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Old 2006-04-06, 01:03   Link #41
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodamn!
Not really. Cause this part of the conversation stemed from the subject of humor in which Chopper's distinct character based humor isn't simply that of height or being fearful. It's clear that the character you should have brought up at all about being humorous when scared is actually Ussop.
No it wasn't...It was a simple comparison based on you asking what kind of comedy in One Piece is similiar to DBZ...And I gave it to you and yes it was general as it was intended to be...The fact that Chopper is short like Krillen was just another generality in comparison...No need to include Ussop cause If i wanted to I could have easily pulled Mr. Satan outta my hat (A lie a minute scardy-cat) to balance that 2 on 2 debate...The point was so clearly made and you trying to parse-hairs on Luffy not eating as sloppily as Goku is the biggest joke of all...I know he's your favorite character in anime, but your tying the noose yourself with that one...

Quote:
No, the thing was Goku and Kid Buu was still simply a matter of Goku not being capable of defeating Kid Buu by himself. No amount of excuses or blame will change the fact that Goku still cleary wasn't doing what you specified for every villain after Freiza. That Goku was not in a situation of actually being able to defeat Cell.
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When did I say he coulda just easily beat Cell?? All i said was that parts of that fight (as per his plan) was to show Gohan his moves...He had already made the decision prior to the fight that he was going to let Gohan defeat Cell...If you watched DBZ and didn't get all the clues, obvious and subtle that Goku fights for fun and/or to test his abilities before he gets serious you know nothing about his character at all...Furthermore (as for kid buu too) your confusing the fact that I said the villains were like the underdawgs (IMO) with me saying Goku was always clearly (technically) stronger than every villain...

Momma Mia! >_<;;;
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2006-04-06 at 01:19.
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Old 2006-04-06, 02:47   Link #42
neoko
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You guys should stop trying to persuade each other to agree with your own opinions. Instead, you should agree and to disagree, because the world is a big and diverse place.

On topic;

I'm not sure how popular one piece is, it may be the most popular thing in japan like someone said earlier, but IMO a possible reason why OP manga can seem to be less popular than naruto/bleach is because is retains an unique style.

Stuff that OP doesn't have, or doesn't refer to as much:

- Main character has some sorta trump card (ichigo - that hollow guy inside him, naruto - the kyuubi)
- Main character attains new abilities and levels (ichigo - bankai, naruto - kyuubi transformations)
- Really strong characters fight (bleach - captains fighting, naruto - the sanins, hokage, akatuski, etc...)
- The whole ordeal of going away to train, and then coming back right in the nick of time to save the day, showing off some super new powers

My memory ain't really good, but i'm sure people who've read all 3 can think of more/better examples. I just listed some to get my message across. The formula that bleach and naruto follow are pretty typical stuff among these types of manga, but hey - it works.

It's why i like bleach and naruto over OP.
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Old 2006-04-06, 08:52   Link #43
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
No it wasn't...It was a simple comparison based on you asking what kind of comedy in One Piece is similiar to DBZ...And I gave it to you and yes it was general as it was intended to be...The fact that Chopper is short like Krillen was just another generality in comparison...No need to include Ussop cause If i wanted to I could have easily pulled Mr. Satan outta my hat (A lie a minute scardy-cat) to balance that 2 on 2 debate...The point was so clearly made and you trying to parse-hairs on Luffy not eating as sloppily as Goku is the biggest joke of all...I know he's your favorite character in anime, but your tying the noose yourself with that one...
Except that you can make general comparisons for just about any shonen jump in comparison to another yet you wouldn't say that two of them have the same comedy. That Chopper's height in one of his forms still not really a humorous moment much less the only factor of his character. And that Luffy still does more for comedy beyond simply eating alot. A general single similarity still doesn't equate to the same comedy. You said that DBZ had the same comedy as One Piece so usually when you say the comedy is the same for two shows that would have to be a distinct similarity or you are just simply going out of your way to make two different shows seem similar.
Quote:
When did I say he coulda just easily beat Cell?? All i said was that parts of that fight (as per his plan) was to show Gohan his moves...He had already made the decision prior to the fight that he was going to let Gohan defeat Cell...If you watched DBZ and didn't get all the clues, obvious and subtle that Goku fights for fun and/or to test his abilities before he gets serious you know nothing about his character at all...Furthermore (as for kid buu too) your confusing the fact that I said the villains were like the underdawgs (IMO) with me saying Goku was always clearly (technically) stronger than every villain...

Momma Mia! >_<;;;
You do realize that the idea behind the whole underdog term is an individual expected to have no chance in a fight on the basis that the person is weaker? That Goku enjoying fighting still doesn't mean that for every fight he's just simply holding back. But really, a person who holds back against another opponent is still pretty much a bit of a jerk since it's insulting to fight someone half ass. But I digress. You still haven't proved that Goku could have beaten Cell.
Quote:
- Main character has some sorta trump card (ichigo - that hollow guy inside him, naruto - the kyuubi)
- Main character attains new abilities and levels (ichigo - bankai, naruto - kyuubi transformations)
- Really strong characters fight (bleach - captains fighting, naruto - the sanins, hokage, akatuski, etc...)
- The whole ordeal of going away to train, and then coming back right in the nick of time to save the day, showing off some super new powers

My memory ain't really good, but i'm sure people who've read all 3 can think of more/better examples. I just listed some to get my message across. The formula that bleach and naruto follow are pretty typical stuff among these types of manga, but hey - it works.

It's why i like bleach and naruto over OP.
So you are saying that not having distinct Japanese Shonen Jump cliches is bad? And how much of One Piece have you seen?
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Old 2006-04-06, 11:32   Link #44
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ife followed One Piece for like ... a long time
i watched most arc up untill the filler episodes in witch they hypnotised everyone in losing their memmory (also from the One Piece game with the kid with the seahorse blowing horn)

ive heard from One Piece and first watched the raw episode of latest edition and first read the manga, im planning on collecting it now too

but i started to miss the fibe in the much later episodes, the manga takes super long its a bit standard villain fight procedure, first its Zoro, Sanji, Nami etc. and then in the end its Luffy, after a while i got sick of that

i did like the humor, i still watch the movies from time to time, but there's just somhting missing for me in the latest episodes, i still read manga but not with as muh fun as before

maybe its because it got so populair that i started to dislike it in the end

Naruto and Bleach, well only 2 people in my town know that Bleach is a anime show, almost noone watches anime here where i live

but i dislike Naruto a bit, but not as much as One Piece (not that i hate that soo much, i will keep a space in my heart for it ^^) , because some people in this town walk around with head bands O.O; , i think that goes a bit too far lol because people here think youre insane and dont know anything about anime

i know a girl at baseball that wears it to every training <.<;
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Old 2006-04-06, 13:04   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
Y'know i noticed that one piece seems to starts out alot slower then bleach and naruto... i found that bleach and naruto can get you hooked pretty quickly, while One piece takes more time...
I think you nailed it there. Bleach and Naruto get stuck in pretty quick, and you get the initial flashes of genius pretty early (ep.17ish in Naruto lake country fight with Naruto, and earlier again in Bleach).

One Piece is a real slow starter. Realistically the first slices of genius in One Piece don't occur until the utterly compelling Nami - hometown arc. And thats not until 30/40 eps have elapsed.

The cast aren't even fully assembled until wa-ay into the series.

OP has been much more consistent in its quality however. Its creativity and imagination only truly shine until later on. It's comic intensity and punchline delivery rule too.

I mean Island Whale. I can understand that substance use was in progress, I just can't figure out how he still managed to draw straight lines while dropping tabs.

But Naruto & Bleach show their true form early, and can hook you quicker.
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Old 2006-04-06, 18:26   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
So you are saying that not having distinct Japanese Shonen Jump cliches is bad? And how much of One Piece have you seen?
I said it could be a reason why. Why would i say such a thing? Because i like Bleach, DBZ, Naruto better than OP. OP spends a lot of time introducing a story to a new arc, i'm impatient, so i don't follow OP well.

A lot of people are impatient, they may just fall in the same boat, anything wrong? The world is diverse.

I've read all of OP up to 400, i have 401 to 405 but i can't be stuffed reading because i know it doesn't get much in 5 chapters. I've read all of these mangas a long time ago, but the ones i remember best are still bleach, dbz and naruto.

Maybe it's appeal. Who knows.
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Old 2006-04-06, 20:00   Link #47
neodrag38
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Then you say it's a matter of impatience. Not exactly a new startling revelation.

And how exactly do you get as much in 5 chaps from the other Shonen Jump series? Especially when one or two of what you list would have chaps filled with nothing new in terms of actual info much less the length of fights.
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Old 2006-04-06, 20:25   Link #48
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In my opinion people like Naruto/Bleach more not only because they are action anime but also because they have fanboy characters that people are attracted to(ex. Sauske,little 10th captian kid who isn't that strong). It also has small bits of love that tie in to the story.
One Piece is my favorite anime so my opinion my be a little bias but i'm so glad One Piece doesn't have love to mess everything up. One Piece is more about friends on a journey with dreams all facing in the same general direction. One Piece isn't like DBZ, Naruto, or Bleach because until recent chapters, no one has had any retarded powerup that takes no time to achieve and makes them godly strong.
In my personal opinion, I like the fights in One Piece more than any other anime. No one delivers beats like One Piece.

But basicly Naruto is by far the most popular anime in the States, but in Japan One Piece may be a little little bit more popular than Naruto and Bleach. It's all a matter if you like adventure or action more.
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Old 2006-04-06, 21:18   Link #49
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@neo If you don't understand that general comparisons are valid in the context of evaluating similiar comedic values you've lost it...


Quote:
Originally Posted by neodragging on and on
But really, a person who holds back against another opponent is still pretty much a bit of a jerk since it's insulting to fight someone half ass. But I digress. You still haven't proved that Goku could have beaten Cell
Ok so he's a jerk for that, for being a Sayain who loves the thrill of fighting and always since a kid being someone who loves to test his abilities even more than simply defeat someone unless he deems he has too...So at it's base you object to that because you feel he's a jerk for it...Finally to still be misinterpreting my Cell point at this stage in the discussion is just bull-headedness...I can go point for point with anything you got, but this debate has fizzeld a bit...I stand by the totality of what I've discussed...So keep smiling...
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Old 2006-04-06, 23:02   Link #50
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
@neo If you don't understand that general comparisons are valid in the context of evaluating similiar comedic values you've lost it...
If you don't understand the fact that you put down that the two shows had the same comedy rather than originally saying simply generally similar you lack memory. Unless you enjoy bringing up general similarities that are more the universal in genearlity rather than concrete, specific.
Quote:
Ok so he's a jerk for that, for being a Sayain who loves the thrill of fighting and always since a kid being someone who loves to test his abilities even more than simply defeat someone unless he deems he has too...So at it's base you object to that because you feel he's a jerk for it...Finally to still be misinterpreting my Cell point at this stage in the discussion is just bull-headedness...I can go point for point with anything you got, but this debate has fizzeld a bit...I stand by the totality of what I've discussed...So keep smiling...
Uh, no. My comment about holding back against an opponent in terms of acting half ass was a simply a side comment rather than my main point. That you still for some weird reason claim that your use of the word underdog didn't mean what it actually ususally does mean. And how did I misinterpret your exacts words of "Could have beaten Cell..." when it remains that the only thing that seemed capable of defeating Cell in his last form was a SS2?
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Old 2006-04-06, 23:39   Link #51
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo
If you don't understand the fact that you put down that the two shows had the same comedy rather than originally saying simply generally similar you lack memory. Unless you enjoy bringing up general similarities that are more the universal in genearlity rather than concrete, specific.
As specific as you when you asked the cro-magnon of questions..."Funny like One Piece how?" As if I even had to break it down in general generalities to have you understand how simple the comparison was...As if you had to enroll in Yale just to understand the simple comparison I was making in comedic dynamics...So simple your head might explode from over-thinking...


Quote:
Originally Posted by neo
That you still for some weird reason claim that your use of the word underdog didn't mean what it actually ususally does mean
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingTiredness
Sparred half-a$$ with Cell (for a good deal of that fight) to let Gohan see his moves...Just cause the villains were bada$$ don't mean they weren't underdawgs when they had to fight usually atleast 4 legendary SSJ's each epic battle...
I'm sorry if you felt I meant he coulda just beat Cell, I totally meant him holding back in parts of that fight to show Gohan his moves.. So I'll take a mulligan on that..

As for the rest, It's a perception...Hell the commercial campaign on Cartoon Network used to even say this (the underdawg thing)...Not that that's canon by any stretch, but I think it's fair for me to say that DBZ was the only anime I watched where the main core of protagonists (Goku especially) seemed almost unbeatable or had an air of insurmountability to them...Many times it was the villains fighting uphill to challenge (In most shonen or any cartoons really it's visa versa)...having to do stuff like absorb already ridiculously strong beings like 16 and 17 (Cell) because simply being a combination of every strong character in the series isn't strong enuff (IMAGINE THAT)...or having to absorb Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, and Piccolo (buu) just to have A CHANCE to beat Goku (Do you still not grasp the concept of my underdawg point?)...The Villains had to go to beyond ridiculous lengths just to be able to not get totally outclassed by various Super-saiyans...Usually that's visa versa for the most part...But eventhough they went thru these things giving them the persona of an underdawg IMO, that doesn't mean that AT THE END OF ALL THE TRANSFORMATIONS AND ABSORBTIONS that Goku was still technically stronger than them...Can you give an inch and tell me this isn't going over your head? Now you could accept some of this or bullishly continue to argue me in wingdarkness fashion...
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Old 2006-04-07, 00:08   Link #52
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
As specific as you when you asked the cro-magnon of questions..."Funny like One Piece how?" As if I even had to break it down in general generalities to have you understand how simple the comparison was...As if you had to enroll in Yale just to understand the simple comparison I was making in comedic dynamics...So simple your head might explode from over-thinking...
Well sorry for expecting for you to try to bring up similarities that weren't simply oddly off generalities. In which I wouldn't say one show has the same comedy of another based solely on singular simplication of characters as if the differences or existing other factors in their personalities outwayed made generally universal those generalities.
Quote:
I'm sorry if you felt I meant he coulda just beat Cell, I totally meant him holding back in parts of that fight to show Gohan his moves.. So I'll take a mulligan on that..
Again, it's not really holding back when he has no chance whatsoever to actually destroy Cell. But thanks for taking the mulligan anyway.
Quote:
As for the rest, It's a perception...Hell the commercial campaign on Cartoon Network used to even say this (the underdawg thing)...Not that that's canon by any stretch, but I think it's fair for me to say that DBZ was the only anime I watched where the main core of protagonists (Goku especially) seemed almost unbeatable or had an air of insurmountability to them...Many times it was the villains fighting uphill to challenge (In most shonen or any cartoons really it's visa versa)...having to do stuff like absorb already ridiculously strong beings like 16 and 17 (Cell) because simply being a combination of every strong character in the series isn't strong enuff (IMAGINE THAT)...or having to absorb Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, and Piccolo (buu) just to have A CHANCE to beat Goku (Do you still not grasp the concept of my underdawg point?)...The Villains had to go to beyond ridiculous lengths just to be able to not get totally outclassed by various Super-saiyans...Usually that's visa versa for the most part...But eventhough they went thru these things giving them the persona of an underdawg IMO, that doesn't mean that AT THE END OF ALL THE TRANSFORMATIONS AND ABSORBTIONS that Goku was still technically stronger than them...Can you give an inch and tell me this isn't going over your head? Now you could accept some of this or bullishly continue to argue me in wingdarkness fashion...
For a guy who had the air of being unbeatable him getting killed off by Cell's self explosion and Gohan defeating Cell puts a bullet in that.

And again while the villains have their absorption of other beings to reach a new level of strength we still have the heroes with their fusions time and again. Much less that Buu without any outside influences whatsoever in his bodily structure was quite powerful as it was in which Goku still needed help to actually defeat it. An underdog situation still has to be in the confines of you expecting them to simply lose because they are considered weaker. Cause progression of strength to be stronger pretty much went both ways in odd or just simply out of the butt fashions.
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Old 2006-04-07, 00:12   Link #53
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because 4kids ruined it and people think its too childish and naruto has spread out even more now and we'l start seeing figurines and headbands selling at wallamart
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Old 2006-04-07, 00:39   Link #54
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@neodrag - Given the fact you're being sly and passive in regards to me totally fleshing out my underdawg point, I'll take that last post as a marginal concession of sorts...
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Old 2006-04-07, 01:56   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I don't know why the discussion moves in the direction of dragon ball. Even though it might have significant importance, comparing dragon ball to one piece or vice versa is not fair. Dragon ball has a historical importance, and can still entertain you, but that's it. One Piece has already exceeded its level, and that is what matters.


Now this is a post that really screams out foolishness towards the end I mean really...

One Piece has exceeded Dragonball How?
I do not remember ever being an manga/anime changing the fighting Genre! Also without Dragonball you would not have any One Piece! As a matter of fact you would not have as many animes that came out today especially you Naruto fans. Hell Dragonball will never be exceded as long as you have animes and mangas basing parts from the manga/anime and are inspired by that Series ALONE. Also by this time Dragonball/Dragonball Z were huge hits and world wide unlike One Piece. Akira Toriyama to many manga artists is GOD including yours truly Oda from One Piece.
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Old 2006-04-07, 03:47   Link #56
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in terms of inspiration, DBZ will always be tough to exceed... It was one of THE defining series for shonen... so it terms of insipration, no Shonen series can ever really win

However, in terms of overall quality, i give way more credit to One piece... the story, characters and fighting in One piece is simply better... Sure, the characters of one piece bare signs of inspiration from the DBZ characters, but they are not ripoffs of the characters, they are unique and far more interesting then most of the Dragonball cast ever was... Also, i think in about 50 episodes, One Piece will have reached the total length of the entire Dragonball series (DB,Z, and GT); Only thing is, the DB series in total went downhill halfway through(After freeza it got dull) while One Piece is still going strong... and the fighting one piece is much better; the fighting is far more unique and it never really gets boring. The fights can sometimes get drawn out, but Oda manages to keep up the intrest , unlike DBZ where the fighting just got tedious after awhile. Personally, in terms of Dragonball series, i liked the fighting best in the first series; y'know, before they became overpowered and made over use of energyblasts...

Dragonball will always have the credit for innovations and inspiration... but most of today's shonen series beat it in terms of overall quality

Quote:
Also by this time Dragonball/Dragonball Z were huge hits and world wide unlike One Piece.
well, consdiering that they pioneer'd Shonen, thus meaning they had no actual competition at their high point... that's not very hard to believe
Especially here in the states where DBZ's only anime competetion was Transformers which was old school, and Sailor moon which was for girls...
Shonen series today have a lot of tough competetion to deal with... with so many great series, it's hard for any of them to shine above the rest
this does make me wonder what Dragonball's popularity would have be like if it had the same tough competetion that today's shonen's have back when it was in it's rising days...

oh and this talk of shows inspiring other shows reminds me of something i learned today
Apparently, the entire anime style was basically inspired by Betty Boop... i seriously didn't see that coming =P
Never realized she was one of Tezuka's early inspirations
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Old 2006-04-07, 04:32   Link #57
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Then you say it's a matter of impatience. Not exactly a new startling revelation.

And how exactly do you get as much in 5 chaps from the other Shonen Jump series? Especially when one or two of what you list would have chaps filled with nothing new in terms of actual info much less the length of fights.
Huh? What? =/

Since you're such a OP fanboy, it's pointless to try to convince why OP may be lesser of a manga than others. Your persistance in arguing shows that much.
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Old 2006-04-07, 06:30   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
in terms of inspiration, DBZ will always be tough to exceed... It was one of THE defining series for shonen... so it terms of insipration, no Shonen series can ever really win

However, in terms of overall quality, i give way more credit to One piece... the story, characters and fighting in One piece is simply better... Sure, the characters of one piece bare signs of inspiration from the DBZ characters, but they are not ripoffs of the characters, they are unique and far more interesting then most of the Dragonball cast ever was... Also, i think in about 50 episodes, One Piece will have reached the total length of the entire Dragonball series (DB,Z, and GT); Only thing is, the DB series in total went downhill halfway through(After freeza it got dull) while One Piece is still going strong... and the fighting one piece is much better; the fighting is far more unique and it never really gets boring. The fights can sometimes get drawn out, but Oda manages to keep up the intrest , unlike DBZ where the fighting just got tedious after awhile. Personally, in terms of Dragonball series, i liked the fighting best in the first series; y'know, before they became overpowered and made over use of energyblasts...

Dragonball will always have the credit for innovations and inspiration... but most of today's shonen series beat it in terms of overall quality
I can't say I disagree with any of that (although the Future Trunks//unperfect cell//android saga which follows Freiza is highly underrated)...I pretty much agree with everything else you said, but a small part of my shonen heart will always belong to DBZ...The feeling I had as a 6, 7 year old forcing myself to go to sleep early on Friday Nights just to wake up at the crack of dawn so I could watch those Saturday Morning Cartoons was returned to me as a teenager via DBZ...While I've watched probably a hundred other anime series that I find much better in many different aspects (One Piece included), my connection to that series will never fade...I just can't express in words how much enjoyment I got out of the whole DBZ-experience (Only those who know can truley understand what that means)...You can never go back..that first time around was so great...To think about how many people I got hooked on that series in college...To think how many friends I had that didn't even like cartoons or anime who are now anime-freaks based on me showing them DBZ fansubs from the late 90's...Not many can understand, but that's just a part of the reason I find it hard to ignore when people either mindlessly bash it or crap on it for the sake of doing, or morso hate it because it became popular in the US and somehow they irrationally regard that as a black-eye for anime...

Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece are doing what was intended...Evolving the genre that DBZGT controlled for over a decade...It's only natural that they learned from some of DBZ's mistakes (Well Naruto has kinda dropped the ball a bit)...Unfortunatley the only damage that DBZ really did was overshadow Yu yu Hakusho which overall I personally consider the best shonen of alltime... Some animes have great storylines, some have great characters, others rely on action, humor, or horror, but very seldomly do you get an anime that incorporates all of these qualities effectively if not evenly....Hopefully after the conclusion of the "Big 3" (Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece) I can have something that resembles the feelings I have for DBZGT and Yu Yu...To be honest One Piece gives me that feeling more than the other 2, but I'd be lying if I said the fact that I used to go months without watching OP eps because no one was releasing them with any consistency didn't hurt my hype for the series...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
oh and this talk of shows inspiring other shows reminds me of something i learned today
Apparently, the entire anime style was basically inspired by Betty Boop... i seriously didn't see that coming =P
Never realized she was one of Tezuka's early inspirations
I don't know where you got that info, but to my knowledge it was Mickey Mouse and Walt Disney's animation style that influenced Tezuka and others, and basically is the mother of animated design that spawned the evolution of animation in Japan...
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Old 2006-04-07, 08:15   Link #59
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I wonder what came before mickey mouse...

A chicken? An egg? Or was it the other way around?
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Old 2006-04-07, 11:55   Link #60
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
[/B]

Now this is a post that really screams out foolishness towards the end I mean really...

One Piece has exceeded Dragonball How?
I do not remember ever being an manga/anime changing the fighting Genre! Also without Dragonball you would not have any One Piece! As a matter of fact you would not have as many animes that came out today especially you Naruto fans. Hell Dragonball will never be exceded as long as you have animes and mangas basing parts from the manga/anime and are inspired by that Series ALONE. Also by this time Dragonball/Dragonball Z were huge hits and world wide unlike One Piece. Akira Toriyama to many manga artists is GOD including yours truly Oda from One Piece.
Usually when you compare two series, you mainly refer to the quality of both series. And One Piece has a higher quality than the dragon ball series. You can try to read Slayerx's post to see that. But, still you may not see it and in that case no words will be sufficient to change your mind. So I'll stop in terms of convincing here.

Also, maybe you are right that without dragon ball series there wouldn't have been one piece. But, who knows maybe with the absence of Toriyama, Oda would have become that GOD you have mentioned to have his worshippers. And, quite honestly, even without the creation of dragon ball series, I believe that many would have at least come up with partial ideas that will sum up to the overall innovations of dragon ball.

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2006-04-07 at 14:44.
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