AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-06-03, 21:34   Link #61
Schneizel
fanatical racism moe
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 27
Lacus is clearly the real evil in Gundam SEED guys... quit kidding yourselves...
Schneizel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-03, 21:35   Link #62
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
@ M Flores: You think she's boring? That's nice, I don't really care much for her either. But that's not the topic of this thread.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-03, 21:38   Link #63
SNT1
r0x0rz j00r b0x0rz
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Lacus is clearly the real evil in Gundam SEED guys... quit kidding yourselves...
but she appeals to so many people!

that only means one thing: She is THE Antichrist.
SNT1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-03, 21:41   Link #64
M_Flores
Count of Monte Dorifto
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Isla De Monte Dorifto
Send a message via MSN to M_Flores
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert
@ M Flores: You think she's boring? That's nice, I don't really care much for her either. But that's not the topic of this thread.
Yeah, lol. I purposely indicated at the beginning of my post that what I was about to say was gonna be off topic. I really felt like I had to release that, haha.
M_Flores is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-03, 22:31   Link #65
Schneizel
fanatical racism moe
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNT1
but she appeals to so many people!

that only means one thing: She is THE Antichrist.
Haha. SIGEL CLYNE HELPED GIVE BIRTH TO THE ANTI-CHRIST H4X!1

You know, I was thinking about this topic, and her voice actress, Tanaka Rie. Since Gundam SEED Destiny, Tanaka Rie has been in a few other roles in recent anime. Ones that stick out are Mai Otome as Tomoe and Fia, and Astrea Testament as Sister Lain/Leandra. All of those characters have inherit "evil-ness" or "dislikable qualities" to them. Tomoe is a possessive psychopath, Fia follows orders regardless of what they are (oh no that's so horrible? lol whatever...), and Leandra is trying to destroy Princess Adale; Adale is Lacus-like in the sense of her Mary Sue-ness... maybe Lacus wore her out of goody two shoes roles?
Schneizel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 00:18   Link #66
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
First of all, Shinn being "skilled" enough to beat down five destroys? He went in there going RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH, CHOP CHOP!! and it WORKED...and to great efficiency might I add...I mean when you have something so BIG AND SLOW as a destroy, Shinn's fighting style actually TRUMPS Kira's and Athrun's.

But you CAN'T RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH, CHOP CHOP a Freedom or a Justice. They're just too manueverable to do that! In case you need a reminder, go check the part where Shinn kills Sting. You call THAT calm and collected and analytical? Heck, I think Shinn was more calmed down and strategic against Kira and Athrun when working with Rey than against the Destroys.

As for Kira being sent to Lacus, PLEASE stop dismissing everything you don't explicitly see as a plot hole. The Astray Manga made it perfectly clear...here, I'll give you nonbelievers the rundown, AGAIN:

1) Strike and Aegis have fight, Aegis and Strike go boom.
2) Lowe LIFTS Kira out of Strike's cockpit and LUGS him over to Malchio's.
3) Malchio SEES Kira's dogtag and RECOGNIZES the name. It was a name that LACUS described as being a VERY GOOD PERSON.
4) Malchio CONTACTS Lacus about Kira.
5) Lacus says to SEND KIRA UP TO HER.
6) You know the rest.

If I had the mangas here at home with me, I'd scan the pages...but since it's me being a cheap bastard, I read em all at barnes and noble...or was it borders?

As for Lacus being such a shining "Mary Sue"...well, when your villains are just that evil, you need your heroes to be just that good. When you're going up against vastly superior armies in terms of numbers, you need god suits to bridge that gap, and a goddess at the helm to make sure everything is in tip-top shape.

That's what happens when you use heroes to bridge gaps that big. The heroes=gods.

That said, I happen to like Lacus BECAUSE of who she is. She's sweet, soft-spoken, and all-around fills the CE universe with lots of happy pink...including the dust from Freedom's wings.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 00:24   Link #67
SNT1
r0x0rz j00r b0x0rz
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
That said, I happen to like Lacus BECAUSE of who she is. She's sweet, soft-spoken, and all-around fills the CE universe with lots of happy pink...including the dust from Freedom's wings.
and what happens when you disagree with Lacus?

*stolen from ridiculous images thread*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sety
The true face of Lacus Clyne. I think this one is even more disturbing than Flo's Lacus ._.
Spoiler:
SNT1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 01:05   Link #68
tritoch
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chi-town
Okay, first you say that Lacus never made a mistake, now here you are asking "what happens when you disagree with Lacus?"

How can someone you described to be perfect make a mistake?
__________________
All time Fave list:Honey and Clover; Saiunkoku Monogatari; Kodomo no Omocha; Air/Kanon; Infinite Ryvius; Bartender; Nana; Char's Counter Attack; Shadow Skill TV
tritoch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 03:55   Link #69
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNT1
and what happens when you disagree with Lacus?
Depends of the scope of the disagreement, I suppose. Didn't they say at one point that they'd be willing to disregard the assassination attempt if they could trust Dully's intentions were good?

But when you start putting into action genocidal plans, I'm sorry, but whatever misfortune happens to you, you had it coming!
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 04:28   Link #70
Schneizel
fanatical racism moe
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 27
Quote:
That said, I happen to like Lacus BECAUSE of who she is. She's sweet, soft-spoken, and all-around fills the CE universe with lots of happy pink...including the dust from Freedom's wings.
In other words you've been dumped by a bunch of Fllay's IRL and you wish you had a Lacus-type Mary Sue girlfriend?
Schneizel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 10:01   Link #71
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
No, koda, I just don't like the Fllays to begin with!
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 10:58   Link #72
The Joiner
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch
Astray manga = reliable source? since the Junior stated out in his paragraph that Kira was sent to Lacus for plot development.
Also EAF and ZAFT wouldn't take care of the injured Kira. The EAF would prosecute him for being a coordinator and ZAFt likewise would have him killed. Orb was in the brink of invasion and I dont think the other sovereign nations are gonna handle Kira, heck those countries might hand him to the EAF/ZAFT.
While the issue was addressed in the ASTRY books, that wasn't really the point. Why send him to PLANT? The trip there would be long, and even if Kira was stable, if something went wrong on the flight there would be no way to fix it on the shuttle. Not to mention the inherent danger of being caught. What are they supposed to say if an EA ship bords them and finds an injured coordinator on board, especially with Blue Cosmos in control of a good bit of it by this point? They didn't have to involve any of the nations, there is this little place called the hospital . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert
Why don't you try to understand the story? Lacus never had as big an ambition as Alexander. Not only that, the most she ever directly commanded was the Eternal, the larger organization of Clyne Faction/Terminal is delegated to other people. And they didn't even directly participate in the battles. So the few people that were actually with her were more willing to be loyal to her than Alexander's thousands of men were to him and that makes Lacus a plot hole character?
Whatever the size of her ambition, the fact is that she never really slipped up in such a way that it hurt her. My point was to show that Alexander the Great was not as perfect or infalible as 4tran made him out to be. He was brilliant, but he wasn't infalible. As for the delgation arguement, Alexander delegated too, to his military governors. Remember what happened to them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
First of all, Shinn being "skilled" enough to beat down five destroys? He went in there going RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH, CHOP CHOP!! and it WORKED...and to great efficiency might I add...I mean when you have something so BIG AND SLOW as a destroy, Shinn's fighting style actually TRUMPS Kira's and Athrun's.

But you CAN'T RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH, CHOP CHOP a Freedom or a Justice. They're just too manueverable to do that! In case you need a reminder, go check the part where Shinn kills Sting. You call THAT calm and collected and analytical? Heck, I think Shinn was more calmed down and strategic against Kira and Athrun when working with Rey than against the Destroys.

As for Kira being sent to Lacus, PLEASE stop dismissing everything you don't explicitly see as a plot hole. The Astray Manga made it perfectly clear...here, I'll give you nonbelievers the rundown, AGAIN:

1) Strike and Aegis have fight, Aegis and Strike go boom.
2) Lowe LIFTS Kira out of Strike's cockpit and LUGS him over to Malchio's.
3) Malchio SEES Kira's dogtag and RECOGNIZES the name. It was a name that LACUS described as being a VERY GOOD PERSON.
4) Malchio CONTACTS Lacus about Kira.
5) Lacus says to SEND KIRA UP TO HER.
6) You know the rest.

If I had the mangas here at home with me, I'd scan the pages...but since it's me being a cheap bastard, I read em all at barnes and noble...or was it borders?

As for Lacus being such a shining "Mary Sue"...well, when your villains are just that evil, you need your heroes to be just that good. When you're going up against vastly superior armies in terms of numbers, you need god suits to bridge that gap, and a goddess at the helm to make sure everything is in tip-top shape.

That's what happens when you use heroes to bridge gaps that big. The heroes=gods.

That said, I happen to like Lacus BECAUSE of who she is. She's sweet, soft-spoken, and all-around fills the CE universe with lots of happy pink...including the dust from Freedom's wings.
First of all, a page or so back, you used Kira's defeat of a single Destroy to show that Lacus wasn't a GameShark. Now you're saying that the defeat of five Destroys isn't a feat worthy enough to consider Shinn a skilled adversary. Which is it? Either one Destroy is a feat difficult enough to be worth of the great Kira, or five Destroys is easy enough that even the "unworthy" Shinn can accomplish it.

Second, see above.

Third, what do you mean, ultimate evil? The EA was portrayed as being the ultimate evil in GSD. The EA was ruled by racists and weapon merchants. The EA's goal was to kill every last coordinator. The EA built the Destroys and Requem, not to mention trying to nuke PLANT early on. ZAFT and Dullindal, evil though they might be, were portayed at several points as being simply misguided. (The episode 29 clip show, for example) The Clyne faction fought the EA three times in the entire series (the two ambushes on the Minerva and the battle against the first Destroy) while they fought ZAFT six times (the two ambushes on the Minerva, Operation Angel Down, the Eternal's flight from the asteroid, the Second Battle of Orb, and the final battle)

Forth, my problem is not with their power. My problem is with their invinciblity. While the Clyne faction would need power to defeat ZAFT, they recieve no losses in the final battle (yes I know that a DOM and a ZAKU get damaged in Final Plus, but that's it.) While extreme power is an aproprate counter for extreme numbers, that does mean that the side with extreme numbers should get some respect and victories. Watch GaoGaiGar FINAL sometime. The main hero, Guy, has an infinate power source, but he still gets hurt and damaged during the fighting, and in the end, he has to sacrifice everything for victory.

Finally, calm down. I'm not trying to insult you here. I'm just staiting the reasons why I believe Lacus to be, as the titile of the thread states, a plot hole character, and why I, personally, don't like her. If you do like her despite, or even because of, all that, more power to you. However, remember the character I described in my earilier post? I just want to know whether, if a character liked that appeared in the next Gundam SEED, you could like her?

Well, could you?
The Joiner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 12:22   Link #73
tritoch
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chi-town
Somebody answer my question about Lacus making a mistake.
__________________
All time Fave list:Honey and Clover; Saiunkoku Monogatari; Kodomo no Omocha; Air/Kanon; Infinite Ryvius; Bartender; Nana; Char's Counter Attack; Shadow Skill TV
tritoch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 13:43   Link #74
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I think there are two kinds of like/dislike we aren't separating properly here...

One is the like/dislike of... I'm not sure how to say this... personal qualities? For example, you can, IRL, like nice people, or people who like rock'n'roll, or whatever. And that taste will show in what anime characters you like (or dislike).

The other is the like/dislike for the role they have in stories. As in, do they make the story Cool, or Stupid. For example, if, in GS3 ep1, Son Goku arrives from the DBZ universe, destroys the Earth and Plants with his bare hands, and goes back home - it'll make the story Stupid, and we'll all start disliking Son Goku for reasons which have nothing to do with his personality.


I look at Lacus with the first point of view, and that's why I like her: she's nice, soft spoken, idealistic, determined, and so on. All qualities I find admirable in RL people.

As for the second point of view: it's true that her plans Just Work, when they ought to get her killed. But:
1) I don't care, because I'm not watching Gundam for a lesson in strategy or politics. If I wanted that, I'd read history books.
2) When that sort of thing happens, and I care, I blame the writer(s), not any specific character of theirs. I don't say "this character sucks", I say "the story sucks".
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 13:54   Link #75
tritoch
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chi-town
But GSD's story doesn't suck.
__________________
All time Fave list:Honey and Clover; Saiunkoku Monogatari; Kodomo no Omocha; Air/Kanon; Infinite Ryvius; Bartender; Nana; Char's Counter Attack; Shadow Skill TV
tritoch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 14:25   Link #76
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joiner
While the issue was addressed in the ASTRY books, that wasn't really the point. Why send him to PLANT? The trip there would be long, and even if Kira was stable, if something went wrong on the flight there would be no way to fix it on the shuttle. Not to mention the inherent danger of being caught. What are they supposed to say if an EA ship bords them and finds an injured coordinator on board, especially with Blue Cosmos in control of a good bit of it by this point? They didn't have to involve any of the nations, there is this little place called the hospital . . .



Whatever the size of her ambition, the fact is that she never really slipped up in such a way that it hurt her. My point was to show that Alexander the Great was not as perfect or infalible as 4tran made him out to be. He was brilliant, but he wasn't infalible. As for the delgation arguement, Alexander delegated too, to his military governors. Remember what happened to them?



First of all, a page or so back, you used Kira's defeat of a single Destroy to show that Lacus wasn't a GameShark. Now you're saying that the defeat of five Destroys isn't a feat worthy enough to consider Shinn a skilled adversary. Which is it? Either one Destroy is a feat difficult enough to be worth of the great Kira, or five Destroys is easy enough that even the "unworthy" Shinn can accomplish it.

Second, see above.

Third, what do you mean, ultimate evil? The EA was portrayed as being the ultimate evil in GSD. The EA was ruled by racists and weapon merchants. The EA's goal was to kill every last coordinator. The EA built the Destroys and Requem, not to mention trying to nuke PLANT early on. ZAFT and Dullindal, evil though they might be, were portayed at several points as being simply misguided. (The episode 29 clip show, for example) The Clyne faction fought the EA three times in the entire series (the two ambushes on the Minerva and the battle against the first Destroy) while they fought ZAFT six times (the two ambushes on the Minerva, Operation Angel Down, the Eternal's flight from the asteroid, the Second Battle of Orb, and the final battle)

Forth, my problem is not with their power. My problem is with their invinciblity. While the Clyne faction would need power to defeat ZAFT, they recieve no losses in the final battle (yes I know that a DOM and a ZAKU get damaged in Final Plus, but that's it.) While extreme power is an aproprate counter for extreme numbers, that does mean that the side with extreme numbers should get some respect and victories. Watch GaoGaiGar FINAL sometime. The main hero, Guy, has an infinate power source, but he still gets hurt and damaged during the fighting, and in the end, he has to sacrifice everything for victory.

Finally, calm down. I'm not trying to insult you here. I'm just staiting the reasons why I believe Lacus to be, as the titile of the thread states, a plot hole character, and why I, personally, don't like her. If you do like her despite, or even because of, all that, more power to you. However, remember the character I described in my earilier post? I just want to know whether, if a character liked that appeared in the next Gundam SEED, you could like her?

Well, could you?
Where did I say Shinn destroying five Destroys wasn't an accomplishment? It was one hell of an accomplishment. HOWEVER, the same technique he used to murder the destroys is probably the single worst thing you can do against high-maneuver smaller suits like Freedom and Justice...let me make a nice little analogy here...if you want to enjoy your soup, you're going to put it in the microwave and heat it up. Are you going to enjoy ice cream the same way? Hell no. While microwaving the soup definitely worked for Shinn (thxing destroys with raargh chop chop), microwaving the ice cream was definitely major no thx (raargh chop chopping freedom and justice).

As for losses, I'm sure the Clyne Faction lost some grunts, just like everyone else did . But as for aces, well, that's what makes them aces. That they DON'T get shot down.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 14:26   Link #77
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joiner
Whatever the size of her ambition, the fact is that she never really slipped up in such a way that it hurt her. My point was to show that Alexander the Great was not as perfect or infalible as 4tran made him out to be. He was brilliant, but he wasn't infalible. As for the delgation arguement, Alexander delegated too, to his military governors. Remember what happened to them?
But that's because Lacus has competent people around her who have the same beliefs as her. Her success depends on these people, not on her own. And that is believable since it's a fact of life that you would do better in life when there's capable people to help you and open doors for you.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 14:34   Link #78
tritoch
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chi-town
Quote:
Forth, my problem is not with their power. My problem is with their invinciblity. While the Clyne faction would need power to defeat ZAFT, they recieve no losses in the final battle (yes I know that a DOM and a ZAKU get damaged in Final Plus, but that's it.) While extreme power is an aproprate counter for extreme numbers, that does mean that the side with extreme numbers should get some respect and victories.
Also the Clyne Faction who participated at the end of GSD was just the Eternal. It was still the 3 ship alliance not the Clyne Faction.

Quote:
Third, what do you mean, ultimate evil? The EA was portrayed as being the ultimate evil in GSD. The EA was ruled by racists and weapon merchants. The EA's goal was to kill every last coordinator. The EA built the Destroys and Requem, not to mention trying to nuke PLANT early on. ZAFT and Dullindal, evil though they might be, were portayed at several points as being simply misguided. (The episode 29 clip show, for example) The Clyne faction fought the EA three times in the entire series (the two ambushes on the Minerva and the battle against the first Destroy) while they fought ZAFT six times (the two ambushes on the Minerva, Operation Angel Down, the Eternal's flight from the asteroid, the Second Battle of Orb, and the final battle)
Misguided huh? Assassination attempt, propaganda, eliminating Meer after he's done using her, Heck even firing your superweapon on your soldiers. the only thing he was misguided upon is believing to himself that he could change the world by doing the "destiny plan."
__________________
All time Fave list:Honey and Clover; Saiunkoku Monogatari; Kodomo no Omocha; Air/Kanon; Infinite Ryvius; Bartender; Nana; Char's Counter Attack; Shadow Skill TV
tritoch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-04, 19:07   Link #79
flamingtroll
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
Lacus is clearly the real evil in Gundam SEED guys... quit kidding yourselves...
I second that. I believe she is the REAL ultimate coordinator and must have some sort of newtype telepathic power to be able to sway so many people's opinion with her singing.

It would be funny if she becomes some sort of twisted version of Hamman in Seed 3 (Hopefully it will never happen), and her lapdogs Athrun and Kira piloting Gazu L and R "gundams" on her side.
flamingtroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-06-05, 03:23   Link #80
Nameless
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
I agree with Demongod, and guys, you haven't seen the end of Gundam Seed.

Remember they are planning a third season and some movies even, I heard.

Did any of you watch Gundam Wing? That had some invincible heros too but they eventually died.

You need great heros to defeat great foes, and I'm getting sick of the cliche "uber extremely powerful villain that you manage to defeat by LUCK not skill and he manages to kill three girls you loved, your mother, your father, your best friend, half of your country's army and 30% of Earth's population". It's just been EXTREMELY depressing in the anime universe, and I'm refreshed that people like Kira/Lacus exist. They're so PERFECT TOGETHER as a team/couple that their ideals and skills compliment each other.

Also, in this particular universe, it's not far fetched for Lacus to have as much an influence as she does. For one: She's not just beautiful, she's a beautiful singer too. She's touched people's hearts with her songs. Now sure, one might say in TODAY's day and age/media, it wouldn't be possible for a singer to accomplish that, but to that I ask you, how is media in today's world anyway?

I stopped listening to modern music. You know why? Most of the singers/entertainers in today's media disgust me. If we actually HAD a singer like Lacus in our reality, it might not be that far fetched that she'd have political influence. Look at 50 Cent. He's a lot more than just a rapper. Sure, rap music sucks right now and so does 50 CEnt's, but that doesn't change how powerful his influence is. In New York he's untouchable, a lot of people want him dead that can't kill him, he makes over 60 million dollars a year AFTER taxes/deductions. He's 100% real, you can even meet him if you want.

The only difference is 50 Cent is 26/27 and Lacus was 16 when this all happened, but in the Gundam Seed universe a LOT of things happen 10 years in advance to what happens in our universe.

For one, a lot of 15-18 year olds in Gundam Seed are the most skilled pilots of Gundams. There are also young captains, young fighters, young politicians.

What I ask you- OP- Is this... Is today's policy actually working? Sure most of our politicians are old, experienced, aged, not talented, not singers, not good looking, but then I ask you... Are today's politicians even GOOD? Bush is US president and he's BLOWING right now. A lot of our soldiers are across the seas dying, for OIL and WAL MART, he has a 30% support percentage in the US.

Maybe young politicians isn't so unbelievable after all. Especially when you factor that with age comes a lot of other things other than experience- Worn out body, worn out senses, loss of brain cells, lost reaction time/reflexes, power trip.

I'm with the believers, and it's not because I like Lacus. I think Lacus/Kira are great together, but my harem girl in this anime is Lunamaria and my favorite character is Athrun, not Kira.

I think Kira/Lacus are believable because they're what's needed to fight the foes they face. And I don't think they're invincible either, I just think Destiny was "their" time. When the next GS series comes out, you'll see that your heros aren't in fact invincible at all.
Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.