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Old 2006-05-24, 17:25   Link #1081
Nara
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I don't know, if someone asked about it, before..

I just started today, and I'm currently watching the fourth episode (they play baseball). Is this really the fourth episode? It is very confusing, because there is a new character and they are talking about things, I don't know of.

Is the whole Anime that confusing, concerning the order of the episodes? Or does it get clear, soon?

PS: Well, it's okay. The preview cleared everything. Gomen. ^^''
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Old 2006-05-24, 17:35   Link #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
In all honesty, Haruhi's 'meaness' IS the major draw for me. Her one-mindedness at having fun at any and all costs makes her a big departure from the two most used female archetypes in anime: a) the sweet, kind, and upbeat heroine (ala Mikuru) or b) the emotionless ice queen (ala Yuki). While I do not mind the archetypes' countless reincarnations, and yes, I still enjoy these archetypes if they're done well if my love of KKM is of any indication, having an anti-heroine of sorts as the protagonist this time around is a nice breath of fresh air.

Would I like to be a friend to such a character in real life? Hell no, just like I wouldn't want to be in the same room as Darth Vader. But like the ol' masked man himself, their not-so-pure deeds are the things that makes their characters interesting because they are fictional characters. In fact, for me, Haruhi's selfishness makes her more human than the rest of the cast, even more so than Kyon. After all, who hasn't met a bully (or god forbid, been one) when they were in school?

And her character makes sense. If one is gifted in practically everything one does, to the point where one excels without putting too much effort, wouldn't one find every ordinary thing in the world kind of dull? That's the way I see Haruhi. Does it excuse her 'evil' actions? No way Jose, and thus I can see why some people would get turned off by her 'my fun before anyone else's' attitude. But if that's what makes her a one-dimensional character, then I'd rather her be that rather than be a fickle character who doesn't follow her beliefs (however muddled or convoluted it might be) if by chance the directors shows her helping someone just for the sake of helping them.

In fact, if KyoAni did that without reasonable background, I would be the first to say that they would've ruined Haruhi's character, and by extension, the entire show itself.



Don't get me wrong. I like the classics, as SDF Macross had been my favorite anime for the longest time, only relatively recently dethroned by Juuni Kokki. But as of now, I try to judge an anime by its own merits rather than comparing it to shows of yesteryear. I mean, I can go on and on about this show not being as deep and immersive as Macross or 12K, but that kind of mindset would not only detract a lot of fun from this particular show, but also anime-watching in general.
Perfection also makes for a boring character. I'm reminded of an old episode of The Little Mermaid cartoon (Yeah I know, I'm old and remember weird stuff). Where Sebastian's brother showed up and was a total snob much like Haruhi, and was good at everything he did (Haruhi doesn't seem perfect at everything by the way, maybe sports and the like, but who's too say she didn't bomb that exam horribly and Kyon really did all the work in the detective scenario.) Anyway back on topic, Sebastian's brother continued to do incredible things and outshine Sebastian at every activity but when it came down to it at the end his brother admitted defeat to Sebastian and Realized that Sebastian was better than him. When Sebastian asked how that could be, Sebastian's brother said he was better at the most important thing than him "Making Friends and being a Good Person". Maybe I remember this episode because it was one of the best morality tales I have ever seen. In the end his brother was really sad despite the fact that he could do all these amazing things, much like Haruhi. In the end they embraced and Sebastian said he would be his friend. I think maybe what she truly desires is friends and that is subconciously why she founded the SOS. Maybe she is really lonely because everyone is so scared of her. I hope the story covers this idea somewhat, as it may hold the key to Haruhi finding what she wants in life.
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Old 2006-05-24, 17:35   Link #1083
DragoonKain3
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Nara, pay attention to the next eps. preview for each and every episode. Unlike most other shows, it is crucial to your understanding for the story. Basically, whatever Haruhi says is the episode number the upcoming episode would be IF the show went in chronological order.
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:14   Link #1084
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I added a theory as too what else may be going on at post number #1082. Maybe some people might want to have a look, although its pretty messy.
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:24   Link #1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
I added a theory as too what else may be going on at post number #1082. Maybe some people might want to have a look, although its pretty messy.
Paragraph................................
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:25   Link #1086
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
Just for the record I would like to add to the discussion that I do not believe Haruhi's abilities make her "God". Firstly, her abilities simply allow her to rewrite reality, and she has no real control over them. Secondly, a god-figure is usually all knowing and can see anything and everything as it is in its infinite wisdom which Haruhi certainly cannot. To me her powers make her more akin to say Neo's ability to casually manipulate The Matrix but not to fully control it, not akin to a god figure who has complete control over the destiny of everything in the universe (Haruhi cannot see that far or clearly). Like Yuki said, Haruhi is probably a once in a lifetime fluke in the continuity of the universe (however improbable) who has "The ability to control massive amounts of data that a human cannot normally manipulate". My theory is she acts as a medium for the data/reality as it passes through her it bends to her will slightly. Thus, Haruhi is not God, just a human with unusual abilities, a mutant if you will. I'm sure there's some character in a marvel comic book somewhere who has a similar ability, and they are not considered to be god, so why Haruhi?
This is a bit late, but I want to add my thoughts on this.

What exactly is the difference between rewriting reality on a whim and controlling fate? There is no difference. Well, I can't think of any. Can you? Someone who can rewrite reality can make anything happen, have happened, or be right about to happen. How is that not controlling fate? If you want a specific example within the series, Haruhi caused a time traveler to appear around her. Because of this, she's written the entirety of human history up the point where time travel was invented, and then made someone from that era come back to this particular era and join her club. How is that not controlling fate?

But I agree that without control over it, she's not a god yet. Plus, she lacks the information to accurately control things, but she could always rewrite it so that she does have the information, or choose to completely ignore the information when/if she rewrites something.

On another note, I believe that Neo does have godlike abilities, it's just that the writers of the Matrix completely screwed up after the first movie. I mean, really, why is that he can stop bullets, fly, and reprogram agents, but do absolutely nothing else of significance? That's just stupid. He even has to fist-fight manually. It's like the writers realized they couldn't make interesting sequels based on what they did to him in the first movie, so they limited it to the specific random things they had shown him doing in the ending of the first movie. So random, so stupid.
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:32   Link #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
What exactly is the difference between rewriting reality on a whim and controlling fate? There is no difference. Well, I can't think of any. Can you? Someone who can rewrite reality can make anything happen, have happened, or be right about to happen. How is that not controlling fate? If you want a specific example within the series, Haruhi caused a time traveler to appear around her. Because of this, she's written the entirety of human history up the point where time travel was invented, and then made someone from that era come back to this particular era and join her club. How is that not controlling fate?
Because the person him or herself in this case is NOT pre-determining his or her own actions. That is, the influence Haruhi has is external; not internal. Presumably she cannot rewrite herself to not do what she has done; or not be what she is now. Unless this "power" is given to Haruhi later in the series, then "rewriting reality" is much different from "controlling fate"...

But truly the philosophical issue is deeper than this, because in a truly deterministic picture no one and nothing can control fate.. It's abit hard to explain


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
On another note, I believe that Neo does have godlike abilities, it's just that the writers of the Matrix completely screwed up after the first movie. I mean, really, why is that he can stop bullets, fly, and reprogram agents, but do absolutely nothing else of significance? That's just stupid. He even has to fist-fight manually. It's like the writers realized they couldn't make interesting sequels based on what they did to him in the first movie, so they limited it to the specific random things they had shown him doing in the ending of the first movie. So random, so stupid.
They keyword is "godlike". Actually, the issue of Neo is much more complicated than can be explained easily, and I myself have limited knowledge of the Matrix. The main issue is that Neo can "BEND" the rules of the Matrix (that's why he has the ability to see the code of the matrix --- by seeing the 0s and the 1s at the end of the first movie), but he does NOT exist outside the rules of the matrix. That is, you don't see him teleporting materially within the matrix. He still has to run, walk, or when he flies, he has to traverse from point A to point B in a continuous fashion. He still obeys physical laws as a material entity in the matrix.

So, your assessment is basically wrong. You should probably read up on all the Matrix fansites and their analysis because I am quite ignorant about it.
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:39   Link #1088
DragoonKain3
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Quote:
Perfection also makes for a boring character.
Haruhi, perfect? I thought I was arguing for anything but that. >_<

Quote:
I think maybe what she truly desires is friends and that is subconciously why she founded the SOS. Maybe she is really lonely because everyone is so scared of her. I hope the story covers this idea somewhat, as it may hold the key to Haruhi finding what she wants in life.
While you're welcome to hope for any moral lesson in the end of the series, I wouldn't hold my breath, Kaioshin_Sama. As far as I see it, this show is looking to be just for entertainment purposes. Looking for life lesson in here would be like looking one in a show like the newer episodes of the Simpsons. But hey, I've been wrong before. XD

Topic of friendship, you might see in other anime, but I doubt it'll creep up in this one, particularly for Haruhi. Haruhi from the very beginning comes off to be the 'lone wolf' type (remember the time when she sat by herself during PE class in eps 2?), and coupled with the fact that she could give a rat's ass about what anybody thinks of her, I don't think she's out looking for 'ordinary' friends. As such, I find it improbable and illogical that she founded the SOS dan for any other reasons than the one explicitly stated in the beginning of the series; that is to greatly enliven the world (for her sake, might I add).

As for what Haruhi wants in life, I thought this was already answered in the first few minutes of episode 2? If there's one thing that can describe Haruhi, it's her knowing what she wants, when she wants it. As of right now there's only one thing she wants: to have fun experiencing extraordinary things. But hey, maybe she'd change her mind in the future, but the only logical change I can see so far in the anime would be changing her motto from what I have said before to 'have fun experiencing extraordinary things with Kyon', if episode 8 is of any indication.

Nice theory, but it needs a bit more evidence from the anime itself before it becomes more plausible.
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:51   Link #1089
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Because the person him or herself in this case is NOT pre-determining his or her own actions. That is, the influence Haruhi has is external; not internal. Presumably she cannot rewrite herself to not do what she has done; or not be what she is now. Unless this "power" is given to Haruhi later in the series, then "rewriting reality" is much different from "controlling fate"...
I don't see where you get that idea. Well, it's hard to discuss this because we're not sure what Haruhi is in the first place, but assuming Itsuki's theory (which is where the whole god idea came from in the first place), I see no reason why she couldn't rewrite her own place in the universe, change her own past, etc. I guess she may be stuck with this power, no matter how she writes the universe, but can a god throw away godhood? I don't think the question comes up in monotheistic religion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
But truly the philosophical issue is deeper than this, because in a truly deterministic picture no one and nothing can control fate.. It's abit hard to explain
Well, if it's purely deterministic, then all she does is control fate, because fate is determined by the preconditions of the universe. By changing the preconditions (rewriting reality), she changes fate. Simple. It's probably not purely deterministic though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
They keyword is "godlike". Actually, the issue of Neo is much more complicated than can be explained easily, and I myself have limited knowledge of the Matrix. The main issue is that Neo can "BEND" the rules of the Matrix (that's why he has the ability to see the code of the matrix --- by seeing the 0s and the 1s at the end of the first movie), but he does NOT exist outside the rules of the matrix. That is, you don't see him teleporting materially within the matrix. He still has to run, walk, or when he flies, he has to traverse from point A to point B in a continuous fashion. He still obeys physical laws as a material entity in the matrix.

So, your assessment is basically wrong. You should probably read up on all the Matrix fansites and their analysis because I am quite ignorant about it.
Wouldn't this just be fans retroactively justifying the later movies? All signs in the first movie point to him becoming a god within the matrix. Think about it, everyone else is already bending the rules with superhuman feats, etc. So the legendary "The One" simply bends them a bit more? Sounds rather anticlimactic if you ask me.

Sure, it's possible to read it so he's not omnipotent, but it's certainly not the intuitive interpretation of the first movie. Plus, it's a much more complicated explanation, as you imply. Occam's razor. I guess the writer's are the ones who truly decide what the answer is, but that's why I call it bad writing, and prefer to stick with my nostalgic memories of the first movie.
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:55   Link #1090
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No wait, if it's purely deterministic then her decisions on how to rewrite it are also predtermined by her environment, which is predetermined by her mind, etc, back into infinity. So no one has any ultimate control over fate, yes, you're right.
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Old 2006-05-24, 18:57   Link #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Paragraph................................
Sorry meant the one on the previous page #1079. I don't know the meaning of short paragraph responses.
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Old 2006-05-24, 19:08   Link #1092
arias
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Originally Posted by Bahamut89
I don't see where you get that idea. Well, it's hard to discuss this because we're not sure what Haruhi is in the first place, but assuming Itsuki's theory (which is where the whole god idea came from in the first place), I see no reason why she couldn't rewrite her own place in the universe, change her own past, etc. I guess she may be stuck with this power, no matter how she writes the universe, but can a god throw away godhood? I don't think the question comes up in monotheistic religion...
I don't see where you get your idea. Like I said, Haruhi's powers to rewrite reality seems to preclude that of herself. It is unlikely that she has the power to change her nature, but who knows? Regarding a God throwing away Godhood, I have quite alot of experience with philosophical texts.. the general consensus of the philosophical community, including theists, is that God is omnipotent but cannot transcend LOGICAL laws. That is, God cannot do the logically impossible (e.g. making a square have 5 sides).

You're not right in that she changes the PRECONDITIONS by rewriting reality. She rewrites reality in a continuous fashion, that is..

event A ---> event B (rewrite) ---> event C

It does not change the fact that event A transpired, or it is not clear what exactly happens to event A. It is also not clear to what extent her powers extend itself to.. In all, I don't think we should hold the author and creators to such high logical standards. They are not trained in philosophy, and even if they have some knowledge of it, I know plenty of people who hold little amusing "philosophical" thoughts that hold no logical water at all (for e.g. Mamoru Oshii and his theory of "ghosts" <GITS reference> and relationships)..

In fact Japanese works tend to deliberately incorporate time paradoxes just for the heck of it. In this series, they do one with Kyon telling Miruku she has a birthmark on her breast and then Miruku (3 years later) travels back to tell Kyon, who in turn tells Miruku who (3 years later) travels back to tell Kyon... etc. It completely destroys the causal originator... this also happens in AIR as well. It's quite ridiculous, but fans lap it up and authors keep using this technique...



Quote:
Wouldn't this just be fans retroactively justifying the later movies? All signs in the first movie point to him becoming a god within the matrix. Think about it, everyone else is already bending the rules with superhuman feats, etc. So the legendary "The One" simply bends them a bit more? Sounds rather anticlimactic if you ask me.

Sure, it's possible to read it so he's not omnipotent, but it's certainly not the intuitive interpretation of the first movie. Plus, it's a much more complicated explanation, as you imply. Occam's razor. I guess the writer's are the ones who truly decide what the answer is, but that's why I call it bad writing, and prefer to stick with my nostalgic memories of the first movie.
Wow, like I said, read analysis of it: I've read some impressive analysis that discussed the reality of the matrix... They all seem logical and consistent with the first movie. I watched the movie but I never thought he was omnipotent and from what I know, it was always planned to be a trilogy.

And utilizing Occam's razor in this case is a massive cop-out. I hate to say this, but given your attitude, let's apply Occam's Razor: what would be easier to say -- that you simply don't get it, or that they wrote it badly? Unless you're telling me that you're highly intelligent, maybe you should be abit more conservative. Like I said, go read.

Edit: Even Wikipedia has its articles talk about the movies in relative depth. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix_series

Each of the three movies have their individual pages, and have somewhat integrated explanations.
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Old 2006-05-24, 19:25   Link #1093
Clarste
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Originally Posted by arias
I don't see where you get your idea. Like I said, Haruhi's powers to rewrite reality seems to preclude that of herself. It is unlikely that she has the power to change her nature, but who knows? Regarding a God throwing away Godhood, I have quite alot of experience with philosophical texts.. the general consensus of the philosophical community, including theists, is that God is omnipotent but cannot transcend LOGICAL laws. That is, God cannot do the logically impossible (e.g. making a square have 5 sides).

You're not right in that she changes the PRECONDITIONS by rewriting reality. She rewrites reality in a continuous fashion, that is..

event A ---> event B (rewrite) ---> event C

It does not change the fact that event A transpired, or it is not clear what exactly happens to event A. It is also not clear to what extent her powers extend itself to.. In all, I don't think we should hold the author and creators to such high logical standards. They are not trained in philosophy, and even if they have some knowledge of it, I know plenty of people who hold little amusing "philosophical" thoughts that hold no logical water at all (for e.g. Mamoru Oshii and his theory of "ghosts" <GITS reference> and relationships)..

In fact Japanese works tend to deliberately incorporate time paradoxes just for the heck of it. In this series, they do one with Kyon telling Miruku she has a birthmark on her breast and then Miruku (3 years later) travels back to tell Kyon, who in turn tells Miruku who (3 years later) travels back to tell Kyon... etc. It completely destroys the causal originator... this also happens in AIR as well. It's quite ridiculous, but fans lap it up and authors keep using this technique...
We know nothing about how her powers work. Why does it preclude herself? Please answer that. I see no reason to assume that. Assuming she has power to rewrite everything else, I'd assume that she has the power to rewrite herself until we get evidence to the contrary.

I already conceded about the predeterminism thing, I assume you posted before you read that.

I shall concede about the Matrix, except to say that I, personally, liked the first movie in the way I originally interpreted it. I'm sure it's possible and enjoyable to interpret it otherwise.
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Old 2006-05-24, 19:55   Link #1094
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Originally Posted by Bahamut89
We know nothing about how her powers work. Why does it preclude herself? Please answer that. I see no reason to assume that. Assuming she has power to rewrite everything else, I'd assume that she has the power to rewrite herself until we get evidence to the contrary.
I'm saying I think it precludes herself -- I have no idea whether the author means it to be so. Let's take this back to controlling reality + controlling fate..


In terms of the show, Haruhi's rewriting of reality consists of the composition of the world. That is, the nature of the world and perhaps even its history can be rewritten... (I know this might go against my previous post, but patience! I am no genius ) Such that, she can shape the world into her wishes or expectations.. which is why the Kyon + Haruhi arc at the end of Novel vol 1 (also alluded to in episode 4; the baseball episode).


Controlling FATE, however, is a very tricky issue. Let's keep in mind first that despite Haruhi's speculated ability to shape reality and her state of Godhood, she does not seem to have control over the actions of others -- she does not puppet-string Kyon, Yuki and the others. Obviously this could be because she is unaware of her powers..

Anyways, regarding fate, let's just approach this from a deterministic model. Because "fate" (or fatalism") usually implies a destiny -- a plan of some sort. It's more often utilized in theistic circles because the omniscience of God implies that (1) he knows everything (2) everything is planned. A totally deterministic model makes no such deductions, just that (1) everything now is because of everything that has transpired. Anyways, applying it to Haruhi:


Haruhi changes reality from State A to State B --> this is determined


Note that to further illustrate the meta-control that real deterministic models exert, I'll bring up a common flaw.. In some movies or shows, or even in real-life, people sometimes say: "This is your fate, don't fight it." ... This happens even in some shows where there's a fate engine or some BS of the sort. However..


X fights "fate" --> this is determined


That is, a person's refusal to accept what is "determined" IS determined. That is, the "determined" in double apostrophes is just a pseudo-determinism.




That is why, saying that Haruhi has control over "fate", or has deterministic control over all of reality is something of a mistake.. Let me try my best to more clearly communicate this. Okay, let's do a counterfactual. Let us pretend that Haruhi has control over fate...


Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y"


However, is THIS written above, fated by itself? Do you get what I mean?

Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y" --> Fated?


The logical consequence of this is -

If yes, it was fated that she changed X to Y, then she does not really have control over fate -- it's "pseudo-fate"

If no, it wasn't fated, then it is hard to imagine there was any "fate" at all in the first place to speak of.
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Old 2006-05-24, 20:24   Link #1095
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
I'm saying I think it precludes herself -- I have no idea whether the author means it to be so. Let's take this back to controlling reality + controlling fate..


In terms of the show, Haruhi's rewriting of reality consists of the composition of the world. That is, the nature of the world and perhaps even its history can be rewritten... (I know this might go against my previous post, but patience! I am no genius ) Such that, she can shape the world into her wishes or expectations.. which is why the Kyon + Haruhi arc at the end of Novel vol 1 (also alluded to in episode 4; the baseball episode).


Controlling FATE, however, is a very tricky issue. Let's keep in mind first that despite Haruhi's speculated ability to shape reality and her state of Godhood, she does not seem to have control over the actions of others -- she does not puppet-string Kyon, Yuki and the others. Obviously this could be because she is unaware of her powers..

Anyways, regarding fate, let's just approach this from a deterministic model. Because "fate" (or fatalism") usually implies a destiny -- a plan of some sort. It's more often utilized in theistic circles because the omniscience of God implies that (1) he knows everything (2) everything is planned. A totally deterministic model makes no such deductions, just that (1) everything now is because of everything that has transpired. Anyways, applying it to Haruhi:


Haruhi changes reality from State A to State B --> this is determined


Note that to further illustrate the meta-control that real deterministic models exert, I'll bring up a common flaw.. In some movies or shows, or even in real-life, people sometimes say: "This is your fate, don't fight it." ... This happens even in some shows where there's a fate engine or some BS of the sort. However..


X fights "fate" --> this is determined


That is, a person's refusal to accept what is "determined" IS determined. That is, the "determined" in double apostrophes is just a pseudo-determinism.




That is why, saying that Haruhi has control over "fate", or has deterministic control over all of reality is something of a mistake.. Let me try my best to more clearly communicate this. Okay, let's do a counterfactual. Let us pretend that Haruhi has control over fate...


Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y"


However, is THIS written above, fated by itself? Do you get what I mean?

Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y" --> Fated?


The logical consequence of this is -

If yes, it was fated that she changed X to Y, then she does not really have control over fate -- it's "pseudo-fate"

If no, it wasn't fated, then it is hard to imagine there was any "fate" at all in the first place to speak of.
Yes. But, these leads to another point. Basically, if fate exists, no one controls it because, as you show, that defies the definition of fate. If fate doesn't exist, no one controls it because it doesn't exist. Therefore, it logically impossible for anything, ever, to control fate.

So, yes, I guess I was mistaken in saying her power is indistiguishable from controlling fate. However, the orginal point I had was that this does not make her different from a god. A god couldn't control fate either, because it's just logically impossible to control fate. She's still in the same boat as an omnipotent god. A god's actions are predetermined in the exact same sense. A god cannot change fate, because fate cannot be changed. I suppose they could create fate from nothing, but Haruhi is also speculated to have created everything from nothing, and therefore fate at the same time. Haruhi's powers are still the powers of a god.

Ah, I'm so weak in arguments like this. So now I'm saying "Everything I said in the first place was wrong, but now I shall use what you said to prove my original point, so I'm still right, haha!" Sorry.
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Old 2006-05-24, 21:27   Link #1096
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
So, yes, I guess I was mistaken in saying her power is indistiguishable from controlling fate. However, the orginal point I had was that this does not make her different from a god. A god couldn't control fate either, because it's just logically impossible to control fate. She's still in the same boat as an omnipotent god. A god's actions are predetermined in the exact same sense. A god cannot change fate, because fate cannot be changed. I suppose they could create fate from nothing, but Haruhi is also speculated to have created everything from nothing, and therefore fate at the same time. Haruhi's powers are still the powers of a god.

Ah, I'm so weak in arguments like this. So now I'm saying "Everything I said in the first place was wrong, but now I shall use what you said to prove my original point, so I'm still right, haha!" Sorry.
You're right; especially technically so. This also reveals perhaps that Fate, if it does exist, is also a logical necessity that a god or gods cannot alter. But ya, you're right..

Anyways, weaknesses don't matter so long as we learn something out of this ; )
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Old 2006-05-25, 08:13   Link #1097
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Just in case people missed it here is my extremely long-winded and convuluted theory as to what may be going on.

Spoiler:

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2006-05-25 at 10:03.
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Old 2006-05-25, 08:18   Link #1098
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
Just in case people missed it here is my extremely long-winded and convuluted theory as to what may be going on.

Spoiler:
You can write long posts, but please put in breaks and paragraphs.
It's rude otherwise.
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Old 2006-05-25, 16:02   Link #1099
Kaioshin Sama
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Also notice that when Haruhi and Kyon are around other people she treats him terribly and when they are alone they get along quite well, such as after class or in the cave. Also, they seem to have a Key Master/Key Keeper (What was it in Ghostbusters?) relationship as well where whenever they are alone together reality gets altered
Spoiler:


or my friends hilarious theory about it all since he can't get in on the discussion without an account. Keep in mind my friend is a joker.

Spoiler:


By the way me, my friend, and his brother are all crazy Mecha fanboys so take this with a grain of salt.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2006-05-25 at 17:14.
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Old 2006-05-25, 17:44   Link #1100
CrowKenobi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama
Also notice that when Haruhi and Kyon are around other people she treats him terribly and when they are alone they get along quite well, such as after class or in the cave. Also, they seem to have a Key Master/Key Keeper (What was it in Ghostbusters?) relationship as well where whenever they are alone together reality gets altered...
Keymaster and Gatekeeper.

I've been saying Kyon is the Keymaster because everyone keeps saying that he's the "key" to Haruhi.

Spoiler for truth about "Keymaster" and "Gatekeeper":
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