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Old 2006-04-19, 21:16   Link #81
Linker
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the mines are small in size and signature, they can be built to provide stealth and... um... stealth... hard to target til you get close, and if you are clear enough they just rocket towards you and detonate their (perferably nuclear) payload, if you ahve them in a stationary minefield the enemy would only know the location of them at best, if you deploy them before a battle it might make for a nasty surprise...

of course sending random junk their way might work, unless they are spread out far apart and only home in or signatures of large ships (we arn't talking about passive mines here, then you really need ALOT, these mines need to have a single burn booster which go towards the target's predicted position)

alternatively you can have shotgun type weapons or large area effect weapons to blow your way through...

if you hide them in asteroids sooner or later the enemy will just start blowing up every asteroid that cross their path.. heh
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Old 2006-04-19, 22:32   Link #82
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
That reminds of the Irresponsible Captain Tylor Ep where Tylor order all ships garbage jettsion in fornt of the enemy ship to provide cover for escape I just love that series.
Really? I've never seen Irresponsible Captain Tylor. I may have to hunt up the series somewhere (I think it's licensed). That sounds funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linker
the mines are small in size and signature, they can be built to provide stealth and... um... stealth... hard to target til you get close, and if you are clear enough they just rocket towards you and detonate their (perferably nuclear) payload, if you ahve them in a stationary minefield the enemy would only know the location of them at best, if you deploy them before a battle it might make for a nasty surprise..
Ahh, I see. Difference in terminology. That might work, but of course you can't really protect your planet that well with them as there would be a problem with you getting out through them. I was thinking of traditional minefields, you're talking more like guided smartbomb satellites. And if that's the case, the enemy would just invest in ways to foil the detection signatures. And then you would develop ways to make better detection algorithims, etc, etc.

Really it's just a never-ending circle.
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Old 2006-04-20, 06:33   Link #83
Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
That reminds of the Irresponsible Captain Tylor Ep where Tylor order all ships garbage jettsion in fornt of the enemy ship to provide cover for escape I just love that series.
He was a good man, Captain Tylor. That salute scene gave me shivers it was so cool.

I thought about the whole mine thing too (again reminding me of why the Kor-Ah in SC2 were dangerous) but I figure there'd just be too much crap up there to set one off. And when one goes off it'd make more debris that could set off other mines, detonation sensativity depending.

As for them harming the planet, if a mine can survive reentry then it's not gonna blow up when something runs into it.

I wanna see them make two animes. One that's hyper-realistic in the space combat physics and one that just throws it all out the window.
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Old 2006-04-20, 08:09   Link #84
Diaboso
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You know I have sean some anime that they use bullets in space. I was wondering how well would a bullet travel in space (no gravity, no wind resistance.) and would super armored space hulks even be scatched by bulets...

another thing is how well would robots work in space. I mean astronaus have a time floting around trying to grab stuff and you dont realy need legs and the idea of fighter bays letting out ships and bots to the vacume of space from in your ship is just unrealalistic.

I also think the best way to defeat an enemy ship is to send bording partys to take it for your own.
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Old 2006-04-20, 10:46   Link #85
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the idea of fighter bays letting out ships and bots to the vacume of space from in your ship is just unrealalistic.
Only if its a real deep space. Imagine the orbital defence station, first the bots form the first line of defence, but some enemies might break through and land on the planet, and then the humanoid robots would pursue them there in urbanistic terrain. Makes sense.

Except for the one thing that mechas will never ever make sense in being an efficient weapon of war. Not in space, not wherever.
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Old 2006-04-20, 12:27   Link #86
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy666
Really? I've never seen Irresponsible Captain Tylor. I may have to hunt up the series somewhere (I think it's licensed). That sounds funny.
You haven't seen Irresponsible Captain Tylor yet Tylor is probably one of the smartest dramady in the history of anime. Ep1 had rolling on floor laughting till my stomach hurt. It is avaible in the 4 disc dvd set thats really cheap.
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Old 2006-04-20, 12:29   Link #87
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
You haven't seen Irresponsible Captain Tylor yet Tylor is probably one of the smartest dramady in the history of anime. Ep1 had rolling on floor laughting till my stomach hurt. It is avaible in the 4 disc dvd set thats really cheap.
Well, generally I like my science fiction straight in thick book form; however, I have to admit that the real reason I'd never watched it was because of the name (which seems kind of silly to me); however, I'm definitely going to check it out on your recommendation.
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Old 2006-04-20, 14:13   Link #88
Linker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diaboso
You know I have sean some anime that they use bullets in space. I was wondering how well would a bullet travel in space (no gravity, no wind resistance.) and would super armored space hulks even be scatched by bulets...

another thing is how well would robots work in space. I mean astronaus have a time floting around trying to grab stuff and you dont realy need legs and the idea of fighter bays letting out ships and bots to the vacume of space from in your ship is just unrealalistic.

I also think the best way to defeat an enemy ship is to send bording partys to take it for your own.
@the bullet travel thing:
low gravity and no wind resistance means bullets travel nice and straight in space and won't slow down at all
Armor can be pierced if your bullet has enough energy and is designed for it, a modern sniper rifle is fully capable of piercing a tank, there's nothing stopping you from loading armor piercing bullets into a machine gun, as long as it can handle the shock and weight of the bullets

@robots:
if you are talking about robots in gundam, they DON'T work. The space battles in most (not all) gundam series are hideously unrealistic. the fact that most space robots you see have legs is either because the artist cant' think outside the box or that they are actually convertable for land use.

@fighter bays:
for huge fighter bays they always give the excuse of some force field keeping the air in.... we cant' do that currently or in the forseeable future.... the closest thing we have to a forcefield is to use belts to generate a large electrostatic field that'd trap particels in it...

to be a tad more realistic fighters should be stored in small individual bays w/ airlocks, that way can be depressurized without pumping out a football field of gas. (i'm thinking those fighter launch tubes in battlestar galactica)

@boarding parties:
That's actually the first tactic the romans did when they didn't have adequate weaponry to sink a ship, but if you have a fat cannon that can launch nukes and enough information to get it pretty close to the enemy, then there's no reason to endanger marines for capturing.
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Old 2006-04-20, 14:52   Link #89
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Sure, a 2 year old can go around a mine, a skilled pilot can go around a 100 mines
but how many fleets actually can go around 100.000 mines loaded with detection/contactsensors
and linked with eachother to blow around the first triggered mine

Wanna go through there with "stealth"? it better not hit one of them, because it would be toast
so maybe you could get a few spies in
but a ship/force large enough to take on/out a planet?

So you wanna blast your way through a minefield?
Great, at least I'll know your coming and be ready to throw everything at you
including the kitchen sink


Or do you guys think it's a coincedence that 100000 tonnes of spacegarbage just happens
to put a hole in your field?

"Gee wizz Joe, 20 just went off again, that makes 500 now, must be nothing huh?"

WWII had minefields still taking out ships years after the war ended
Iraq had radar,......
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Old 2006-04-20, 15:38   Link #90
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ
Sure, a 2 year old can go around a mine, a skilled pilot can go around a 100 mines
but how many fleets actually can go around 100.000 mines loaded with detection/contactsensors
and linked with eachother to blow around the first triggered mine

Wanna go through there with "stealth"? it better not hit one of them, because it would be toast
so maybe you could get a few spies in
but a ship/force large enough to take on/out a planet?

So you wanna blast your way through a minefield?
Great, at least I'll know your coming and be ready to throw everything at you
including the kitchen sink


Or do you guys think it's a coincedence that 100000 tonnes of spacegarbage just happens
to put a hole in your field?

"Gee wizz Joe, 20 just went off again, that makes 500 now, must be nothing huh?"

WWII had minefields still taking out ships years after the war ended
Iraq had radar,......
100,000 is a lot of mines but in the vastness of space, 100,000 is nothing. For a minefoeld to effective you need enough mines to cover all the space surrounding your planet and that would effectvely cut your planet form the rest of space.
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Old 2006-04-20, 16:26   Link #91
Asphyxiate
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Well actually...

As the current estimate stands, there are over a million pieces of man made debris orbiting just earth, and that's just the amount detectable by radar and such. (More then a centimeter wide etc.) Consider a time in the future when you could construct a mine field in space...and I'm sure you can imagine the exponential increase in the amount of debris floating out there. It's only been 50 years and we've already started to turn earth's backyard into a garbage dump. The estimate does not count all the other pieces of junk dumped by various intergalactic probes, satellites, or landing crafts that have left earth's orbit for other places.

A pea-sized ball of space debris moving at orbital speed is equivalent of a 400-lb safe travelling at 60 miles per hour. Getting hit by a tennis ball sized piece of debris would be comparable to being blown up by 25 sticks of dynamite...I think that would be enough to trigger any mine.

Above examples obtained from the web, since all I could think up of was 'space debris can put holes through spacecraft walls' and that's not very impressive.

Also you need to take in account natural structures speeding around up there, there are millions upon millions of small and medium sized asteroids in just out galaxy that pinball around, it's just our atmosphere that renders of oblivious of these things.

Not to mention that the Milky Way is pretty stable compared to the conditions in other sections of the universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat®
Or do you guys think it's a coincedence that 100000 tonnes of spacegarbage just happens
to put a hole in your field?

"Gee wizz Joe, 20 just went off again, that makes 500 now, must be nothing huh?"
I'd think both would be very plausible actually.

Space isn't just a giant vast black landscape, think of it more as a very condensed electron cloud.

Edit: Sorry NSW! I edited my post lol, just in case someone believed that a 400-lb safe wouldn't trigger a mine I decided to add the dynamite part.

Last edited by Asphyxiate; 2006-04-20 at 16:56.
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Old 2006-04-20, 16:30   Link #92
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asphyxiate
A pea-sized ball of space debris moving at orbital speed is equivalent of a 400-lb safe travelling at 60 miles per hour...tell me that won't trigger a mine.
Forget about triggering a mine: That is a mine.
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Old 2006-04-20, 16:43   Link #93
SWPIGWANG
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If you are interested in "Hard" sci-fi space warfare, try the following site

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3t.html

Tons to stuff to educate yourself in.
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Old 2006-04-20, 17:05   Link #94
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asphyxiate
A pea-sized ball of space debris moving at orbital speed is equivalent of a 400-lb safe travelling at 60 miles per hour.
strangly - in space I only need to tap a 400lb safe traveling at 60mph with my finger
to make it change direction

if the "pea story" was true, no spaceshuttle or satellite would survive more than a day in space

I know, a minefield big enough to protect an entire system would need to be huge
with numbers in the billions

but compare the cost and resources ant time to create a minefield to a systemwide
detection network
one can say "technical advances bla, bla" but the same goes for mines
it's not like these mines need to be light and flimsy like the tinfoil we send up now
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Old 2006-04-20, 17:23   Link #95
Asphyxiate
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Alright, if you visit the official NASA site, it proclaims that space shuttles are built to withstand impact from debris, and can survive impacts from objects of less then 10 cm in diameter.

They also track and use sensors to detect major pieces of debris those larger then 10 cm in diamter, and the space shuttle is programmed to automatically maneuver out of the way if the chance of collision is greater then 1 in 10,000.

Now turn that around and imagine doing that type of maneuvering with a field of mines. Not to mention that mines are built to detonate and are not built to take repeated abuse from flinging objects.

Edit: Mua...I'm forgetful...but...

How exactly would redirecting a 400-lb safe matter in a mine field? Let's not forget that it wouldn't just be one 400-lb safe, there are thousands and thousands of these little things hurtling around.
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Old 2006-04-20, 17:23   Link #96
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat®
strangly - in space I only need to tap a 400lb safe traveling at 60mph with my finger
to make it change direction
Where did you get that idea? F=ma, regardless of being in space or on the ground. Lack of gravity does not mean a lack of intertia or lack of mass. You will need to exert a good bit of force to stop a 400lb object traveling at 60mph. You could make it change direction of course, but how much?
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Old 2006-04-20, 18:40   Link #97
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ
strangely - in space I only need to tap a 400lb safe traveling at 60mph with my finger to make it change direction....
Wouldn't it change your direction a lot more than it changes yours? Like send you into a mine?

Thanks, guys, for this thread. Really interesting.

I've read elsewhere the thought that the distances make space warfare almost impossible, and that future wars might be an exchange of unstoppable planet-razings.

I guess that depends on how effective the minefields are. Knowing the depths of our human incompetence, I suspect friendly vessels would sometimes take wrong routes through badly-charted minefields. Perhaps one method of war would be cordoning off a planet by disarranging its minefields. And I expect a mine stealth/detection arms race would be a continuing thing.
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Old 2006-04-20, 19:41   Link #98
reinloch
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Several things:

1. Minefields are not showstoppers. But they have their pros - they stall enemy forces. While the defender assembles/prepares/maneuvers his forces for battle.

2. A determined force will not have any problems clearing a minefield. The minefield is only effective if defending forces are on station to exploit the enemy mine-clearing endeavor.

3. These mines use IIR sensors (at least) or some advance variants of passive optical sensors which do not react to space junk. Upon identifying a valid target, they propel themselves along a precalculated intercept course, probably making minor corrections with their limited maneuverbility. Given the massive relative velocities of cruising warships, if they miss their intercept, they probably can't maneuver to intercept again, so they will explode in proximity with a frag warhead.

4. Due to the vastness of space, mines are deployed near strategic locations like bases, depots, transit lines, etc. But this affects civilian shipping, since IFF codes can't be issued to civilian vessels.
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Old 2006-04-20, 20:54   Link #99
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reinloch
Several things:

1. Minefields are not showstoppers. But they have their pros - they stall enemy forces. While the defender assembles/prepares/maneuvers his forces for battle.

2. A determined force will not have any problems clearing a minefield. The minefield is only effective if defending forces are on station to exploit the enemy mine-clearing endeavor.

3. These mines use IIR sensors (at least) or some advance variants of passive optical sensors which do not react to space junk. Upon identifying a valid target, they propel themselves along a precalculated intercept course, probably making minor corrections with their limited maneuverbility. Given the massive relative velocities of cruising warships, if they miss their intercept, they probably can't maneuver to intercept again, so they will explode in proximity with a frag warhead.

4. Due to the vastness of space, mines are deployed near strategic locations like bases, depots, transit lines, etc. But this affects civilian shipping, since IFF codes can't be issued to civilian vessels.
This actually makes a lot of sense (it's similar to how minefields are used currently, though obviously the mines would have to be significantly more advanced). But as mentioned, it's only a stopgap. The problem is that when laying thousands of mines, it becomes expensive. Resources are limited, rather than sinking that money into a minefield, it could be spent on something else. I'm not saying mines aren't a good answer, but there's a limit to what you could do with them. If I sunk my entire defense budget into building enormous protective minefields, I've got nothing to actually fight with.

I agree with Kaoru, this has been my favorite thread all week, I've learned a ton from researching things that were mentioned here.
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Old 2006-04-21, 12:45   Link #100
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reinloch
Several things:

1. Minefields are not showstoppers. But they have their pros - they stall enemy forces. While the defender assembles/prepares/maneuvers his forces for battle.

2. A determined force will not have any problems clearing a minefield. The minefield is only effective if defending forces are on station to exploit the enemy mine-clearing endeavor.

3. These mines use IIR sensors (at least) or some advance variants of passive optical sensors which do not react to space junk. Upon identifying a valid target, they propel themselves along a precalculated intercept course, probably making minor corrections with their limited maneuverbility. Given the massive relative velocities of cruising warships, if they miss their intercept, they probably can't maneuver to intercept again, so they will explode in proximity with a frag warhead.

4. Due to the vastness of space, mines are deployed near strategic locations like bases, depots, transit lines, etc. But this affects civilian shipping, since IFF codes can't be issued to civilian vessels.
Thank you, finally someone willing to die with me

Mines are a great and very nasty early warning system
unlike listeningposts, you can't take 'em out with 1 shot, easily replacable,
they don't take ages to build and they don't need lots of power
you don't have to keep them secret

As "stupid" as mines are they are quite foolproof
and even when they're old can still pose a threat
They may not discriminate, but anyone not knowing where they are are not your ally
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