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Old 2006-05-24, 13:17   Link #1061
niffum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
Just for the record I would like to add to the discussion that I do not believe Haruhi's abilities make her "God". Firstly, her abilities simply allow her to rewrite reality, and she has no real control over them. Secondly, a god-figure is usually all knowing and can see anything and everything as it is in its infinite wisdom which Haruhi certainly cannot.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the concept of a wise, omnipotent and omniscient God is very much unique to the three major monotheist religions. Historically, most religions have depicted gods as capricious, unruly, unpredictable, petty, easily angered or offended (hence, yanno, sacrifices), etc., and as very powerful rather than all powerful (they're subject to Fate, occasionally die and so on, so forth).

Sound like someone we know?

It's just that projecting a monotheist conception of what a 'god' is to a Japanese anime might not be entirely appropriate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
One senario if she actually accepts her powers and stays sane, she would be all powerful, she would literally be a god.
I think she'd mostly be really bored If looking for aliens, Espers, UMAs and whatevers are what make life intersting, imagine how disappointing it'd be to know that you can conjure them up at a wave of your hand. Depression inducing even.
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Old 2006-05-24, 13:23   Link #1062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent
You totally miss the point. They had the option at the beginning to do a 26 episode run but opted instead to run for 14 and then go produce the new Kanon.

So now instead of having a series that is going to run hotter and hotter for 26 episodes, they stop at 14 and risk losing that heat by the time they get around to producing the second season.

I don't care how well they do it, Kanon is not going to capture the fans the way Haruhi has.

And with 8 novels, there never has been a risk of Filler. Filler happens because they are trying to give some space for more source material to be produced, but with 8 novels of source to draw from, the filler wouldn't start for at least 14 more episodes. By which time they would be done with the TV series and could switch to OVAs or Movies.
That's how it goes in modern anime. If you look at the decades as they move along anime series have been getting shorter and shorter. In the 60's they ran like a hundred or more episodes, in the 70's it was down to about 70 or so, in the 80's it was around 50, the 90's 26, now in the new millenium its been cut in half to about 13, this is the new standard, it saves money so that big name voice actors and musicians can be signed on for the series. By 2010 I expect most anime seasons to be about 6 episodes long. I suspect they had the number 13/14 in there mind all along as that is the standard for anime nowadays.

Somehow I doubt she'd be able to fully control her powers even if she knew about them, to me they seem pretty random and subconcious.
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Old 2006-05-24, 13:32   Link #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO
OH MY HARUHI! Think of The Children! The Children!

So much blood....

*goes off to download Space Runaway Ideon*

You know that was the Ide doing the exploding at the end of both clips not Haruhi, right? Just checking. This makes me happy that I've helped yet another person enjoy the classics. I am slightly biased towards the classics so I'll always like them better than most new stuff. Well Nimu Kanryou I guess. Yes once you've finally understand the power of the Ide, you'll forget all about Haruhi (probably).
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Old 2006-05-24, 13:39   Link #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niffum
I think she'd mostly be really bored If looking for aliens, Espers, UMAs and whatevers are what make life intersting, imagine how disappointing it'd be to know that you can conjure them up at a wave of your hand. Depression inducing even.
Well, thats probably one of the reasons, the 3 groups do not want Haruhi to learn of her own powers.

Back to Ideon discussion: I've played FFinal and @3 before, so I know of Ideon's powers, but honestly its the only 1 anime I dare not watch. Not sure why, maybe its infamous fatality rates is too high for me, I'd watch the blood and death of V Gundam and Elfen Lied over it.

Well Ideon's powers are physical and follows physics up to certain levels. Haruhi's powers totally negates reality and for that she can do whatever she wants.
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Old 2006-05-24, 13:48   Link #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Well, thats probably one of the reasons, the 3 groups do not want Haruhi to learn of her own powers.

Back to Ideon discussion: I've played FFinal and @3 before, so I know of Ideon's powers, but honestly its the only 1 anime I dare not watch. Not sure why, maybe its infamous fatality rates is too high for me, I'd watch the blood and death of V Gundam and Elfen Lied over it.

Well Ideon's powers are physical and follows physics up to certain levels. Haruhi's powers totally negates reality and for that she can do whatever she wants.

Look you honestly don't seem to understand or are in denial so I'll try again. The Ide has existed since before the creation of the universe, it exists outside the realm of physics and can interfere in our reality anytime it chooses (such as the end of the series). It chooses not to for the most part unless something disturbs the order of the universe in which case it interferes to set things right (From: The Legend of The Ide a folktale in Buff Clan legend were a man eats from the symbolic fruit of the Ide Tree to defeat a terrible monster and temporarily gains powers very similar to Haruhi's to defeat the monster and restore order to the universe which means replacing what the monster destroyed, this legend actually turns out to be true). I don't understand where you got the idea that the Ide operates within the domain of physics (The Black Hole Creator [not really a black whole but erasing the enemies from the dimension] is a good example). Sorry for the off topic post but I had to clear up a discrepancy about one of my favorite series.
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Old 2006-05-24, 14:16   Link #1066
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classics are good. My favourite was and still is the original Macross TV series, love every bit of it.

As for the power dispute, Yuki race rules the physical, i suspect superior members of her species could bend anything in the physical realm to their will, but not on the grand scale that Haruhi can, and so effortlessly.
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Old 2006-05-24, 14:39   Link #1067
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Can't say I've seen anything Grand as of yet from Haruhi. Also effort requires one to be concious of their actions. This is a case of things happening by accident, not effortlessly.
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Old 2006-05-24, 14:40   Link #1068
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Well, if the world really was created by Haruhi and the very existance of the universe and time was started by her and she has all control over it, she basically holds all fate and destiny.

If anyone has to take on Haruhi, it will be that their existance is set by Haruhi and their fate rests at her hands.

And if the world really is Haruhi's dream, her 'death' in this dream will only be a nightmare to her. She will wake up from this nightmare in her own reality while everything in her dream is lost, destroyed or simply cease existance.

Since everything in a universe has to exist as a whole, her awakening would probably take out this dimension. When the 3rd dimension disappears, the remaining 10 dimensions will collapse into the void and an entire universe will totally cease to exist.
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Old 2006-05-24, 14:43   Link #1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO
As for the power dispute, Yuki race rules the physical, i suspect superior members of her species could bend anything in the physical realm to their will, but not on the grand scale that Haruhi can, and so effortlessly.
It's not a different of scale, but of nature.

Take notice that for The Data Entity, matter, energy, time, and every other aspect of the universe are seem just as DATA.

With that in mind, the obvious different between Haruhi and The Data Entity is that Haruhi can creat data from scratch, and The Data Entity can only alter already existing data.

At least it's what Yuki said to Kyon.
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Old 2006-05-24, 14:57   Link #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO
classics are good. My favourite was and still is the original Macross TV series, love every bit of it.

As for the power dispute, Yuki race rules the physical, i suspect superior members of her species could bend anything in the physical realm to their will, but not on the grand scale that Haruhi can, and so effortlessly.
Good, people still appreciate the classics. I'm always worried that people are only interested in the newest and biggest thing, like this very show, and will forget or ignore the classics, never experiencing shows that while having inferior animation to today's products, often do things on a much grander scale than modern anime (I'm watching Legend of The Galactic Heroes right now and it is currently my favorite show I am watching, as interesting as Suzumiya Haruhi is, it isn't even holding a candle to the characters and Drama of Galactic Heroes). Anyway, to be perfectly honest, I really can't stand the character of Haruhi. She is just such a mean and awful person, that I am waiting to see develope compassion and kindness to her friends instead of just bossing them around. Things have gotten really stale now even with the revelation that she can alter reality, and it would be better to have a more multi-dimensional character as the focus of such a story than a person who's only speed is controlling cruel bitch. She's says she's bored of life, but she should be bored of herself and maybe lighten up a bit, try making some friends, help people with there troubles instead of just doing things for herself. That's the kind of character I'm hoping to see at some point, but as the series and novels wear on it is looking less and less likely. What we need is Bright Noah from Gundam to pop in and bitchslap her like he did Amuro, and tell her to stop feeling sorry for herself and get out their and do something to make the world a better place. What needs to happen is for Kyon to do exactly that, since unfortunately my main man Brigth isn't in the anime to do it for them.
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:00   Link #1071
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As for the length of the series, I am perfectly satisfied with 14. Not that there isn't enough material, but I really like the tightness of a one-season series. Even many 26-episode series tend to get draggy and confused. And longer series end up being addictive money-pumps, rather than art. EDIT: But I do agree that KyoAni is probably losing money by not making a longer series.

And I do have to say to Kaioshin-Sama that while I agree about the classics, I disagree completely about Haruhi. Haruhi is not just a bitch, she is a person. Look inside her, and feel the rich sadness. She just gets more and more interesting, to me. Good as it is, Galactic Heroes is so much less subtle and interesting than this show. But I will certainly make a point of looking at more of it, and at other classics that I haven't seen yet.
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:17   Link #1072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
Good, people still appreciate the classics.
lol, I guess I finally understood what got VCV so worked up. Theres really no need of anymore arguments because you're just trolling.

You have no connection with the show at all, Haruhi not making the world a better place? You probably don't know what SOS means.

Nobody said they don't appreciate classics, on the other hand, theres people who knows how to appreciate even the latest.
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:28   Link #1073
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I like the show, but I don't like Haruhi's character. Sorry its hard to identify with such a mean character. I'm saying that right now she's a very one-dimensional character aside from the brief period in the latest episode where she spent time with Kyon in the cave. I know that SOS stands is supposed to Save The World by overloading it with fun. Has she done that, no as Kyon points out on a constant basis, she has done nothing of the sort, she's simply made everyone's life who she has come into contact with miserable (The computer club president, Kyon, Mikuru, pretty much the entire school). Maybe she thinks she's making the world more fun but almost everyone else is miserable. If the misery of others is what keeps her satisified and her depression satiated then she's honestly a terrible person. I'm honestly not trolling, I hope you can believe me, I don't like her character at all.
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:41   Link #1074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
I like the show, but I don't like Haruhi's character. Sorry its hard to identify with such a mean character. I'm saying that right now she's a very one-dimensional character aside from the brief period in the latest episode where she spent time with Kyon in the cave. I know that SOS stands is supposed to Save The World by overloading it with fun. Has she done that, no as Kyon points out on a constant basis, she has done nothing of the sort, she's simply made everyone's life who she has come into contact with miserable (The computer club president, Kyon, Mikuru, pretty much the entire school). Maybe she thinks she's making the world more fun but almost everyone else is miserable. If the misery of others is what keeps her satisified and her depression satiated then she's honestly a terrible person. I'm honestly not trolling, I hope you can believe me, I don't like her character at all.
You're believable. But of course, like I speculate; along with many others, Haruhi will probably eventually be portrayed to be a tsundere.

Aren't many characters of many shows like this? Starting out to be one-dimensional and utterly annoying -- look at Now and Then, Here and There, Eureka 7... or basically any show that employs either a bildungsroman technique of a "coming-to-age" story, or a "gradual unfolding" of character technique. Already in episode 8 you can see some of the hesitancy and softness of Haruhi in both her concern of Kyon and also her genuine concern that there was really a murder. But yes, most of the times she seems mostly like a meathead in a chinashop..

I predict that Haruhi's "dere"-ness will increasingly come to the fore as the story progresses. But if it doesn't, then I will probably hold a similar but much milder attitude parallel to yours. I don't think she's mean; maybe narrow-minded (in a focused sort of way) and desperate (to find fun). In the course of that she might annoy and even hurt others (like the many guys that she "accepted" and dumped)... still, "mean" is not exactly the right word to characterize her.
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:44   Link #1075
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
....I'm honestly not trolling, I hope you can believe me, I don't like her character at all.
Oh, no, I never had any thought that you were trolling. I realized it was an honest opinion, and it's certainly justifiable. I wish I could communicate better why I like her so much, despite the obvious problems. I just fall back on saying that I feel something from her that makes me sympathize deeply, despite her harsh surface. I think it's sadness and confusion. And the irony of her certainty, despite the fact that she's so ignorant of what's really going on, I find painfully funny and true. It's true of all of us, I think.
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:44   Link #1076
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Well, why do you think she created the organisation in the first place?

In her point of view, she thinks that espers, aliens and time travellers are interesting and its a joyful thing to have contact with them. She wants everyone to be happy.

Everyone knows that her actions are not acceptable by normal humans and she has no control of herself. She certainly cares for people too, just that most of the time she does it the wrong way. Why is that? Because of what she is and nobody willing to risk telling her what she can do and nobody dares to stop her, she ends up doing the wrong things.

Shes a good person at heart, everything shes doing is for SOS dan and benefit of the world. Just that shes doing it wrong and nobody is allowed or able to stop or change her.

edit: Kaoru Chujo said it right that shes a character that deserves sympathy.
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:49   Link #1077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Well, why do you think she created the organisation in the first place?

In her point of view, she thinks that espers, aliens and time travellers are interesting and its a joyful thing to have contact with them. She wants everyone to be happy.
Now that is just untrue.. it is quite obvious that she is selfish; in fact doesn't Kyon himself say so multiple times in the novel? It's really part of the design of her character; and she is meant to be lovable despite her flaws.

Please don't put her on a pedestal.


I mean, for analysis : p Haruhiists can do whatever they want..
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Old 2006-05-24, 15:51   Link #1078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
You're believable. But of course, like I speculate; along with many others, Haruhi will probably eventually be portrayed to be a tsundere.

Aren't many characters of many shows like this? Starting out to be one-dimensional and utterly annoying -- look at Now and Then, Here and There, Eureka 7... or basically any show that employs either a bildungsroman technique of a "coming-to-age" story, or a "gradual unfolding" of character technique. Already in episode 8 you can see some of the hesitancy and softness of Haruhi in both her concern of Kyon and also her genuine concern that there was really a murder. But yes, most of the times she seems mostly like a meathead in a chinashop..

I predict that Haruhi's "dere"-ness will increasingly come to the fore as the story progresses. But if it doesn't, then I will probably hold a similar but much milder attitude parallel to yours. I don't think she's mean; maybe narrow-minded (in a focused sort of way) and desperate (to find fun). In the course of that she might annoy and even hurt others (like the many guys that she "accepted" and dumped)... still, "mean" is not exactly the right word to characterize her.
Something just occured to me. Episode 8 isn't as near the end of the series as I thought it was chronological-wise. What was going on in my head is that I thought episode 8 was about episode 12 chronolical-wise for some reason and that I was going to have to see Haruhi being mean for most of the rest of the series. My theory was that there was too little time left to develop her if episode 8 took place where it did in the chronlogy. Now that I see it was episode 10 chronologically, I hope that 4 more episodes is enough to develop her character towards the "dere" personality. The problem is in all honesty from what I've seen in the past, 13-14 episodes is too little time to properly develop a character. However, I sincerely hope you are right. Thanks for trusting me too, I know I sometimes come off as arrogant and biased (My own parents think so too at times, but I like engaging in discussion about these kinds of things, and I often get passionate about certain things (Mecha, Space Opera) like I'm sure most people here are about Suzimiya Haruhi. By the way I'm glad too see another fan of Eureka 7 here as well. You guys are alright really. About everyone being too afraid to stop her, that's why I said I wish Bright Noah were in here to set her straight. I'm trying not too be biased here, but characters in 70's and 80's anime honestly had a lot more guts.
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Old 2006-05-24, 17:02   Link #1079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Well, the problem with your arguments is that you tend to go off topic in such a way your talking more about other anime. I myself is a Eureka 7 fan, a hardcore mecha fan actually with about 70% of all anime I watched being mecha anime. I would love to go all the way with you, but I had posts deleted here because I went off topic, so I'm trying to be very careful.

You know, Bright would probably not take risks himself if she knows Haruhi can destroy universes.

Lets not talk mecha here anymore, I hate post deletions.



That is most likely to happen, the last 3 chapters of novel 1 are really great and it would most certainly be the ending of the anime series.

Alright lets call a truce on the whole "God" thing, no matter how unlikely it is and wait for the novel too pan out as any indication of her being god has yet to be seen, its just pure speculation by Itsuki at this point who has a better safe than sorry attitude.
Spoiler:
Anyway for the sake of things if there is no correcting her attitude somewhere along the way I'll be a bit disappointed as will my friend.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2006-05-24 at 18:34.
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Old 2006-05-24, 17:17   Link #1080
DragoonKain3
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In all honesty, Haruhi's 'meaness' IS the major draw for me. Her one-mindedness at having fun at any and all costs makes her a big departure from the two most used female archetypes in anime: a) the sweet, kind, and upbeat heroine (ala Mikuru) or b) the emotionless ice queen (ala Yuki). While I do not mind the archetypes' countless reincarnations, and yes, I still enjoy these archetypes if they're done well if my love of KKM is of any indication, having an anti-heroine of sorts as the protagonist this time around is a nice breath of fresh air.

Would I like to be a friend to such a character in real life? Hell no, just like I wouldn't want to be in the same room as Darth Vader. But like the ol' masked man himself, their not-so-pure deeds are the things that makes their characters interesting because they are fictional characters. In fact, for me, Haruhi's selfishness makes her more human than the rest of the cast, even more so than Kyon. After all, who hasn't met a bully (or god forbid, been one) when they were in school?

And her character makes sense. If one is gifted in practically everything one does, to the point where one excels without putting too much effort, wouldn't one find every ordinary thing in the world kind of dull? That's the way I see Haruhi. Does it excuse her 'evil' actions? No way Jose, and thus I can see why some people would get turned off by her 'my fun before anyone else's' attitude. But if that's what makes her a one-dimensional character, then I'd rather her be that rather than be a fickle character who doesn't follow her beliefs (however muddled or convoluted it might be) if by chance the directors shows her helping someone just for the sake of helping them.

In fact, if KyoAni did that without reasonable background, I would be the first to say that they would've ruined Haruhi's character, and by extension, the entire show itself.



Don't get me wrong. I like the classics, as SDF Macross had been my favorite anime for the longest time, only relatively recently dethroned by Juuni Kokki. But as of now, I try to judge an anime by its own merits rather than comparing it to shows of yesteryear. I mean, I can go on and on about this show not being as deep and immersive as Macross or 12K, but that kind of mindset would not only detract a lot of fun from this particular show, but also anime-watching in general.
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