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Old 2006-04-21, 23:15   Link #21
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celcius
Yes, but the possibilities of time travel could increase the number of irresponsible people, seeing as they can just as easily go back and do something they had to do that they didn't do.

*erm* As long as events don't seem too awkward or chaotic, I don't think having episodes shown at random are that bad.
No one controls the possibilities of Time travel, in the same way no one controls the possibilities of E=mC^2
You can't hide the truth from the devious, but only from the innocent.

So how is the number of irresponsible people going to increase? Those who are responsible will stay responsible.

As for random order? Makes no differerence to me. It fits the style of the story, in that it would make things more interesting.
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Old 2006-04-21, 23:55   Link #22
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Well... maybe this is little consolation but at this moment to make a time machine require you to build something that is about 2x the length of Earth (and a bit wider) and you have to make this guy spin faster than the Earth to offset time dilation that we get as we revolve about the sun... keep in mind that it's a 1 way trip as well, and that's a ride everyone on Earth will partake.

There is 1 way around the spiral issue that we've been resorting. Push the technological envelope in any way in order to outdo the opposition. If usage and abuse is inevitable, one must change faster to compensate and to survive.

Otherwise you have to be the villain yourself. Instead of letting the world fail you, you rather fail the world. For there is no 1 human that is perfect to act as a true "honest broker".

Machiavelli's concept of detante > "There is no avoiding war; it is only postponed to the advantage of others" works as well, provided that you continually obtain 1 edge after the next to hold the adversary at bay. Strangely enough, this creates a stagnating scenario where no side moves and entrenchment occurs...



He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future. ~G.Orwell.
He who controls the past, commands the future. He who commands the future, conquers the past. ~Kane.
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Old 2006-04-22, 00:09   Link #23
panzerfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard
If that's your definition of how to control the future... it's cheaper to reprint all the history books ^_^
Well... as history shows, this is what every dictatorship does anyway. First emperor of China had the Confucian scholars killed and books burnt, Fujiwara when taken power did in fact conduct some radical things to the Buddhist sects in Japan, Hitler setup Youth camp and instituted Aryan research institute, Mao had his cultural revolution...

but's that's getting ahead to what we're out here to talk about.. Haruhi.

Spoiler:


Hmm... going back to quantum.

We all know of light and waves. Light and wave, be it visible, UV, Inflared, radio... they are the same thing.
We all know that matter is in fact a form of energy. Energy can be expressed in terms of waves...
We all know that electricity is related to magneticism. Electricity and energy shares common unit of measurement in terms of heat (joule).
Matter and antimatter all can wind up as energy...


Einstein said "God does not play dice" in response to Quantum Mechanics. He used his inference with a reason.
For our intent and purposes, we can well say that everything is measured in possibility and distributions as absolute precision just doesn't happen... electron scanning microscope, by the time when it 'sees' an electron, would've knocked the electron out of orbit and you would end up with ... nothing.

Uncertainty principle on a macroscopic level is nearly never observable. Water cannot flow out of the cup due to how low the possibility of observing such a spectacle is, yet it does happen. It make take more than the estimated age of the universe before you can do what Miss Deep does in R.O.D, but there is a possibility.
This inconsistent views from the microscopic to macroscopic wreaks havoc if you want a theory that'll explain everything, going from why is it you're standing and not falling through the 'relatively' large amount of space between you and the very earth (subsequently, how do we do that if we wanted to?) to why is it black hole actually gives out EM wave... how is there any room to guess when everything works like clockwork when you deal with anything larger than an atom? Answering this stuff would explain alot of strange things happening in chemistry and biology from how it looks...

Then again, 'the only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible' and 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

I find it rather scary that I am actually reading into this stuff for no particular reason but to make sense of this anime...
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-22 at 06:19.
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Old 2006-04-22, 09:32   Link #24
celcius
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Determinism deals with studying an object's behavior and trying to come up with a pattern. Take for example, the sun. We all know that it will rise at dawn, and it will set at dusk. We don't know the exact minutes and seconds though. Other factors are responsible for the varying times, and these are called noise. If a theory/school of thought (whatever) that focuses on finding a pattern provides accepts that there are random factors involved, I guess that more or less says that the world is "random". Due to a multitude of variables that affect objects, I highly think that anything can be measured with pinpoint precision. (WTF am I saying?)
Quote:
I find it rather scary that I am actually reading into this stuff for no particular reason but to make sense of this anime...
No shi-? You mean you don't know this, cause you certainly sound like you do... I actually had to re-read your post to grasp that. (yeah, I wasn't listening back in class).
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Old 2006-04-22, 12:41   Link #25
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yea... I never did study quantum mechanics and it's been a long time since I had to do any physics.

Conclusion 1 from all of this is that insanity of random probability killed absolutism, but only relatively.
Conclusion 2 might be that distribution of likelihood should replace all the constants.
Conclusion 3 is that due to the principle of nonlocality, any 2 particles within this universe are not independent... subsequently means we can have an atom larger than this earth someday.

I assume then that the divine in effect manipulates the possibility of a myriad of factors and 'rigs' the game to make things like passing through wall happen.

The only place where we can see the understanding of our world breaking into pieces is within silicon chips. Even now we wind up with bits of information mysteriously vanishing into thin air and popping about in some other conduit. It doesn't show up since we're using more than 1 electon per bit but it's going there.
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Old 2006-04-22, 15:50   Link #26
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It's called quantum tunneling. And yes, it is an issue that gets worse as chips decrease in size. Or more precisely, as the insulator walls become thinner, it becomes increasingly likely that the electrons passing through the conduit will literally jump from inside the pathway to outside of it, even though there is a physical barrier in place. That's why the last few generations of cpus had considerable heat and power consumption issues(most notably the P4 Prescott cores). The electrons inside the chip basically leak out causing heat and requiring more energy to replace those lost electrons.

And we aren't heading towards using invidual electrons as bits. Not in traditional Turing computers at any rate. In quantum computing, the atom as a whole is used as an information medium, not just the electron. In theory, fundamental aspects of each atom such as its spin can be used to convey information, although all the details have yet to be worked out.
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Old 2006-04-22, 16:01   Link #27
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It feels almost as if to use anything observable state the items need to generate a noticable gravitational pull (an atom would do it). Thnx for the info on that as that would explain why is it that the Prescott and Palomino chips are hotter than the surface of the sun.

... and this stuff gets odder. It seems that time travel going back and forth is doable if you invoke the idea of 'manifold', 'Hilbert space' and superstring to explain everything although it is a long stretch. Damn. It makes me feel that gr.10-12 physics is lying about how things work a little...
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-22 at 16:22.
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Old 2006-04-22, 17:33   Link #28
Kaoru Chujo
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This discussion is reminding me of the discussions we had in the Noein thread. That excellent show was based on a (somewhat loose) version of the many worlds interpretation of quantum theory.

At the quantum level, we have indeterminacy. I don't see this extending to the macroscopic level, as most science fiction versions of it do, but at the macroscopic level, we also have indeterminacy, because of non-linear dynamics/chaos theory/butterfly effect. So the future is supposedly impossible to predict, since (as in the Hitchhiker's Guyide) you'd have to run a computer the size of a world to predict a world.

So at the moment I come down on the side of free will (remember that?). Except that the freedom is everywhere, not just in our wills. Or something.

But maybe quantum theory is evolving away from many worlds. Wikipedia covers this ground very well. The articles on consistent histories and decoherence suggest that, yes, any quantum event is indeterminate, but that when countless events have to be consistent with each other in the real world, countless possibilities are eliminated. I'm more comfortable with there being a lot of possibilities left to be indeterminate among, but some people are looking for there to be only one real possibility: the universe we live in.
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Old 2006-04-22, 17:50   Link #29
Maids! Maids! Maids!
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I'm thinking you guys should request a new thread called The Ontology of Suzumiya Haruhi.
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Old 2006-04-22, 18:15   Link #30
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Agreed... the mods could easily transplate this topic into the new thread... beccause this topic will be lost in about... oh... 18 hours.
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Old 2006-04-22, 18:59   Link #31
Maids! Maids! Maids!
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Wink

And consider the range of on-topic topics we could discuss, from physics …

Can you observe electrons skipping across Yuki’s knee socks without changing their trajectory?

to theology …

French kissing Haruhi: sacrilege or divine?

to microeconomics and psychology ...

Ruthlessly exploiting Mikuru for fun and profit.
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Old 2006-04-22, 20:12   Link #32
panzerfan
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well... taken from wiki and once we put them together...

* quantum indeterminacy, state of a system does not determine a unique collection of values for all its measurable properties.
* indeterminacy due to chaos as described in chaos theory ("Sensitive dependence on initial conditions").
* indeterminacy caused by limited powers of observation and integration of the facts.
* limitations due to the nature of human memory and thought processes.

and then summing up with S.Hawking's own conclusion...

"These quantum theories are deterministic in the sense that they give laws for the evolution of the wave with time. Thus if one knows the wave at one time, one can calculate it at any other time. The unpredictable, random element comes in only when we try to interpret the wave in terms of the positions and velocities of particles. But maybe this is our mistake: maybe there are no positions and velocities, but only waves. It is just that we try to fit the waves to our preconceived ideas of positions and velocities. The resulting mismatch is the cause of the apparent unpredictability."

We would have in conclusion that the existence of everything is just like how we define existence of self using "I think, therefore I am". Some physicists are going into the protoscience with this by putting quantum mechanics into the study of human mind and subsequently using the idea of curved space and folded space (roll several dimentions into a wee dot) to explain conscience and the strange nature between wave and matter over the macroscopic world.
...and theoratical physic becomes philosophy.


Another interesting explaination to why is it we human typically are dull and are square, thus failing to see quantum indeterminacy in a universe where the interminacy laps on top of one another going from microscopic to macroscopic. (von Neumann's crisis)

* Wigner's friend resolves the inconsistency by asserting that human consciousness not only measures the physical world, but physically changes it from an indeterminate state to an absolute environment. This is known as the Consciousness causes collapse theory. <- Esse est Percipi, to be is to be perceived!

* According to the Copenhagen interpretation, humans created the quantum state vector because it was the only known way to describe the subatomic world mathematically, but there is no catastrophe because quantum mechanics doesn't exist in any real sense.
Spoiler:


* The Many-worlds interpretation asserts that humans don't notice the indeterminate state of the universe because all possibilities but the one we observe happen in other dimensions that are beyond our ability to directly monitor.

* The Bohm interpretation avoids catastrophe and allows for determinism without splitting the universe into many worlds by asserting that the positions of particles are fixed by latent variables that are definite in cause and effect, but which can only be calculated in terms of probability by humans. (Like how that we don't know the exact formula for drop rate in MMORPG but we do know of the probability for drops)

* The Transactional interpretation allows for only one measurement while also permitting the existence of the entire wavefunction by requiring that the observer only detect the part of the source wave that phases positively with his own advanced wave. (We filter anything else as just noise... or we can't 'see' it)

Now we're finally heading back to the story premise of Haruhi I am moving this to speculation since... it's time to make a guess at the story.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-22 at 20:39.
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Old 2006-04-23, 14:52   Link #33
Catgirls
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ontology

Main Entry: on·tol·o·gy
Pronunciation: än-'tä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin ontologia, from ont- + -logia -logy

1 : a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being

2 : a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of existents
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Old 2006-04-23, 18:24   Link #34
panzerfan
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I remember how a book actually illustrated classical mechanics using a game of baseball as example. Actually, baseball stadium has been used to describe the relative scale of the nucleus to the 'shell' of an atom. Position, velocity, acceleration and jerk are all evident in the game...
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Old 2006-04-23, 19:04   Link #35
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*blinks* I didn't realise my one post spawned into this thread... Ok, I need to focus on my exams in 32 hours' time - means I'll get round to reading and replying here in 2+ days or so.

Mmm... didn't think I'd ever get the motivation to write about Time Travel theories again on these boards after all my posts from last summer were lost...
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Old 2006-04-23, 21:16   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan
I remember how a book actually illustrated classical mechanics using a game of baseball as example. Actually, baseball stadium has been used to describe the relative scale of the nucleus to the 'shell' of an atom. Position, velocity, acceleration and jerk are all evident in the game...
And what's episode 4 about?

scary, ain't it?
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Old 2006-04-24, 00:03   Link #37
zalas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psieye
Haruhi Power Walking shot (focussing just above her head)
- H(x) = - SUM [for all x within the set X] (......) (couldn't read all of this but I don't quite recognise that x within X set condition. Maybe a Hamiltonian?)
Pretty sure that's H(X) = -\sum_{x\in X} \log p(x) , which is the standard equation for informational entropy of a random variable X.
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Old 2006-04-24, 03:33   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psieye
Haruhi Power Walking shot (focussing just above her head)
- N = R^0 x f_p x n_e x f_l(?) x f_i(?) x f_c x f (this seems somewhat familiar but I can't quite pinpoint it...)
I think you mean



This is the Drake Equation, the equation which tells you the number of alien civilizations in our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to communicate. I seem to be one of a very small number of people who recognised this
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Old 2006-04-24, 03:36   Link #39
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Also, for anyone wishing to understand more about the physics and metaphysics of time travel, I highly recommend reading this article: SF Chronophysics.
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Old 2006-04-25, 13:38   Link #40
panzerfan
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(2 ppl had u beat to that drake equation ^^)

The time travel is interesting to look back at Asahina Mikuru, although it still leaves the rest of the SOS-brigade's impact unaddressed.
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