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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 235 66.01%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 79 22.19%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 27 7.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.97%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.28%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.28%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 5 1.40%
Voters: 356. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-06-25, 13:55   Link #461
C.A.
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Well, since there's no episode 13 thread, I'll just post here that the raws are out.
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Old 2006-06-25, 14:12   Link #462
Ardee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCeh
IMO, she wouldn't have asked the question in the first place if she was going to drag the 2 members and do whatever she wanted. It just wouldn't make sense.
There's one more bit of background (well, forground!) evidence that it was voluntary all around, at (4:25):



Between the time of Haruhi seeing the problem, and Haruhi running with Yuki, the other two band members sprint by on their own. That has to be "We've still got a chance if we hurry!"

Edit: Hehe, Isn't that a guitar on the drummer's back, and the bass guitarist with nothing? I guess they went to get another for Haruhi or Yuki.

Last edited by Ardee; 2006-06-25 at 14:24.
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Old 2006-06-25, 14:29   Link #463
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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There's one more bit of background (well, forground!) evidence that it was voluntary all around, at (4:25):
You are still missing my point; the problem isn't that it was, truthfully, voluntary, but that Haruhi didn't believe it was voluntary.

She is so used to forcing everyone into doing what she want through pure willpower, that the concept people might be grateful for her involvement completely escapes her.

As far as the band members are concerned, Haruhi was a saviour. But until the band members came to thank her, Haruhi herself didn't belive she had done anything to be thankful for. Thus this explains why Haruhi was willing to help the band members; she didn't know she was helping anyone. It was a flight of fancy that developed a life of its own, like anything else Haruhi gets involved in.

The concept "I was doing the band members a favour", did not once crossed her mind.
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Old 2006-06-25, 14:35   Link #464
LCeh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
You are still missing my point; the problem isn't that it was, truthfully, voluntary, but that Haruhi didn't believe it was voluntary.

She is so used to forcing everyone into doing what she want through pure willpower, that the concept people might be grateful for her involvement completely escapes her.

As far as the band members are concerned, Haruhi was a saviour. But until the band members came to thank her, Haruhi herself didn't belive she had done anything to be thankful for. Thus this explains why Haruhi was willing to help the band members; she didn't know she was helping anyone. It was a flight of fancy that developed a life of its own, like anything else Haruhi gets involved in.

The concept "I was doing the band members a favour", did not once crossed her mind.
Ahh I see, I get your point now. The reason why she "helped" them out was because she just didn't want to see a group of hard working, dedicated group of people fail at the end of such a long trip, which is what she would hate to see happen to herself, so she stopped that from happening, and through that, she indirectly helped out the band member. Is that what you meant?
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Old 2006-06-25, 14:39   Link #465
Ardee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
The concept "I was doing the band members a favour", did not once crossed her mind.
This is exactly how I see it. Some people were picturing them feeling coerced, though, and I'm just pointing out that they don't object.
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Old 2006-06-25, 14:44   Link #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCeh
Ahh I see, I get your point now. The reason why she "helped" them out was because she just didn't want to see a group of hard working, dedicated group of people fail at the end of such a long trip, which is what she would hate to see happen to herself, so she stopped that from happening, and through that, she indirectly helped out the band member. Is that what you meant?
Yep. The concept that she helped someone was as much a shock to herself as to some of the viewers, when it finally sunk in 12 hour later.
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Old 2006-06-25, 14:55   Link #467
LCeh
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K, but I think even with that, at that point, I think she realized that she wasn't superior to them, or else she wouldn't have asked if they needed their help and just did what she wanted. If they were SOS dan members, then surely she would have just took charge already, because she doesn't feel the need to ask for their permission. But the fact that she asked if they needed her help already showed development in her part imo, which is still great to see. She unconsciously already put them at her level imo.
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Old 2006-06-25, 18:25   Link #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi
I think that everyone who says that Haruhi tried to make a power play in regards to the band is barking up the wrong tree.

Why would she trouble herself helping the band when she had a movie to promote?

Why would she want to put up with finding someone to help her on short notice, then practice hard for an hour or so when all she could really be doing was passing out flyers for her movie?

I would think that her movie was more important than the troubles of a high school pop band.

So why did Haruhi do it? Her explanation to Kyon was all that needed to be said.

And having Kyon standing next to her when she talked to the band was not for an alibi; he was her rock: the steady presence that enabled her to calm down the butterflies in her stomach and talk to the band.
I'm quoting myself to emphasize my point about Haruhi's involvement with the band and to ask: why the flamin' heck does Haruhi asking someone if they need help means that she is trying to take over (or hijack) the situation?????????? PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME!!!!!

And I think that not finding what you were expecting and then leaving is not called being "fickle." Undecided what Mikuru should wear, now that is fickle!
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Old 2006-06-25, 18:31   Link #469
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the band members didnt mind that there were other ''temporary'' band members to play their songs
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Old 2006-06-25, 18:54   Link #470
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I think "fickle" isn't really the right word, as much as "impulsive". She decided to help the band on impulse, because she knew (somehow) about their situation, and liked them enough to want to help them. Total thought processes would probably go: "The band practiced hard -> The band needs help -> I like how the band practiced so hard -> I will help".

As for why she would ask permission, I think it's because she respects the band members for practicing so hard, and then wanting to perform with a broken wrist. That's something that she could identify with, and so they're "better" than the Mundanes who have no sense of adventure.

And contrary to opinions, Haruhi can, in fact, function in normal society when she wants to. Like asking permission.
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Old 2006-06-25, 19:49   Link #471
FatPianoBoy
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Originally Posted by dkellis
And contrary to opinions, Haruhi can, in fact, function in normal society when she wants to. Like asking permission.
She just doesn't want to very often :P


I don't think Haruhi had any concious alterior motives for helping them. Although her "of course everyone would want the originals" statement might indicate a desire for some fan appreciation beyond applause. In any case, her disappointed mannerisms would indicate that she was, well... disappointed in some way. Until Kyon cheered her up.
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Old 2006-06-25, 21:59   Link #472
ando
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
Could someone tell me why the haruhi 2ch episode thread is always double with that crap of a series himiwari?
Because Himawari! and Suzumiya Haruhi are aired successively on Sunday by both Chiba TV and TV Saitama.
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Old 2006-06-26, 08:12   Link #473
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi
I'm quoting myself to emphasize my point about Haruhi's involvement with the band and to ask: why the flamin' heck does Haruhi asking someone if they need help means that she is trying to take over (or hijack) the situation?????????? PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME!!!!!

And I think that not finding what you were expecting and then leaving is not called being "fickle." Undecided what Mikuru should wear, now that is fickle!
I think VCV did not mean "hijacking" literally. Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong VCV, but do you mean she was selfish in the sense that she did it for her own reasons, (all that "determination-not-going-to-waste" crap) and never actually thought of the band's well being?

While that would fit very much with Haruhi, it would kick out of the window my romantization of Haruhi showing her humane side. Sad. Hmm. Then again, she was pondering change at the end of the ep. But she reverted back again (dragging Kyon and all).

Quote:
"The band practiced hard -> The band needs help -> I like how the band practiced so hard -> I will help".
Selfish in a sense..
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Old 2006-06-26, 08:35   Link #474
Red_eyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
You are still missing my point; the problem isn't that it was, truthfully, voluntary, but that Haruhi didn't believe it was voluntary.

She is so used to forcing everyone into doing what she want through pure willpower, that the concept people might be grateful for her involvement completely escapes her.

As far as the band members are concerned, Haruhi was a saviour. But until the band members came to thank her, Haruhi herself didn't belive she had done anything to be thankful for. Thus this explains why Haruhi was willing to help the band members; she didn't know she was helping anyone. It was a flight of fancy that developed a life of its own, like anything else Haruhi gets involved in.

The concept "I was doing the band members a favour", did not once crossed her mind.
Yes what you say may be true but although the following point has been brought up, there hasn't been a very good explanation of why she would actually ask for permission to help. If she didn't think that she was helping them, and just wanted to help, she'd just say "I will help you guys" despite anything the band members say.

If it wasn't voluntary help and it was just something she wanted to do, it's equivalent to asking Kyon or anyone of the SOS members whether or not they actually wanted to go play baseball in the baseball episode rather than just sayiing "We're playing baseball" whether they like it or not.
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Old 2006-06-26, 09:04   Link #475
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Red_eyes
Yes what you say may be true but although the following point has been brought up, there hasn't been a very good explanation of why she would actually ask for permission to help. If she didn't think that she was helping them, and just wanted to help, she'd just say "I will help you guys" despite anything the band members say.

If it wasn't voluntary help and it was just something she wanted to do, it's equivalent to asking Kyon or anyone of the SOS members whether or not they actually wanted to go play baseball in the baseball episode rather than just sayiing "We're playing baseball" whether they like it or not.
Haruhi always wants to help the human race; she just assumes that no one wants anything to do with her. Haruhi genuinely believes that SOS-dan does good to its club members and the world. I can't imagine Haruhi backing down if the band refused her offer; that's not what she does.

(off-topic rant ahead. Ignore if you wish)

Spoiler:


If Harhui didn't believe she was being selfish, then there would not have been such a surprise from being thanked.
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Old 2006-06-26, 09:06   Link #476
Shirobane
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Originally Posted by Lost
Selfish in a sense..
Sorry for the cynical point of view, but volunteerism is never selfless. A good majority of people who volunteer do so for career advancement or exposure. This fact is prevalent in social cities where resumes can only get you so far. The idea of selfishness in volunteering extends all the way down to those that do it for that "warm and fuzzy feeling". No one else benefits from that feeling except for that one person who volunteered their time. However, the by-product of all this greed and selfishness is that a few unfortunate people are aided.

The important thing is not wether or not selfishness played a part in her aiding those in need, but that she didn't want all that hard work and determination to go to waste and that's all she saw. Like VCV said, she didn't know this action would have actively helped someone. Up until this point, her actions have produced resistance and dismay from those around her. Thus explains her unease for recieving praise for her actions.
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Old 2006-06-26, 09:16   Link #477
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Very true (where I am, most students participate in charity because they have to), yet that doesnt mean that volunteerism in its truest sense is doomed. I see I see. Nice view.
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Old 2006-06-26, 13:17   Link #478
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirobane
Sorry for the cynical point of view, but volunteerism is never selfless. A good majority of people who volunteer do so for career advancement or exposure. This fact is prevalent in social cities where resumes can only get you so far. The idea of selfishness in volunteering extends all the way down to those that do it for that "warm and fuzzy feeling". No one else benefits from that feeling except for that one person who volunteered their time. However, the by-product of all this greed and selfishness is that a few unfortunate people are aided.

The important thing is not wether or not selfishness played a part in her aiding those in need, but that she didn't want all that hard work and determination to go to waste and that's all she saw. Like VCV said, she didn't know this action would have actively helped someone. Up until this point, her actions have produced resistance and dismay from those around her. Thus explains her unease for recieving praise for her actions.
The specific term is called "altruism".... the idea is that volunteering or providing aid/assistance/charity is a "win-win" because a cooperative society means that when *YOU* might need help down the road someone will be there. There's also the more immediate "win-win" where volunteering means your scorecard looks better for applying for whatever you're trying to achieve. My observation is that even most in that category will go past the minimum out of a sense of altruistic obligation. There is a certain percentage of the population that is purely manipulative, uncaring, and generally worthless --- but we usually end up making them leaders, bosses, and politicians
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Old 2006-06-30, 15:49   Link #479
Ending
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This episode made me feel kinda sad due of the band -thing. Obviously when someone has skills like that and likes of it, it will be the end of other activities. And since the series and the SOS club is mostly about Haruhi, it would make perfect sense if she left to follow rockstar career and the club would wither out. So much of the serie...

My 2 cc.
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Old 2006-06-30, 17:11   Link #480
Vexx
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??? Haruhi and Yuki only stood in for that one performance. She's not joining the band (ENOZ). She's going to *form* one with Kyon, Yuki, Mikuru, and Itsuki for next year's school cultural festival as part of the SOS Brigade activities. Something NOT alien/esper related... probably the first such "normal" activity she's enjoyed since 3 years ago.

Methinks you misinterpreted Haruhi's intent. Besides the club members *can't* let her out of their sight --- she could remake the world in a funk. Where ever she goes they have to follow.
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