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Old 2006-04-13, 13:15   Link #1
Aoie_Emesai
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Is it okay to break a law just because you disagree with it?

Well. well... well.... here's a nice little topic for ya to think for a little longer then 5 seconds.

- Again I found this on slickdeals

Here ya go -- Go Debate on this till everyone's mad.

Here's some rules - (that's if anyone reads this first post after the 20th post)
#1. No short answers, unless you can plainly support it.
#2. Follow rule #1
#3. Avoid unnecessary flaming.
#4. Do as rule #3 says.
#5. Enjoy this thread. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by hsjpatman
Here's the two scenarios.
1. The speed limit is raised to 55.

People will no longer be ticketed for driving 55.
It will send a message to people that it's ok to drive 55.
Amnesty can be now granted to those that were ticketed prior to the new law.

2. The speed limit is not raised to 55.

Amnesty is granted to those that were ticketed for going 55.
People will no longer be ticketed for driving 55.
It will send a message to people that it's ok to drive 55.

In both scenarios, people will feel it's ok to drive 55.
People will not get ticketed for it any more.
People will be given amnesty for prior violations.

What's the difference ?
They both end in the same result.
Is one more dangerous to society in some way ?
Answers -

Spoiler:


As anyone might be able to decifer the exactness of both scenarios, and the meanings that it was suppose it mean are so closely related the difference between them are nano meters apart. I personlly couldn't find much differences, so its yas turn.

ps: I'll refine this thread later. Enjoy.
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Old 2006-04-13, 13:42   Link #2
Kamui4356
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If one is protesting an unjust law, and is willing to accept the consequences, it's ok to break it. This does not apply to things like bank robbery or murder obviously. I'd also say if a law is unenforced, it's also ok, as that means no one particulary cares about it. Besides, there are some strange laws on the books in many places.

What was that about copyright infringement? Hey! What's that behind you?!! *Dash*
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Old 2006-04-13, 17:46   Link #3
Ziv
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The latter scenario degrades people's respect for the law and sets a precedent that it is fine for any speed limit to be broken. The former can cause the same effect if repeated enough.

Last edited by Ziv; 2006-04-13 at 18:03.
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Old 2006-04-13, 17:47   Link #4
Newtyped
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I disagree with most of the law
i think its bullshit i got to go to school
because i should have the freedom to chose what i want to do
I think getting in a fight with someone shouldnt mean more cops
caus i have many problems with many people, and what hurt does fighting do if sum ppl r just asking for it?
thats justice, and if we could pick our fights like that it would save the law the trouble of trying to fight us.
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Old 2006-04-13, 17:56   Link #5
Ziv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
I disagree with most of the law
i think its bullshit i got to go to school
because i should have the freedom to chose what i want to do
I think getting in a fight with someone shouldnt mean more cops
caus i have many problems with many people, and what hurt does fighting do if sum ppl r just asking for it?
thats justice, and if we could pick our fights like that it would save the law the trouble of trying to fight us.
#1. Minors do not have all the rights that an adult would have. Are you really saying that you would rather remain illiterate and have no fundamental concept of arithmetic?
#2. No police force means anyone can pick a fight with anyone else regardless of how they justify it, or whether they even care about justice at all. i.e. someone can walk up and shoot you for no reason. Is it justice? If they say it is, then it is because there's noone to contest it. That's the kind of logic that started the holocaust.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:09   Link #6
Asphyxiate
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Spoiler:

Laws are there for a reason, no matter how trivial it may seem. If you justify breaking a law for any reason, then it will simply continue to cascade. Even if you believe a law is blatantly wrong, there is no reason why you should believe that you can get away with breaking it as if we do not accept responsibility for our actions it will lead to an inevitably crash of the social order. The status quo is here for a reason, if a law is in place then it is in place for a reason. It's why in debate the neg side is impossible to lose if you understand the game.

The system is there to inact what is seen as the most reasonable form of 'justice' if we were all to choose anarchy it is doubtless that our current social structure would collapse upon itself.

Quote:
I disagree with most of the law
i think its bullshit i got to go to school
because i should have the freedom to chose what i want to do
I think getting in a fight with someone shouldnt mean more cops
caus i have many problems with many people, and what hurt does fighting do if sum ppl r just asking for it?
thats justice, and if we could pick our fights like that it would save the law the trouble of trying to fight us.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. It would take too long to explain the entire complex answer but...reading the Ox-Bow Incident would clearly define why individual justice is not equivalent to righteous justice.

You will always have the freedom to dissent, but in doing so it is critical to also understand that you will be punished as the justice system sees fit.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:16   Link #7
Ziv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asphyxiate
Laws are there for a reason, no matter how trivial it may seem. If you justify breaking a law for any reason, then it will simply continue to cascade. Even if you believe a law is blatantly wrong, there is no reason why you should believe that you can get away with breaking it as if we do not accept responsibility for our actions it will lead to an inevitably crash of the social order. The status quo is here for a reason, if a law is in place then it is in place for a reason. It's why in debate the neg side is impossible to lose if you understand the game.
I would partially agree, however, the concept of civil disobedience has made a significant impression on the current society. The main flaw in your argument is that not all laws are made for the good of the whole. Governments, and beaurocracies in particular can easily become corrupt or overcomplicated. This is where petitioning is sopposed to come in, however, we are quickly becoming populated by a majority who would rather live in a brave new world than assume any social responsibility.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:20   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziv
#1. Minors do not have all the rights that an adult would have. Are you really saying that you would rather remain illiterate and have no fundamental concept of arithmetic?
#2. No police force means anyone can pick a fight with anyone else regardless of how they justify it, or whether they even care about justice at all. i.e. someone can walk up and shoot you for no reason. Is it justice? If they say it is, then it is because there's noone to contest it. That's the kind of logic that started the holocaust.
i am 14
I know how to read
i dont think i need anymore learning
by now its just borin crap
and i said fight, not shooting =/
though i say if theres evidence sum1 was provoking u, and u shot them u shouldnt get in trouble.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:41   Link #9
Ziv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
i am 14
I know how to read
i dont think i need anymore learning
by now its just borin crap
So you're saying that you find an ~8th grade education sufficient? Well, ignoring your job prospects in that situation, I would agree with you up to a point. Alot of the classes I've taken (senior in high school) have been completely and utterly pointless and have taught me nothing. Quite a few of them, however, have been useful (probably because I go to a Math/science/computers program at my high school) It depends on why you find school pointless. If it's because the classes have no practical value other than trivia, then I can sympathize with you. If, however, it's because you simply find all your classes boring, then I would disagree. What country are you going to school in? I ask that because I can agree that the US public school system is a piece of crap since it's a government run monopoly that has no incentive to improve whatsoever, however, that's another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
and i said fight, not shooting =/
though i say if theres evidence sum1 was provoking u, and u shot them u shouldnt get in trouble.
Provoking as in how? If it's assault, then I believe self-defense should be an acceptable option regardless of what laws say. If it's just that you have a rivalry or grudge with someone, then no. You're also underestimating the human mind's capability to rationalize and distort. Say you're walking along and accidentally bump into someone (literally). This person, with his friends as witnesses, then beats the crap out of you for provoking him by running into him. Under your scenario, this would be perfectly fine since the justification for the action is all in the opinion of the person administering the judgement. He could also be just as offended with you as you are with the people you hold grudges against. That's why justice is administered by third parties (police forces, courts, etc) in developed countries, and not the people involved in the conflict
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:44   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
i am 14
I know how to read
i dont think i need anymore learning
by now its just borin crap
and i said fight, not shooting =/
though i say if theres evidence sum1 was provoking u, and u shot them u shouldnt get in trouble.
Well, if you haven't learnt everything the school course offers, how do you know you have enough information to decide you don't need any more learning?

And how do you define 'provoking'? Is calling you names provoking? Is flirting with your girlfriend provoking? Is just looking at you the wrong way provoking? If you don't have a definition of what 'provoking' is, then anybody can shoot anybody for anything.

Laws are completely necessary for large groups of people to co-exist. It would be impossible to maintain a technological civilisation without them, let alone create one in the first place.

Of course, whether you choose to obey those laws or not is entirely up to you. But by choosing not to obey them, you are placing yourself outside the bounds of your community and should expect to take the consequences of that. You have to decide whether disobeying the law you choose to is worth the possible penalty of doing so.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:46   Link #11
Asphyxiate
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Personally I don't believe shooting a person could be justified if they say...gave you the finger.

Quote:
I would partially agree, however, the concept of civil disobedience has made a significant impression on the current society. The main flaw in your argument is that not all laws are made for the good of the whole. Governments, and beaurocracies in particular can easily become corrupt or overcomplicated. This is where petitioning is sopposed to come in, however, we are quickly becoming populated by a majority who would rather live in a brave new world than assume any social responsibility.
Yes that is true, there are some laws that are not made for the good of the whole however I think that would primarily apply to relatively minor things, not to felony related charges or even to speed limits. However I believe that even if the laws in place were not for the greater good, they should still be respected until they are changed. I think the main idea that I'm trying to say is, if you disregard one law, will you not try to apply the same thought to yet another? And this will result in a chain reaction. When I'm referring to these laws I'm thinking by the US legal process, not of those in dictator states and such.

It's not that I'm against civil disobedience, I just believe you must accept the responsibilities. We as a whole need a reality check I think, rather then the laws themselves. Every action has a reaction, and people need to understand that, without standardized law there will be chaos. :Upset:

Of course I could be grasping what you are trying to say incorrectly and if that's the case then you have my apologies.I've had so much work dumped on me in preparation of finals and APs that I my ability to comprehend things correctly decided to take a day off.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:47   Link #12
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The government will break under the weight of its people and can't make martyrs out of everyone. Not only do I believe laws you do not agree with should be broken, but you should encourage others to break this law until the injustice of this law is made absolutely clear.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:49   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziv
So you're saying that you find an ~8th grade education sufficient? Well, ignoring your job prospects in that situation, I would agree with you up to a point. Alot of the classes I've taken (senior in high school) have been completely and utterly pointless and have taught me nothing. Quite a few of them, however, have been useful (probably because I go to a Math/science/computers program at my high school) It depends on why you find school pointless. If it's because the classes have no practical value other than trivia, then I can sympathize with you. If, however, it's because you simply find all your classes boring, then I would disagree. What country are you going to school in? I ask that because I can agree that the US public school system is a piece of crap since it's a government run monopoly that has no incentive to improve whatsoever, however, that's another story.



Provoking as in how? If it's assault, then I believe self-defense should be an acceptable option regardless of what laws say. If it's just that you have a rivalry or grudge with someone, then no. You're also underestimating the human mind's capability to rationalize and distort. Say you're walking along and accidentally bump into someone (literally). This person, with his friends as witnesses, then beats the crap out of you for provoking him by running into him. Under your scenario, this would be perfectly fine since the justification for the action is all in the opinion of the person administering the judgement. He could also be just as offended with you as you are with the people you hold grudges against. That's why all justice is administered by third parties (police forces, courts, etc) in developed countries, and not the people involved in the conflict
(9th, i'm in high school)
I go to school in the u.s, since it says i live in CT (the poor area , poor as in i cant even afford to go to college so wuts the point. i dont know any1 that went anyways)

lik if sum1 talks shit about u, and u go and u jump them. Than u get in trouble. I got suspended for pushin my teacher out the way caus i wanted to leave class b4 i took out my razor i had (didnt say i had tho, and i didnt get caught with it) and slashed this kid that was pisin me off. I should have the rit to fuck that kid up, and to push people who try to baricade me.
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Old 2006-04-13, 18:55   Link #14
Ziv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asphyxiate
Personally I don't believe shooting a person could be justified if they say...gave you the finger.



Yes that is true, there are some laws that are not made for the good of the whole however I think that would primarily apply to relatively minor things, not to felony related charges or even to speed limits. However I believe that even if the laws in place were not for the greater good, they should still be respected until they are changed. I think the main idea that I'm trying to say is, if you disregard one law, will you not try to apply the same thought to yet another? And this will result in a chain reaction. When I'm referring to these laws I'm thinking by the US legal process, not of those in dictator states and such.

It's not that I'm against civil disobedience, I just believe you must accept the responsibilities. We as a whole need a reality check I think, rather then the laws themselves. Every action has a reaction, and people need to understand that, without standardized law there will be chaos. :Upset:

Of course I could be grasping what you are trying to say incorrectly and if that's the case then you have my apologies.I've had so much work dumped on me in preparation of finals and APs that I my ability to comprehend things correctly decided to take a day off.
No, you seem to understand me perfectly fine. We're both against anarchy, and the causes of anarchy. I misunderstood you thinking that you were against anyone breaking a law period. I guess I just forgot that under civil disobedience, the law in question, if it is corrupt, will show itself as such simply by being tested with civil disobedience. It won't encourage anarchy because a law which is not corrupt, when proven as such will encourage others to obey it.
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Old 2006-04-13, 19:14   Link #15
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i like anarchy =/
i work best in confusion,
i can take advantage of situations easier on my own
the law doesnt protect me,
the law hidners me
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Old 2006-04-13, 19:27   Link #16
Dorfl
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Quote:
3). Is it okay to break the law, whether you agree with it or not, as long as you are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions?
This used to be my policy in high school, not because I was a rebel or anything but just because sometimes I just couldn't be bothered. Couldn't be bothered to wake up on time or go to the dining hall on time or scrub the bathrooms or go to bed on time or attend school functions, etc. Most of my "sins" were sins of omission, not commission. At my school they'd pile up your offences and punish you once for them, so in you might spend 2 hours weeding the garden in exchange for 3 weeks of sleeping in late. The punishment just wasn't deterrent enough. I suppose that sort of behaviour is rebellion, in a way.
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Old 2006-04-13, 19:28   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
(9th, i'm in high school)
I go to school in the u.s, since it says i live in CT (the poor area , poor as in i cant even afford to go to college so wuts the point. i dont know any1 that went anyways)

lik if sum1 talks shit about u, and u go and u jump them. Than u get in trouble. I got suspended for pushin my teacher out the way caus i wanted to leave class b4 i took out my razor i had (didnt say i had tho, and i didnt get caught with it) and slashed this kid that was pisin me off. I should have the rit to fuck that kid up, and to push people who try to baricade me.
So you're saying that ... you're hopeless and will never escape from your fate, and it's ok for you to attack people with potentially deadly weapons because they say things you disagree with?

To the first, I'd call it a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't want to do the work to get away from it, or you don't see the paths that you can take, you won't get there. To the second ... I'd say that's both childish and morally reprehensible. But I wouldn't say so to your face, out of the pragmatic realization that you'd probably react by trying to stab me in the neck with a pencil or something stupid like that. As for the assertion that you don't need any more education, I mean no offense, but a brief examination of your writing style says otherwise . Regardless, I'm not your guidance counselor (nor your parole officer), and I'm probably not going to convince you of anything.

To the question at hand, I think it's your moral responsibility to break laws that are truly unjust. Particularly, it's your responsibility to break laws you feel are unjust when they involve the lives of other people in a direct way. However, there's a fine line between "unjust law" and "simply idiotic law", and it's important to pick your battles appropriately. I wouldn't give the "civil disobedience" label to someone driving 20 over the limit (in very many cases, speed limits are stupid laws -- particularly on US interstates), or driving drunk or recklessly firing a handgun in a city (both potentially very harmful to innocent people). I would, however, give it to a conscientious objector refusing to participate in military service, or a soldier refusing an order that he believes to be unjust.

The most important part of civil disobedience, in my opinion, is that you aren't harming others by with it. After all ... if the law you're protesting to prevents you from harming others, it's probably not going to meet the criteria for an unjust law.
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Old 2006-04-13, 19:33   Link #18
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i was gonna slash him, but i chose to leave the class.
however the teacher saying i cant leave and blockin the way just made another problem
they had popo up in there (i not afraid of them, i find it kinda funny that they think every1 so intimidated by them. "young man show sum respect, u kno wut i can do" lmao).
also as u can tell, i find it easier to type like such. I have the mental capacity to type in such an appropriate manor, however its rather pointless. I believe to disrespect someone due to their typing is quite immature, and it shows your insecurites with your esteem. Does it make you feel better to belittle me?
anyways i think that the law is a lil to uptight,
i mean its ridiculous all the things i get in trouble for =/
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Old 2006-04-13, 19:54   Link #19
Sakaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
(9th, i'm in high school)
I go to school in the u.s, since it says i live in CT (the poor area , poor as in i cant even afford to go to college so wuts the point. i dont know any1 that went anyways)

lik if sum1 talks shit about u, and u go and u jump them. Than u get in trouble. I got suspended for pushin my teacher out the way caus i wanted to leave class b4 i took out my razor i had (didnt say i had tho, and i didnt get caught with it) and slashed this kid that was pisin me off. I should have the rit to fuck that kid up, and to push people who try to baricade me.
I agree with you, you don't need to finish high school.

With that behavior and attitude I sure that you will get plenty of job skills training in prison.
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Old 2006-04-13, 19:58   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakaki
I agree with you, you don't need to finish high school.

With that behavior and attitude I sure that you will get plenty of job skills training in prison.
the sad truth is i might =/
but i did not try to get smart for nuthin
unlik many ppl here, i hav one goal in life
and me and my bestfriend swore on our lives to uphold this goal.
it gives me a purpose, and its probally the reason i'm not in jail now
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