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Old 2006-04-17, 17:37   Link #21
Newtyped
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Also in space there is no real above or below.
any direction would pretty much be the same no matter which way you are facing. also cordnating a fleet of ships shouldnt be to hard if they have been around long enough. The navy sure can command their fleets well, and thats because years of perfection. Space stratergies should exist after means of space combat are achieved.
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:04   Link #22
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Not to mention advances in computing will make coordination in that regard much easier. But truly realistic space combat will probably look nothing like anything we've seen in entertainment.

It would take place at far beyond visual range, involve missiles and point defense, and maybe a laser or two. And be pretty slow, with exchanges taking minutes or maybe even hours.
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:05   Link #23
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no space combat needs to be close.
shells cannot travel far in zero gravity,
and laser technology may not be able to carry such a large amount of heat across freezing temperatures, however large it is
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:19   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
no space combat needs to be close.
shells cannot travel far in zero gravity,
...........................................

You do know what zero gravity means, right? No gravity? No force pulling stuff down or any other direction, hence allowing you to shoot really far without angling in any way to try to compensate?

And you know that cold vacuum is VACUUM for a reason right? No air? No air resistance or friction? All of which allow anything in space to travel farther and faster than in air?

Close? Do you have any idea how fast a space shuttle orbits the Earth? Last I recall it was 90 minutes per complete orbit, and that is HELLA faster than your car or mine. Wanna try fighting in space at those speeds? Pfft! You'll be passing by each other faster than your eye could catch. Maybe with a computer you can hit stuff, but most likely space combat will involve ships sitting or strafing at thousands of kilometers apart from each other, lobbing missiles and lasers at each other. There's a better chance at dodging incoming fire or out-ranging each other. The most common munition will likely be nuclear weapons, and fighting at point-blank range with these is stupid.

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and laser technology may not be able to carry such a large amount of heat across freezing temperatures, however large it is
One, laser is light. Perhaps in some truly extreme temperatures light can be affected, but in space, no. Light is not affected by the temperatures of space. Otherwise if light could no carry such heat across space, then how come our planet is so warm?

You only start to lose light at huge distances like light-days or light-years, and I hardly doubt, without some extreme tech, that space battles in the foreseeable future will take place at those kinds of distances.

There is so much wrong with what you just posted that..... just go brush up some physics, okay?
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:22   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
no space combat needs to be close.
shells cannot travel far in zero gravity

Comets have been doing so for ages, why wouldn't shells be able to
go long distances, even when out of fuel they would keep going

but I do agree that the effective range of weapons can only go so far:

"....Incoming missle, ETA: 4 days, 6 hours and 12 minutes..."
"Game over Man! We're done for!"
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:24   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
...........................................

You do know what zero gravity means, right? No gravity? No force pulling stuff down or any other direction, hence allowing you to shoot really far without angling in any way to try to compensate?

And you know that cold vacuum is VACUUM for a reason right? No air? No air resistance or friction? All of which allow anything in space to travel farther and faster than in air?

Close? Do you have any idea how fast a space shuttle orbits the Earth? Last I recall it was 90 minutes per complete orbit, and that is HELLA faster than your car or mine. Wanna try fighting in space at those speeds? Pfft! You'll be passing by each other faster than your eye could catch. Maybe with a computer you can hit stuff, but most likely space combat will involve ships sitting or strafing at thousands of kilometers apart from each other, lobbing missiles and lasers at each other. There's a better chance at dodging incoming fire or out-ranging each other. The most common munition will likely be nuclear weapons, and fighting at point-blank range with these is stupid.



One, laser is light. Perhaps in some truly extreme temperatures light can be affected, but in space, no. Light is not affected by the temperatures of space. Otherwise if light could no carry such heat across space, then how come our planet is so warm?

You only start to lose light at huge distances like light-days or light-years, and I hardly doubt, without some extreme tech, that space battles in the foreseeable future will take place at those kinds of distances.

There is so much wrong with what you just posted that..... just go brush up some physics, okay?
i thought that no gravity means stuff dont move =/
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:38   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat®
but I do agree that the effective range of weapons can only go so far:

"....Incoming missle, ETA: 4 days, 6 hours and 12 minutes..."
"Game over Man! We're done for!"
It's true that effective range of weapons can only go so far. But "so far" is tens of thousands of kilometers, which is pretty far.

Quote:
i thought that no gravity means stuff dont move =/
The word you're searching for is inertia (or maybe force). Although if there was no inertia.....well, it's hard to put what it'd be like into words.


Gravity is just another force. In terms of the planet earth, it's a force that's pulling (although every force is really a push, never a pull, but for the sake of simplicity...) everyone to the ground. If you tossed a ball upwards, it would come back down.

In space though, the force of gravity is so negligible that if you toss a ball one way, it's bound to keep going for who knows how long until something stops it.

That's why combat range in space will be very very large. It doesn't take much force to accelerate something in an environment where there is very little other force acting on whatever you're trying to propel at however-insane-velocities-you-want. And since any object in deep space is likely to keep going that way, you don't need any more force to keep that projectile going as well.
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:39   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
It's true that effective range of weapons can only go so far. But "so far" is tens of thousands of kilometers, which is pretty far.



The word you're searching for is inertia (or maybe force). Although if there was no inertia.....well, it's hard to put what it'd be like into words.


Gravity is just another force. In terms of the planet earth, it's a force that's pulling (although every force is really a push, never a pull, but for the sake of simplicity...) everyone to the ground. If you tossed a ball upwards, it would come back down.

In space though, the force of gravity is so negligible that if you toss a ball one way, it's bound to keep going for who knows how long until something stops it.

That's why combat range in space will be very very large. It doesn't take much force to accelerate something in an environment where there is very little other force acting on whatever you're trying to propel at however-insane-velocities-you-want. And since any object in deep space is likely to keep going that way, you don't need any more force to keep that projectile going as well.
o but isnt it freezin in space? wouldnt that kewl down lasers and rockets?
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:40   Link #29
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http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/


There's a pretty informative site on the whole thing.
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:49   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
o but isnt it freezin in space? wouldnt that kewl down lasers and rockets?
First you have to understand what heat or the lack of heat is. It's basically how fast an object's molecules are vibrating. The more they vibrate, the hotter the object gets.

Now, what is light? Light is basically a photon or collection of photons. These are sub-atomic particles. They are NOT molecules. So how exactly could you cool down or heat up light?

Light can heat up stuff though since those photons bounce into the molecules of an object and get them moving, hence heat them up.

Therefore, all the heat you may feel in space is either through light, or through radiation. Or if you're touching a warm part of a ship's hull. Or another person. Whatever.

As for rockets, yes they get cool, but not cool enough to freeze them or anything.
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Old 2006-04-17, 18:55   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ

Comets have been doing so for ages, why wouldn't shells be able to
go long distances, even when out of fuel they would keep going

but I do agree that the effective range of weapons can only go so far:

"....Incoming missle, ETA: 4 days, 6 hours and 12 minutes..."
"Game over Man! We're done for!"
actually commits are in orbit around the form closest to them witht the most mass. While i cant speculate how a commet can fall out of its Lagrangian point of an object, (i simply dont kno that much bout this) its probally due to an irregular parabola. of course just another n-body problem ^^;;
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Old 2006-04-17, 19:04   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
First you have to understand what heat or the lack of heat is. It's basically how fast an object's molecules are vibrating. The more they vibrate, the hotter the object gets.

Now, what is light? Light is basically a photon or collection of photons. These are sub-atomic particles. They are NOT molecules. So how exactly could you cool down or heat up light?

Light can heat up stuff though since those photons bounce into the molecules of an object and get them moving, hence heat them up.

Therefore, all the heat you may feel in space is either through light, or through radiation. Or if you're touching a warm part of a ship's hull. Or another person. Whatever.

As for rockets, yes they get cool, but not cool enough to freeze them or anything.
lasers however deal damage with heat. The problem i have with lasers, is that since space has no heat, that the lasers might not be able to achieve a high enough heat to do enough damage.
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Old 2006-04-17, 19:11   Link #33
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lasers however deal damage with heat. The problem i have with lasers, is that since space has no heat, that the lasers might not be able to achieve a high enough heat to do enough damage.
Ehem. You misinterpret the heat part. Lasers are photons. Which hit a target object's molecules and heat IT up. The laser isn't actually heat, it heats up the target is what it does.
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Old 2006-04-17, 19:25   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
Ehem. You misinterpret the heat part. Lasers are photons. Which hit a target object's molecules and heat IT up. The laser isn't actually heat, it heats up the target is what it does.
however if you know about thermodynamics and about the laws concerning entropy you would know that there needs to be a certain amount of heat in teh surrounding for more heat to eb generated and carried logn distances. While you are correct stating the sun carries heat, you forgot that the suns heat produces incoherent photons, while lasers are coherent.
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Old 2006-04-17, 19:49   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Newtyped
however if you know about thermodynamics and about the laws concerning entropy you would know that there needs to be a certain amount of heat in teh surrounding for more heat to eb generated and carried logn distances. While you are correct stating the sun carries heat, you forgot that the suns heat produces incoherent photons, while lasers are coherent.
Is someone else posting for you?

Anyway, yes, there has to be something else for there to be something new. I never once said that the laser came from nowhere. Obviously it needs a source of energy. Surrounding heat however has no real effect on it.

And for the second part, I never said anything about the sun. You're trying to make me out to be saying something that I didn't. And both sunlight and lasers heat up stuff, simple as that. One does it better than the other, but overall the main point still rings true.
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Old 2006-04-17, 20:14   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
Is someone else posting for you?

Anyway, yes, there has to be something else for there to be something new. I never once said that the laser came from nowhere. Obviously it needs a source of energy. Surrounding heat however has no real effect on it.

And for the second part, I never said anything about the sun. You're trying to make me out to be saying something that I didn't. And both sunlight and lasers heat up stuff, simple as that. One does it better than the other, but overall the main point still rings true.
thats not remotely funny -.- (i told u i don lik school because i kno everything they try to teach)
(sorry i take long time to reply, my homeboy just chirped me)
and as you know the laser is heat. it heats stuff up because its traveling heat. i cant imagine how far a high power laser can travel with no temperature ^^;;.
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Old 2006-04-17, 20:43   Link #37
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thats not remotely funny -.- (i told u i don lik school because i kno everything they try to teach)
Actually you didn't tell me anything.

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(sorry i take long time to reply, my homeboy just chirped me)
and as you know the laser is heat. it heats stuff up because its traveling heat. i cant imagine how far a high power laser can travel with no temperature ^^;;.
Er, no, a laser is photons not heat. It heats up stuff along the way cause it hits molecules in between and causes them to vibrate, hence they get hotter. Laser itself is not traveling heat.

As for infrared, just as an aside, that's also not heat itself but simply a wavelength of light that is emmitted in the presence of hot objects. Infrared is not heat itself. Since it's present near hot objects we typically assume it's a sort of "heat sensor" but we're not actually sensing the heat, instead we're sensing a specific type of light that is given off by a hot object.
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Old 2006-04-17, 20:52   Link #38
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Question: How much damage does a nuclear weapon do when it misses its target but detonates in proximity, say a 1 MT device detonating about 1 km from a 300m warship in space?
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Old 2006-04-17, 20:52   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
Actually you didn't tell me anything.



Er, no, a laser is photons not heat. It heats up stuff along the way cause it hits molecules in between and causes them to vibrate, hence they get hotter. Laser itself is not traveling heat.

As for infrared, just as an aside, that's also not heat itself but simply a wavelength of light that is emmitted in the presence of hot objects. Infrared is not heat itself. Since it's present near hot objects we typically assume it's a sort of "heat sensor" but we're not actually sensing the heat, instead we're sensing a specific type of light that is given off by a hot object.
we are talking about lasers meant to cut (forgot that name sorry lol ^^;
no but photons carry heat. laser is traveling heat
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Old 2006-04-18, 11:58   Link #40
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Originally Posted by reinloch
Question: How much damage does a nuclear weapon do when it misses its target but detonates in proximity, say a 1 MT device detonating about 1 km from a 300m warship in space?
Don't underestimate nukes. That warship is toast. Its hard to say whether the absence of an atmosphere makes the nuke more or less deadly.

You could possibly make a warship that could survive near-miss nuke blasts, but your ships are going to have hull thickness in the tens of meters. Think a solid tube of titanium. Even then, most of the exterior systems are going to be destroyed.

Once you start slinging nukes about, space combat becomes a zero sum game. Once you are detected, you launch your long range nukes - expect that weapon travel times could take days, and that your target is going to launch nuclear countermeasures to destroy your nukes in transit.

Space combat could start to look a lot like submarine combat. Lots of stealthy designs, doppler radar to determine relative speed and heading (so you know where to launch your missiles to intercept), towed array (your active sensors dragged 30/50km behind you) and advance intelligence (UAVs etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newtyped
we are talking about lasers meant to cut (forgot that name sorry lol ^^;
no but photons carry heat. laser is traveling heat
No a laser is travelling light. Once those photons impact matter they will excite and heat it. The absence of matter between them and their target is in fact a good thing, as the laser won't lose energy heating the intervening air molecules that it would normally encounter in an atmosphere.

An ideal laser weapon would not 'cut' a hull but dump as much of its energy in as concentrated a spot as possible in as short a time as possible. Instantaneously boiling off a section of the hull and causing a surface explosion that would cause more damage.

'heat' is a property of matter. In order to transport heat from one ship to another you would fire a plasma (very hot gas). THough a favoured staple of science-fiction, plasma isn't that effective as a weapon really. Slow, by comparison with light, which limits its range, its charged, so its trajectory will be affected by magnetic fields (thats its countermeasure right there) and the one thing a hot gas won't want to do is stay in a nice coherent beam.
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