killing people.
Because it's Sayo the ones who orchestrates almost all the mysterious things that happen (though in Ep 2 Genji too did his share of killing).
In Ep 3 instead Eva ended up causing facts about which she wanted to push the blame on Beatrice so things got messed up.
This however made harder to figure out what's behind Sayo's actions in Ep 3.
If we assume that Eva rightfully solved the epitaph then according to Confession Sayo should have stopped murdering people and started serving Eva. So it could work she kept pretending of being dead and murders were carried out by Eva & Co but then it becomes harder to figure why Sayo ended up breaking her own rules and killing George, something Eva surely didn't want as she might have killed Nanjo to please Eva but George? Unless George committed suicide which I doubt Sayo should have no reason to kill him even if he were to discover she faked her own death. Also this would imply, as Eva doesn't suspect Sayo, that Eva doesn't know she was pretending to be dead.

The other option is that Eva didn't solve the epitaph but was handed the solution in exchange of her playing the role of accomplice (in Our Confession we see Beatrice showing Krauss and Natsuhi the gold... maybe she did the same here?) but had to keep her allegiance with Sayo as a secret so when Rosa becomes a threat to it she has a argument with her and ends up killing her and Maria which causes Kyrie to grow suspicious and so on.
Meanwhile as no one has solved the epitaph yet Sayo can decide to go around and kill people as well.

Honestly, I liked more how the solutions for Ep 5 & 6 were handed than how Umineko handed the solutions for Ep 1, 2, 3 & 4... but maybe they'll be discussed in the battle between Bern and Battler? Can a girl hope?

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I would agree that it is partly that, but it is also important that this scene extends into the Meta-Parlour. It is MetaBeato who then poses the questions about Battler's identity and this is where the individual planes really start mixing and it becomes a question of who is who, since this MetaBeato is also the one who recedes to the Golden Land in order to be with Maria and cries over her lost chances. So I wouldn't say she exists only in Tohya's mind in the sense that she is only made of Tohya, but also of what Sayo wished for, which becomes very apparent in the EP4 manga:
Sadly these two pages (1 and 2) had a horrible translation done to them...
It should actually be: "Try and stop me (Beatrice's form of me, warawa)! - If you just hadn't returned! - I never wanted to be born! - Can't I love anybody? - Please, whatever the outcome may be, at least in my stories... - ...kill me (Simple form of me also used by Shannon, watashi) - and if not that - you should die!"
What MetaBeato from EP1-5 likely is, is the lingering regret and the sadness of Sayo, kept alive by Tohya's feelings of guilt and him having been unable to do anything. This is for me also why MetaBattler (after he understands) becomes first so intent on giving Beato the happy ending she deserved (by trying to revive her and marry her in EP6) and also gave her eternal rest in EP7.
It can be. It can also be they reflected Tohya's doubts about his identity and his role. In Ep 5 too he questions if it's possible he's the culprit. Meta Battler talks about the gameboards but it's possible Tohya was afraid about being responsible of something in Prime that wasn't just... inspiring Sayo to play a realistic murder game. Honestly without knowing all the details interpreting the meta, although always interesting, sometimes feels like trying to interpret dreams. How much of Tohya's fears are reflected in the Meta? Which knowledge did he had at the time?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Oh and concerning a former question that was raised by you I think, I had another look at the EP7 manga and it appears like the order of murders in EP4 is actually supposed to be: Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, the 5 adults in the dining hall, George, Gohda and Kumasawa, Jessica, Maria, and finally Genji.
Oh, thank you so much. I thought the murder of the first 6 was the first murder to take place as it was the first thing the scans showed, just after saying something along the line of everyone working to trick Battler.
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Old 2014-06-20, 09:12   Link #34512
Ayu-ayu
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In episode 3, the problem was Eva kept it secret that she solved the epitaph, and Sayo was forced to find ways to incorporate the new killings into her narrative without knowing why they had started.

She didn't figure it out until too late, and left the pin number behind to be found after she finally did. You can't stop the ritual by solving the epitaph if Sayo doesn't know you solved it...

Similarly Eva didn't know what Sayo's game was, and was genuinely alarmed and confused when she came back to the mansion to find the scene altered to have the stakes added. She saw the shootout as it really happened, and had her own cover story, but then this...?!

---

As for episode 8 and the manga, I'm still skeptical about how the Ikuko/Tohya story is being presented...I won't rule out taking it at face value, but it just feels like too many coincidences and hints that there's another layer as yet unrevealed. It might not be Ikuko=Yasu, but I still expect some more layers all the same.

I do like the parallels in the manga (and prior "Our Confessions") releases to the actual "simulating And Then There Were None" scenario and meta-scenario. We had our unexplained Island Mystery, and now, years later, the bottles are washing up on the shore...

I almost wonder if, also in parallel, the manga version of Ikuko WILL decide to reveal the diary contents to the public this time around, while the former Ikuko in the VN represented R07's own desire to keep the mystery in the catbox for the time being... as it is, we've seen Sayo's (or is that R07's again?) desire to have her catbox fantasy world expanded on in so many directions by all us goats since then, both in-game and beyond.

Metaverses within Metaverses.
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Old 2014-06-23, 08:30   Link #34513
haguruma
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It's that time of the month again...
Yes, the next chapter of EP8 is out, and while it doesn't deliver AS MUCH new content as the last few chapters brought us, it does bring some new light into things and especially makes the characters (AGAIN) better written, more streamlined and less plot-holey all throughout their development.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 26:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
I won't rule out taking it at face value, but it just feels like too many coincidences and hints that there's another layer as yet unrevealed. It might not be Ikuko=Yasu, but I still expect some more layers all the same.
Well, the manga is kind of putting up Ikuko more as an unsuspecting outsider who ends up unwillingly becoming the villain to the story (aside from the fantasy-plot)...I do wonder how that will all turn around.
Ch26 now pretty much already set up the "I'm not Battler anymore and knowing all this I can impossibly face that girl" plot for the final Tohya reveal. Also, Lambda saying that Ange is a spirit body kind of leads me to the idea again that ALL of the Episodes are more or less fiction (as, the stories seen through the eyes of Battler and Ange) and that really only the Tea Parties or ??? elements take us a little outside of it. Not that the events of Ange's life in EP4 wouldn't be true, but they would be as much of a could-have-been scenario as the island-plots (both just minus the fantasy sparkles).

Quote:
I almost wonder if, also in parallel, the manga version of Ikuko WILL decide to reveal the diary contents to the public this time around
Looking at how the plot is made up it is quite unlikely that she'll actually reveal it, because it'd be like the villains winning. But I do wonder if it will be inserted a little bit more gracefully into the story as well...not just "Oh, my meta-self has just seen something moving...let's change reality!"
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Old 2014-06-27, 18:40   Link #34514
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's that time of the month again...
Yes, the next chapter of EP8 is out, and while it doesn't deliver AS MUCH new content as the last few chapters brought us, it does bring some new light into things and especially makes the characters (AGAIN) better written, more streamlined and less plot-holey all throughout their development.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 26:
First of all: THANK YOU A LOT FOR THE TRANSLATION!
Since I couldn't find spoilers for Ep 7 & 8 I was thinking they just skipped this month of Umineko on the magazines...

Also yes, again the manga did a better job.
Eva admitted she didn't do it merely because she's a pure soul but also for her self preservation which makes her less victim and more... well, Eva.

I like how Beato reproached Battler for making such a messy game (I've noticed the irony of the whole 'ehy Beato you made your game too confusing so that's bad... but who cares less make mine even more confusing') even if honestly, in the manga Battler seemed to be a lot more pushy than willing to accept that Ange could give a peek at the diary. Or better... he seems to know he has no right to stop her but he'll try his hardest to find a way to stop her just the same. In a way it's an interesting battle between the mind (which knows Ange has a right to do it) and the heart (who knows Ange will be hurt if she does it and refuses to let her be hurt).
And this ties nicely with the reproach Erika made. Tohya refused to meet Ange and tried to send her messages in obscure ways so he only has himself to blame for failing to deliver his point.
But in a way it's sad. If Sayo's dead she never had the chance to deliver a message to Ange or try to, nor to think there was a message she needed to deliver to her.

In a way though Battler's idea fit him. Through all Umineko he tried to pick up the nicest explanation for other people's actions. It comes pretty natural that he would want Ange to get a chance to see things from his point of view, to see how everyone was actually a nice person who somehow ended up acting the wrong way due to circumstances.

Battler knows his family is not all sunshines and rainbows but he decides to try and see what's good in them. The ugly parts are yes, part of them, but not the whole, nor what's really important to them.

Ange had a much more black and white vision probably due to her being younger. Eva had to be purely evil, her immediate family had to be purely good but she was afraid they could be purely evil as well and the press pushed in this direction.

Battler tried to push toward the opposite extreme, as if this would balance things when instead normally this only confuses someone more as he's presented with two completely discording visions. Probably a fictional yer greyer portrayal of his family would have worked better.

I like Ange's reasoning and her wish to understand so as not to continue the chain of misfortune even if those words still reveals a maturity that's just... not Ange... unless the visual helps to deliver them in a more Ange-like way?


In a way I'd like to give a better look at that one truth. Ep 7 never explained what happened to Battler and Eva must not have found his body nor known if he decided to support Rudolf and Kyrie. Did she thought he was killed? Did she thought he was Rudolf and Kyrie's accomplice and escaped to her wrath? Did she abandon him to die or did she try to kill him too? And was Eva the one with whom Battler was escaping?

According to which you chose Eva's actions toward him take a quite different light.

In a way it would fit if Eva was the one trying to escape with Battler then he doubted her and she tried to kill him as it would be close to what happened in Ep 3 in a way.

I also like how the revelation for Battler's body surviving and Battler becoming Tohya is set up. If we mirror Battler's talk with what happened in Prime when faced with the tales Tohya figured his true identity is Battler but that he isn't Battler anymore so he doesn't want to be Ange's brother but at the same time he thinks it's cruel to tell her so. However he doesn't wish her harm and still tried to deliver a message to her.

It's also interesting how Ange admits she ended up with 'no goal' which is similar to how Battler was in Umineko. He claimed more than once he lived his life aimlessly.

Oh and Lambda is the best as usual.

It's a pity Umineko didn't have more extra stories. I think Lambda would have deserved more space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, the manga is kind of putting up Ikuko more as an unsuspecting outsider who ends up unwillingly becoming the villain to the story (aside from the fantasy-plot)...I do wonder how that will all turn around.
Ch26 now pretty much already set up the "I'm not Battler anymore and knowing all this I can impossibly face that girl" plot for the final Tohya reveal. Also, Lambda saying that Ange is a spirit body kind of leads me to the idea again that ALL of the Episodes are more or less fiction (as, the stories seen through the eyes of Battler and Ange) and that really only the Tea Parties or ??? elements take us a little outside of it. Not that the events of Ange's life in EP4 wouldn't be true, but they would be as much of a could-have-been scenario as the island-plots (both just minus the fantasy sparkles).
Honestly I'm curious about Ikuko. I wonder if her problem was that she was porly planned (or that Ryukishi changed his mind about her along the way) sos he came out as weirder than she needed to be and therefore more suspicious. Well, we'll see. Again thank you a lot for the translation!
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Old 2014-07-04, 01:16   Link #34515
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But in a way it's sad. If Sayo's dead she never had the chance to deliver a message to Ange or try to, nor to think there was a message she needed to deliver to her.
While it is true that the current state of things makes Sayo's fate a very miserable one, I'd prefer her to be actually dead in terms of dramatic story purposes.

Quote:
I like Ange's reasoning and her wish to understand so as not to continue the chain of misfortune even if those words still reveals a maturity that's just... not Ange... unless the visual helps to deliver them in a more Ange-like way?
Well, I think it's not unlike Ange. EP4 has already shown that she is not stupid and not necessarily immature, she is just very head-strong and stubborn, just like her brother. The few moments of rational thinking she has in EP4 and 6 (and from now in EP8), actually show that she has become quite mature and it was just her not knowing and especially not being told anything, being handled like a child, that kept her back.

Quote:
In a way I'd like to give a better look at that one truth. Ep 7 never explained
Well, the new EP7 chapter this month (sorry, didn't have the spare change to buy that one, only read it in the store) goes up to the Tea Party when the letter is being read out by Maria, so next month should be the massacre by Kyrie and Rudolph. I will definitely go and buy that one.
Btw. I found it interesting again how it is Eva's last words to Ange from EP3 that open the play here...makes an interesting hint towards where to place it on the "Ange-timeline".

Quote:
Honestly I'm curious about Ikuko. I wonder if her problem was that she was porly planned (or that Ryukishi changed his mind about her along the way) sos he came out as weirder than she needed to be and therefore more suspicious. Well, we'll see. Again thank you a lot for the translation!
I think she was just poorly inserted into the plot, since EP6 gave practically no hint at all that she might be somebody else than Hachij Tya, so the whole Ikuko thing came very much out of left field...and much of the Featherine character leaves Ikuko with very few actual motivation beside the one we get in the Interlude (both VN and manga), that she is simply just WEIRD.

I wouldn't mind her to turn out to be actually kind of a bad person in the way that she didn't care much for the pain she caused Tohya and Ange...or that she did it unknowingly...but I'd also just like to know a little bit more about what her motivations were.
The explanation that she really is God-mode Featherine inserting herself into the world of men would be similarly disappointing as Hany suddenly being there in Higurashi's Matsuribayashi...something that irks me till this day.
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Old 2014-07-04, 16:30   Link #34516
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
While it is true that the current state of things makes Sayo's fate a very miserable one, I'd prefer her to be actually dead in terms of dramatic story purposes.
LOL, I see you're a fan of tragic stories, aren't you?
Well, shame on me but I like tragic stories as well. It's just Ryukishi went so overboard with Sayo it's not even funny anymore.
I understand the moral might also be, 'okay, your life was horrible but since you gave up you don't deserve someone to save you and give you a happy ending of some sort' but really, how much an human can take before giving up? Her life is a giant pile of misfortune and while yes, giving up won't make it any better, which insurance there was it could go any better?
She seems unluckier than Donald Duck, one starts to wonder about how if she had left the island and tried to live happily probably the ship would have sinked, if she had remained there chances are a volcano would have eroupted blasting her away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, I think it's not unlike Ange. EP4 has already shown that she is not stupid and not necessarily immature, she is just very head-strong and stubborn, just like her brother. The few moments of rational thinking she has in EP4 and 6 (and from now in EP8), actually show that she has become quite mature and it was just her not knowing and especially not being told anything, being handled like a child, that kept her back.
Yes, I know Ange can have her moments but... well, I guess the VN version of Ep 8 left an huge impression on me about Ange's maturity or lack thereof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, the new EP7 chapter this month (sorry, didn't have the spare change to buy that one, only read it in the store) goes up to the Tea Party when the letter is being read out by Maria, so next month should be the massacre by Kyrie and Rudolph. I will definitely go and buy that one.
Btw. I found it interesting again how it is Eva's last words to Ange from EP3 that open the play here...makes an interesting hint towards where to place it on the "Ange-timeline".
It's okay, don't worry. I just hope Ep 7 will make that part a little more interesting... expecially because the VN part was confusing and because so far Ep 7 hadn't added much to the story apart a little more clarification over Will's solution. (I wanted a hint about Battler sending the letter or not... but I guess by the lack of hints either Ryukishi really doesn't want to answer to this one or Battler really didn't send a letter and the solution is in Ryukishi's words 'he was told to write the cousins so he wrote to the cousins'. And Ange, why I've no idea.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think she was just poorly inserted into the plot, since EP6 gave practically no hint at all that she might be somebody else than Hachij Tya, so the whole Ikuko thing came very much out of left field...and much of the Featherine character leaves Ikuko with very few actual motivation beside the one we get in the Interlude (both VN and manga), that she is simply just WEIRD.

I wouldn't mind her to turn out to be actually kind of a bad person in the way that she didn't care much for the pain she caused Tohya and Ange...or that she did it unknowingly...but I'd also just like to know a little bit more about what her motivations were.
The explanation that she really is God-mode Featherine inserting herself into the world of men would be similarly disappointing as Hany suddenly being there in Higurashi's Matsuribayashi...something that irks me till this day.
Well, it would be interesting if Ikuko were a stand in for Erika and her crazy marriage thing but ultimately it doesn't seem Ikuko ever meant harm to Tohya (unless the manga will change things radically) unless Erika's marriage is a roundabout way to say Ikuko knew who he was but kept it hidden from him because she wanted company basically trapping him with herself?

I also wouldn't want Ikuko to be a new Hanyu in human world.

Just wondering since you've access to much more original material than us, do you think Ryukishi planned to give all the answers he's giving (well, more or less) or that his original plans when the other media started working with Umineko were to release exactly the same amount of info as in the VN and then he changed his mind along the way?
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Old 2014-07-05, 14:43   Link #34517
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's okay, don't worry. I just hope Ep 7 will make that part a little more interesting... expecially because the VN part was confusing and because so far Ep 7 hadn't added much to the story apart a little more clarification over Will's solution. (I wanted a hint about Battler sending the letter or not... but I guess by the lack of hints either Ryukishi really doesn't want to answer to this one or Battler really didn't send a letter and the solution is in Ryukishi's words 'he was told to write the cousins so he wrote to the cousins'. And Ange, why I've no idea.)
What I'd like to know the most, is if EP7 manga version adds something about Battler's mysterious disappearance in the TP. Also if it shows Beatrice as a corpse in the background when Eva wakes up, or not.
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Old 2014-07-06, 07:03   Link #34518
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
What I'd like to know the most, is if EP7 manga version adds something about Battler's mysterious disappearance in the TP. Also if it shows Beatrice as a corpse in the background when Eva wakes up, or not.
Oh, yes, whose are really info I'm looking forward at, although I don't think there are much chances to learn more about Battler. I guess his fate has to stay a mystery till Ep 8 but at least Beatrice...
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Old 2014-07-06, 07:34   Link #34519
GoldenLand
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
In the absence of the music thread, I think this is the best one to post this in. I hereby present my best effort at the terrifying witch's challenge that is the lyrics of Happy Maria. I've spent far, far too long listening to the two versions of this thing and trying to make sense of it. Madness lies this way.

The official lyrics undoubtedly exist somewhere but can't be found, except for some small fragments on some promotional images for one CD. Those lyric fragments are as follow:

Quote:
"My wich is golden dreamer its magical go..."
"a wall I feel it my brock' en under show"
"...ann' law..."
"...e garpy show m..."
"...master..."
"Out the way it my brock en under show"
"Ah wich is golden brekaer on prac..."
Looking at them, it's no real surprise that the lyrics are hard to guess! What's a garpy or a garpy show? It's all lost in the darkness of the witch. Sorry, the darkness of the "wich". The only piece that I can't yet fit into the lyrics is the "...ann' law...". It must be in there somewhere, but I just can't find where it goes.

I'm going to do this in coloured text style, because for the life of me I'm still not sure about much of it. I might need to do some corrections later too.

Colour key

Black text = I'm not really sure, but here's a guess anyway.
Blue text = I think this is a reasonable guess.
Red text = I believe this is probably the right line.
Gold text = This is from the fragments of the official lyrics (albeit with corrected spellings for "brekaer", "brock' en, and "wich").


Happy Maria

My witch is golden dreamer
On practical gold a wing
Bursting on the creature
With bloody old September

Witch is golden dreamer
It's magical gold a chef
I'm gonna rest in fire
Oh magical breaking heart

In the promised party
The very very thing
Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince

Your master crazy
That every every thing
In a wall I feel it my broken under show

In a witch's golden prayer
From Maria's world a shriek
You gonna rest in fire
With bloody old December

In a witch's golden prayer
From Maria's world away
Bursting on the creature
To magical show we go

Sing a song of silence,
Of greedy greedy love
Is he come breaking the garpy show me a way

Your master crazy
That every every thing
Out the way you're breaking my broken under show

Ah witch's golden breaker
On practical gold a wing
Bursting on the creature
With bloody old September

Witch's golden breaker
It's magical gold a chef
I'm gonna rest in fire
Oh magical breaking heart

In the promised party
The very very thing
Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince

Your master crazy
That every every thing
In a wall I feel it my broken under show

Ah witch's golden sorcer
From Maria's world a shriek
You gonna rest in fire
With final October

In a witch's golden sorcer
From Maria's world away
Bursting on the creature
To magical show we go

Killing kill in silence,
The bloody lonely witch
Is he come breaking the garpy show me a way

Your master crazy
That every every thing
Out the way you're breaking my broken under show

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2014-07-06 at 08:26.
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Old 2014-07-07, 09:37   Link #34520
GreyZone
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Join Date: Jan 2012
I'll make an attempt too. There are some parts that are clearly different. Also I think I found the "ann' law" passage you mentioned. I am not sure about "chef" though. I am not sure if it could be "ship" after all... also if "sorcer" is supposed to refer to "sorcery" in general, though I think "saucer" (ALIENS!) would be plausible too in a way...

My witch is golden dreamer
On practical golden wing
Blossom on the creature
With bloody old September

Witch is golden dreamer
It's magical golden chef
I'm gonna burst in fire
Oh magical beating heart

In the golden party
The very very thing
Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince?

Your master crazy,
Then every every thing
In a wall I feel it, my broken under show

Your witch's golden prayer
From Maria's wand a shriek
You gonna burst in fire
With bloody old December

In a witch's golden prayer
From Maria's golden wing
Blossom on the creature
The magical show we go

Sing a song in silent,
The gleamy greed and law
Is he come breaking the garpy show men?

Your master crazy,
Then every every thing
Out the way you're breaking my broken under show

Our witch's golden breaker
On practical golden wing
Blossom on the creature
With bloody old September

Witch's golden breaker
It's magical golden chef
I'm gonna burst in fire
Oh magical beating heart

In the golden party
The very very thing
Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince?

Your master crazy,
Then every every thing
In a wall I feel it, my broken under show

Our witch's golden sorcer
From Maria's wand a shriek
You gonna burst in fire
With final October

In a witch's golden sorcer
From Maria's golden wing
Blossom on the creature
The magical show we go

Clearly killing silent,
The broken lonely witch
Is he come breaking the garpy show men?

Your master crazy,
Then every every thing
Out the way you're breaking my broken under show
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