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Old 2014-07-11, 01:41   Link #34521
Void_Heart
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If I may ask a quick question, can somebody explain these for me?

Is there any difference between Ep6 Beato and EPs1-5 Beato?

How is Yasu-Clair different from Meta-Beato?
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Old 2014-07-11, 11:01   Link #34522
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Void_Heart View Post
If I may ask a quick question, can somebody explain these for me?

Is there any difference between Ep6 Beato and EPs1-5 Beato?

How is Yasu-Clair different from Meta-Beato?
Well, it's a bit up to debate as there's not an official explanation but basically Beato from Ep 1 to 5 represents many sides of her original creator, Sayo in 1986.

Yasu-Clair in Ep 7 is mostly a living representation of Sayo's confession. In the manga is said she also wrote that down. In a way Clair is the personification of that confession.

The Clair of the Teaparty might instead be the personification of Eva's diary.

Beato the elder sister of Ep 6 represents the Sayo that had fun playing pranks and scaring people pretending Beatrice was wandering through the island.

Beato the younger sister is... more complicate. She was created as the embodiement of the rules of the gamoboard and I guess this means she was supposed to be the one that gets blamed when someothing mysterious happen but she's not just that. She's also the representation of the 'not so discharged feelings' Sayo had for Battler. Although in a way she can also be the representation of the Sayo Battler knew 6 years ago. She also works as a parallel with the relation between Kinzo and KuwadorianBeatrice only it shows what Kinzo should have done instead than what he did.

In truth Kinzo forced Kuwadorian Beatrice to become her mother and then forced himself on her, denying her of her own self and ignoring how she perceived him as her father.

Battler, although hurt by the loss of Beatrice and also longing to have her back through the new Beatrice, in the end accepted the new Beatrice was a different person and that he shouldn't force his feelings on her but accept her for who she was and respect it, if she views him as a father. As a result, Beatrice takes confidence and shift her perception from 'Battler as her "father"' to 'Battler as the man she loves' and, although Battler remains clinging to the memory of the past Beatrice, they can have their own love story in the end (I guess it heped they weren't really father and daughter and Beatrice already loved Battler even if she called him "father").
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Old 2014-07-12, 11:14   Link #34523
Void_Heart
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Well, it's a bit up to debate as there's not an official explanation but basically Beato from Ep 1 to 5 represents many sides of her original creator, Sayo in 1986.

Yasu-Clair in Ep 7 is mostly a living representation of Sayo's confession. In the manga is said she also wrote that down. In a way Clair is the personification of that confession.

The Clair of the Teaparty might instead be the personification of Eva's diary.
Thanks for reminding me, I do remember the confession bottle that showed up in EP8's manga. So this part makes the most sense, when in EP6 at first she could use magic unlike the Chick-Beato

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Beato the elder sister of Ep 6 represents the Sayo that had fun playing pranks and scaring people pretending Beatrice was wandering through the island.
Also easy enough to explain

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Beato the younger sister is... more complicate. She was created as the embodiment of the rules of the gameboard and I guess this means she was supposed to be the one that gets blamed when something mysterious happen but she's not just that. She's also the representation of the 'not so discharged feelings' Sayo had for Battler. Although in a way she can also be the representation of the Sayo Battler knew 6 years ago. She also works as a parallel with the relation between Kinzo and KuwadorianBeatrice only it shows what Kinzo should have done instead than what he did.

In truth Kinzo forced Kuwadorian Beatrice to become her mother and then forced himself on her, denying her of her own self and ignoring how she perceived him as her father.

Battler, although hurt by the loss of Beatrice and also longing to have her back through the new Beatrice, in the end accepted the new Beatrice was a different person and that he shouldn't force his feelings on her but accept her for who she was and respect it, if she views him as a father. As a result, Beatrice takes confidence and shift her perception from 'Battler as her "father"' to 'Battler as the man she loves' and, although Battler remains clinging to the memory of the past Beatrice, they can have their own love story in the end (I guess it heped they weren't really father and daughter and Beatrice already loved Battler even if she called him "father").
Yeah Chick-Beatrice was the most confusing of the bunch. Thanks for clarifying it as best as possible.
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Old 2014-07-25, 09:58   Link #34524
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Umineko Ep 8 manga spoilers:
here and here.
The new chapter seems similar to the VN though although as I can't read the text it could be the dialogues were changed.
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Old 2014-07-26, 15:25   Link #34525
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Umineko Ep 8 manga spoilers:
here and here.
The new chapter seems similar to the VN though although as I can't read the text it could be the dialogues were changed.
Thank you, those pictures look great! The artist for ep 8 really is good.

The Battler dolly that Kinzo's holding there looks pretty silly.
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Old 2014-08-04, 13:52   Link #34526
Levani
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It's so sad to see this board so...dead

Last edited by Levani; 2014-08-04 at 14:05.
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Old 2014-08-05, 04:41   Link #34527
renosm
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Well, I was rereading the tea party of EP7 recently and I noticed something out of place. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before. Anyway, here I go:

Bernkastel shows to Lion that even in the happiest possible fragment of Yasu's life she still gets killed. Her story makes sense up to a certain point and goes somewhat like this: The adults started arguing about Lion's right to become the family head, so Kinzo posed a difficult riddle (the epitaph), which he had thought up since the construction of the mansion. All the relatives worked together and solved the riddle which led them to the hidden gold room. Bernkastel follows this part with an "After this everything happened as you saw before". However, the exclusion of Yasu from the tale creates a major problem. There is no cash card!

I believe that the tea party makes it pretty clear that Kyrie and Rudolf commit all the murders in order to obtain the cash card. It is mentioned that the gold would be extremely difficult to turn into cash without the help of Krauss. And even if we assume that they settled for the gold, how many ingots would the two of them be able to carry? Is it possible that they are willing to kill all these people just to smuggle a couple of ingots, which they will have difficulty converting to usable cash later?

Does this mean that the whole story was just Bernkastel staying true to her trolling nature? Maybe Lion actually lives a happy life and the lack of motive in Bernkastel's tale is a hint to that. What do you think everyone?
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Old 2014-08-05, 09:03   Link #34528
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It's so sad to see this board so...dead
It's gone through quiet patches like this before. Though, what with having the board retired and not visible on the main forum page, there'll be less new people noticing it and surfing in. But I'm sure we'll get plenty of activity as the manga updates. There must be things left for it to reveal.

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I believe that the tea party makes it pretty clear that Kyrie and Rudolf commit all the murders in order to obtain the cash card. It is mentioned that the gold would be extremely difficult to turn into cash without the help of Krauss. And even if we assume that they settled for the gold, how many ingots would the two of them be able to carry? Is it possible that they are willing to kill all these people just to smuggle a couple of ingots, which they will have difficulty converting to usable cash later?

Does this mean that the whole story was just Bernkastel staying true to her trolling nature? Maybe Lion actually lives a happy life and the lack of motive in Bernkastel's tale is a hint to that. What do you think everyone?
Hmm, I wonder. I haven't read the tea party for some time, but I'll try to speculate anyway.

Kyrie's family might have connections she could tap into which could convert the gold for her. She's not very keen on her family, but if she was desperate, perhaps she could still ask for their help. Alternatively, perhaps the cash card existed in that fragment, but for a different reason? Kinzo was still alive: maybe he told Genji to prepare the cash card for Lion's use.

After all this time I'm still not totally sure what the fragments stand for.
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Old 2014-08-05, 13:32   Link #34529
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Quote:
Does this mean that the whole story was just Bernkastel staying true to her trolling nature? Maybe Lion actually lives a happy life and the lack of motive in Bernkastel's tale is a hint to that. What do you think everyone?
That's what I took from it, considering Will was able to slice that entire WORLD in half like it was nothing.
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Old 2014-08-05, 17:14   Link #34530
renosm
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But I'm sure we'll get plenty of activity as the manga updates. There must be things left for it to reveal.
I'm really hoping for some twists regarding Battler's point of view in the one truth incident!

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Hmm, I wonder. I haven't read the tea party for some time, but I'll try to speculate anyway.

Kyrie's family might have connections she could tap into which could convert the gold for her. She's not very keen on her family, but if she was desperate, perhaps she could still ask for their help. Alternatively, perhaps the cash card existed in that fragment, but for a different reason? Kinzo was still alive: maybe he told Genji to prepare the cash card for Lion's use.
I'm pretty sure that Kyrie could find a way to convert the gold, since there's all this Yakuza business going on in her family. Nonetheless, it would be too much risky work. The motive for the murders was that the cash card could be immediately used and nearly impossible to leave traces. Exchanging gold in the black market is not so easy even with the proper shady connections. It just doesn't seem right to me for Kyrie to commit this huge crime only to risk with the exchange of the gold further ahead.
Moreover, the value of the ingots they would be able to carry couldn't match up to the amount of money the cash card could provide. And don't forget that they would have to carry the ingots back home. What excuse could they possibly use at the boat that would come to take them?
"Oh the whole island blew up with all our relatives, but thank god we could save these five gold ingots!"
Or they could hide them under their shirts and keep repeating how great Gohda's cooking was!

As for the existence of the cash card by another random means, doesn't it sound like a cheap explanation? I could explain the existence of guns with some random theory: "Kinzo sometimes kept his prized gun collection in the hidden gold room. This way he could relax by the gold while caressing his guns and contemplating blowing up the island if he couldn't come up with a clever business move."
It could work! But having a cash card available there? It seems quite forced, don't you agree?

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After all this time I'm still not totally sure what the fragments stand for.
Well the different fragments represent parallel universes, but I don't think this is the explanation you're looking for...

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That's what I took from it, considering Will was able to slice that entire WORLD in half like it was nothing.
You're right! And there's also that whole scene with Will trying to help Lion reach her happy ending! It seems to indicate that there actually is a happy ending.
"Don't look for a miracle! Be one!" That quote gave me goosebumps.
One of the reasons that I like this theory is that Sayo really deserves a happy life, at least as Lion. Bernkastel tried to take even that from her, right in front of Clair's lifeless eyes. But the fact that Will saved her gives me hope that there is a happy life for her. Even though their struggle against Bernkastel seems futile and we never get a proper conclusion to it, I'd like to believe that they succeeded.
That Lion really did become the miracle she was looking for.
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Old 2014-08-06, 06:53   Link #34531
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A possibility is that episode 7 teaparty lied about Kyrie's motive or modus operandi. After all for part of ep 7 we have no surviving observer (Kyrie died so she can't give us her version of her own motive and of what happened after Eva lost consciousness) and for the parts for which we have one (Eva) that observer is partial and is probably presenting her own interpretation. So, even if things went in a way that's similar to the teaparty actually there could have been relevant differences. In addition Lion's world is fictional so it's a bit like ep 6. It makes no sense for Erika to murder everyone yet she does.
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Old 2014-08-06, 11:41   Link #34532
renosm
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A possibility is that episode 7 teaparty lied about Kyrie's motive or modus operandi. After all for part of ep 7 we have no surviving observer (Kyrie died so she can't give us her version of her own motive and of what happened after Eva lost consciousness) and for the parts for which we have one (Eva) that observer is partial and is probably presenting her own interpretation. So, even if things went in a way that's similar to the teaparty actually there could have been relevant differences.
I really like the theory of Kyrie having a motive that's different than what's presented to us. It is also possible for the parts not witnessed by Eva to be false and constructed by her own subjective take on events.

But I think I disagree about the parts that Eva did witness. If I remember correctly Featherine used the red to say that Eva's diary contains the truth of what happened on Rokkenjima. If we assume that the diary only contains the parts that Eva witnessed, those parts have to be the truth. The red is supposed to be objective after all.

All the extra scenes (not witnessed by Eva) presented on the tea party were the missing pieces that Eva would use to complete her own interpretation of the story. They aren't objectively true and therefore they are not included in the diary. Since some scenes of the tea party are just interpretations Bernkastel can only say: "This is all truth of some sort but not necessarily true."

In EP8 Ange finally reads the book of one truth/Eva's diary. Inside it, she see's only what Eva saw, but having witnessed the tea party, she believes all those extra scenes that she was presented to be the truth. Since the diary only contains the scenes that Eva witnessed Bernkastel can say: "This is all truth"

I really don't know what twist could be hiding behind Kyrie's actions and if there really is one it would offer a whole new perspective on the events of the one true.

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In addition Lion's world is fictional so it's a bit like ep 6. It makes no sense for Erika to murder everyone yet she does.
Why is Lion's world supposed to be fictional? And Erika could just be a psychotic bitch (which she is).
Isn't every fragment supposed to make sense both as fiction and as real world events?
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Old 2014-08-06, 13:00   Link #34533
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I really don't know what twist could be hiding behind Kyrie's actions and if there really is one it would offer a whole new perspective on the events of the one true.
An idea Renall and I have is that Eva's perspective is reliable but she extrapolated on parts she wasn't there for. Let's say someone else killed everyone that Eva wouldn't of believed/accepted (George, for instance), and Kyrie had to put him down and was the last remaining or something.

So she says all this evil villain stuff so Eva will take care of Ange, because yea there's no way she's getting off the hook when Eva's pointing a gun at her and she's covered in blood.
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Old 2014-08-07, 06:59   Link #34534
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Red truth is true but, for lack of better words is also 'opinionable' so that you can use it to say that Shannon is dead although her body is not. Eva's diary might contain truths that actually end up misleading us. If I say kyrie aimed at Eva's head and hit it, it's factually true but since I didn't specify the hit zone was only a thin patch of skin as the bullet only grazed her my factual truth will lead you to assume Eva is dead or, at least, seriously wounded.
Add to this that we don't exactly know what was written in the diary and what was the result of the reader's interpretation and you get a red truth that's tied to the interpretation of Eva and Ange.

As for Lion's world the idea behind Umineko is that what exists is what we call Prime while the others are all works of fiction to fill the catbox. Lion is specifically definend as Beatrice's dream, which Bern turned into a nightmare.

Of course you can try embracing the meta interpretation and believe all the gameboards are real words and ignore how they're only supposed to be tales in the catbox. I guess it's a possible interpretation but to me doesn't feel like the intended interpretation.
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Old 2014-08-07, 10:59   Link #34535
renosm
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An idea Renall and I have is that Eva's perspective is reliable but she extrapolated on parts she wasn't there for. Let's say someone else killed everyone that Eva wouldn't of believed/accepted (George, for instance), and Kyrie had to put him down and was the last remaining or something.
So she says all this evil villain stuff so Eva will take care of Ange, because yea there's no way she's getting off the hook when Eva's pointing a gun at her and she's covered in blood.
I find this to be an awesome theory! I really hope that something along these lines gets revealed. Having Battler or George as killers (or even both of them) would provide for a totally unexpected twist.
That scene with George conversing with Shannon during the tea party doesn't seem to serve any specific purpose, so perhaps it is a hint to what really happened.

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Red truth is true but, for lack of better words is also 'opinionable' so that you can use it to say that Shannon is dead although her body is not. Eva's diary might contain truths that actually end up misleading us. If I say kyrie aimed at Eva's head and hit it, it's factually true but since I didn't specify the hit zone was only a thin patch of skin as the bullet only grazed her my factual truth will lead you to assume Eva is dead or, at least, seriously wounded.
Add to this that we don't exactly know what was written in the diary and what was the result of the reader's interpretation and you get a red truth that's tied to the interpretation of Eva and Ange.
Shannon never counted as a body. She was born as a personality and solely existed as one. However, I can see your point. Even Battler is declared dead by Bernkastel while his body is still alive.

In regard to the book of one truth however, isn't it a bit of a cheat to declare that it contains the truth if it contains falsehoods?
Let's say that I see a bunny, but interpret it as a cat. If I write a book about my experience, I can indeed claim that this book contains my "personal truth". But no red could ever be used to affirm its contents as "the truth". The phrase Featherine uses is "The truth is written in this diary."
If Featherine used this phrase for my book it would literally mean that I saw a cat.

Since it's "the truth" that's inside Eva's diary, there's no room left for her interpretations. Anything she saw and wrote down is what actually happened.

How the reader interprets the diary is a completely different subject and I don't see how it could be connected to the red describing its contents.
As for the truths inside the diary, they could be very misleading indeed, but they would still be true.

Last edited by renosm; 2014-08-07 at 17:20.
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Old 2014-08-09, 19:55   Link #34536
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Argh, great, my post got deleted by my browser fucking up again...so I will make it a little shorter this time.
I finally decided to get volume 6 of the EP7 manga and was suprised to see that they actually inserted new content into the chapters before Yasu solves the epitaph. The new scenes include a better explanation of how Kanon was created, a more detailed depiction of the siblings reaction to the epitaph and Kinzo and Genji having a conversation about their motivation.
Spoiler for Kanon's creation:


The siblings reaction to the epitaph is also a lot more detailed:
Eva basically directly jumps on the riddle aspect and the fact that everybody is allowed to solve it: "A riddle is meant to be solved. So yes...it really is...It really means that!! Father never had any intentions of handing the headship of the family to Krauss-niisan!! Kukuku...kihihihihhihi! Finally...Finally my chance had come about! My chance to become the head of this family!!"
Kyrie sees it as a nefarious plan from Kinzo, with some vile or malicious intent hidden behind it that doesn't become clear until you solve it. She is quite sure that there is a different goal than just randomly deciding the family head, but also thinks that the 10t of gold could be real and that it is a chance to ride upon.
Rosa sees it as her chance to get her husband back by getting into money again, but also fears that it is impossible to reach a solution, so she shows the epitaph to Maria who immediatly sees it as the "witch's ritual" and wants to confront Beato about it.

And then there's the conversation between Genji and Kinzo. First they just talk about why Kinzo put the epitaph up now, he wants to create a mircale to bring Beatrice back, yadda yadda yadda, but then Genji actually speaks up:
Spoiler for Kinzo's regrets:

After this follows another conversation between Will and Clair and it is confirmed that Kinzo knew (as we learn in Confession of the Golden Witch) that the baby wasn't dead and that he put up the epitaph as a sign to Genji that he knew. Genji understood this and considered what to do.
Will asked if the epitaph game was just a farce put up as a game between Kinzo and Genji and Clair confirms it. They close this by saying that the epitaph was never meant to be "solved" somebody was meant to be "made able to solve it".
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Old 2014-08-10, 16:17   Link #34537
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Um, no offense, and I'm grateful for the translations, but...wasn't pretty much all of that in the EP7 VN already? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything new there.
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Old 2014-08-10, 18:21   Link #34538
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Um, no offense, and I'm grateful for the translations, but...wasn't pretty much all of that in the EP7 VN already? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything new there.
I definitely do not remember anything resembling the Kinzou/Genji conversation. I don't remember anything along the lines of Kyrie believing the epitaph was a trap, either.
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Old 2014-08-10, 18:55   Link #34539
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Um, no offense, and I'm grateful for the translations, but...wasn't pretty much all of that in the EP7 VN already? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything new there.
Maybe it was the way it was framed in the VN or the way the pictures worked with it in the manga version, but I didn't remember these scenes being so elaborate.

Also considering that even after EP8 was finished we were still wondering what Genji's motivation was for suddenly getting Yasu and Kinzo together...I don't think this scene was in the VN in that form or else we were all blind.
It basically tells us that Genji had hoped for Kinzo to get better but didn't believe him. When he was finally convinced enough that Kinzo wouldn't repeat his errors of the past he led Yasu to the gold.
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Old 2014-08-10, 19:45   Link #34540
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Actually, I think Drifloon is correct. I clearly remember both these scenes from playing episode 7 in both Japanese and English.

I remember also Genji getting a lot of flak here at the time because of his methods still being really pretty questionable.

That said, perhaps paired with the manga art these scenes have a bit more impact. From what I recall they were largely blank screen walls of text in the game.
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