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Old 2004-01-05, 18:12   Link #21
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious
[...]
not even the Kaiten would stop Lee's attacks.
[...]
You think that the Kaiten that was able to deflect a blow of Naruto in Kyubi's state, having more than enough chakra surrounding him to summon Gamabunta, wouldn't stop an attack of Lee?

I mean, the fact that maybe Neji couldn't have the reflexes necessary to counter an attack of Lee at his maximum speed with the Kaiten is quite possible, that's why you can't say for sure that who would win.

But there is no way that a simple physical blow can pierce the Kaiten just because it's fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathyfinder
I felt Neji's speed ability may of increased after his fight with Naruto in the exam.
Well maybe, but it wasn't my point
In term of pure speed Neji can't match (by far) Lee's with the Gates open anyway.
The capacity of Neji that I mentionned is about chakra's control, not about speed.

GreyArea, you answered to yourself.
The manga shows that Neji was training (like everybody) with the kaiten before the last exam.
The anime shows that Neji didn't knew the kaiten before the preliminary.
It's vastly different.
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Old 2004-01-05, 18:27   Link #22
raikage
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I hate to say THIS (actually, no I don't )
but in cases where the anime and manga conflict, IMHO the manga is canon. It's where the creator has the most control, sometimes the anime is edited by someone else in order to make the story flow better according to their standards, not the creator's.

That said, the manga gives a very strong impression (not explicitly stated, but heavily implied) that the Kaiten has been in Neji's arsenal for quite a while. As Tenten describes the move, nowhere does she say it's a recent addition, recently mastered, or anything to indicate that Neji learned it within the month.

Remember, the Ura Renge has a time limit. If Neji can somehow, in some secret way fend off Rock for the time period (seems to be less than 5 minutes?) then Rock will be completely, utterly defenseless.
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Old 2004-01-05, 18:42   Link #23
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Hmm Raikage I agree with almost all your post exept that
Quote:
Theory: Although the Kaiten can protect Neji from the first attack, it will not incapacitate Rock the way it would other ninjas
Actually I think that it's exactly the opposite ^^

The Kaiten stop and returns the power of the attack by turning like a spin.
Thus the stronger the attack is, the worst will be the damage inflicted by the Kaiten (but indeed the more that requires chakra).

In the case of Lee who has the body already damaged by the Ura Renge, he wouldn't resist a direct shock against a true wall of chakra which would blast him away.
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:04   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
You think that the Kaiten that was able to deflect a blow of Naruto in Kyubi's state, having more than enough chakra surrounding him to summon Gamabunta, wouldn't stop an attack of Lee?

I mean, the fact that maybe Neji couldn't have the reflexes necessary to counter an attack of Lee at his maximum speed with the Kaiten is quite possible, that's why you can't say for sure that who would win.

But there is no way that a simple physical blow can pierce the Kaiten just because it's fast.
Hunter-san, do you think Neji would even be able to use the Kaiten? Honestly, I don't think so

Neji's now faster than Lee without weights, this is true. His speed now equals to Sasuke and Naruto. But Lee with the 5 Gates opened has pretty much Gai's speed. Gai-sensei is obviously much faster than Neji. My point is that Lee would beat him fast enough, without giving Neji a single chance of defending himself.
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:09   Link #25
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Let's be realistic though. Lee in his current state cannot beat Neji. Before he fought Garaa yeah defenately, but now... sadly no ( if he got better in the mange after CH 155 don't tell me I havent read past that one yet )
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:15   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Siren
Let's be realistic though. Lee in his current state cannot beat Neji. Before he fought Garaa yeah defenately, but now... sadly no ( if he got better in the mange after CH 155 don't tell me I havent read past that one yet )
You'll note that in the very first post I asked this question based on the possibility that he didn't fight Gaara and wasn't injured.
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:28   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasuke Uchiha
You'll note that in the very first post I asked this question based on the possibility that he didn't fight Gaara and wasn't injured.
You're picking on me... I'm tellin' my mommy

Ok... if that was the case Lee would Kick Neji's ass to oblivion and back
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:33   Link #28
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let me make this simple lee would win because (yes i have a logical reason not just some lee ranting cus he is the man) gai says when lee uses ura renge against gaara "that is the key to defeating neji" lee also says "neji i was saving this to beat you...." so i thik lee definetly couldhave beat neji
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:34   Link #29
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I know that Vicious, I said several times in this thread that Lee with the gates is greately faster than Neji (and btw I don't think that Neji has the same speed of Lee without the weight, he's fast but not that fast -but he's far faster than Naruto-), I just disagreed with your point about the fact that Lee's attack could break the Kaiten
And like you didn't contradict this point I deduce that you finally agree with me

I will explain my point once again more clearly.
Before the last fight of Neji in the manga, I thought too that if Neji could beat Lee without the weights in a fight, there was no way that he could win against Lee with the 5 gates open.
Lee was just too fast for his reflexes even with the Byakugan and Neji hasn't an automatic defense like Gaara, at the speed of Lee, each one of his blow would have destroyed the part of Neji's body touched.

But now
Spoiler:

And thus crushed Lee above.
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:38   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyque
Hard to say, Neji's eyes might have been able to pick lee up, but still, even if Neji could see Lee, there's the fact that Lee's physical power is probably the highest of all the genins, I mean, how to you block a kick that has the power of a mac truck bearing down on you?
lol I know, but seriously Xyque you have the coolest Avatar I have ever seen
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:46   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Hmm Raikage I agree with almost all your post exept that


Actually I think that it's exactly the opposite ^^

The Kaiten stop and returns the power of the attack by turning like a spin.
Thus the stronger the attack is, the worst will be the damage inflicted by the Kaiten (but indeed the more that requires chakra).

In the case of Lee who has the body already damaged by the Ura Renge, he wouldn't resist a direct shock against a true wall of chakra which would blast him away.
i totally agree with him....

i believe that Lee would have opened up his gates and go after Neji with his primary lotus but Neji would have used kaiten to stop his attack...

Lee with the pain that was inflicted by Neji's kaiten and the pain from opening up his gates would have to take some time to recover and would not have the speed to dodge any attacks that Neji throws at him

Neji being the genius that he is would use that advantage to use his 64 hands of hakke on Lee and Lee would lose.
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:46   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
I know that Vicious, I said several times in this thread that Lee with the gates is greately faster than Neji (and btw I don't think that Neji has the same speed of Lee without the weight, he's fast but not that fast -but he's far faster than Naruto-), I just disagreed with your point about the fact that Lee's attack could break the Kaiten
And like you didn't contradict this point I deduces that you finally agree with me

I will explain my point once again more clearly.
Before the last fight of Neji in the manga, I thought too that if Neji could beat Lee without the weights, in a fight, there was no way that he could win against Lee with the 5 gates open.
Lee was just too fast for his reflexes even with the Byakugan and Neji hasn't an automatic defense like Gaara, at the speed of Lee, each one of his blow would have destroyed the part of Neji's body touched.

But now
Spoiler:

And thus crushed Lee above.
Yeah, pretty much what I said, I just disagreed that Neji would be fast enough to even *use* the Kaiten. But we can't know if he can or if he can't (well, now he can easily beat Lee lol). Would Neji even feel Lee's presence at the speed of sound? Well, we don't know. But I still don't think so

Of course I agree with you! Why wouldn't I? We always seek for the best explanation or theory, we've disagreed on very few threads. And you're my evil twin after all... or am I the evil twin?
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Old 2004-01-05, 19:58   Link #33
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I think basically, if Neji could get Lee with the 64 Hands of Hakke, he would win. Otherwise Lee would win.

If Neji had even two functional braincells, Lee wouldnt get the chance to use the Ura Renge, while he is breaking the gates open, Neji would *cough* touch him all over and render him unable to move. However, shoujo manga characters are always polite enough to let their aggressor power up fully before attacking.

Im not sure if having the Kaiten would make much difference to the outcome of a figth between them. He would be able to deflect / counter Lee's attacks (even without the weights, I'd gamble) but surely Neji would run out of chakra before Lee ran out of stamina.
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Old 2004-01-05, 20:03   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious
Yeah, pretty much what I said, I just disagreed that Neji would be fast enough to even *use* the Kaiten. But we can't know if he can or if he can't (well, now he can easily beat Lee lol). Would Neji even feel Lee's presence at the speed of sound? Well, we don't know. But I still don't think so
Personally I think so because
Spoiler:


But yeah we wil never know ^^

Quote:
Of course I agree with you! Why wouldn't I? We always seek for the best explanation or theory, we've disagreed on very few threads. And you're my evil twin after all... or am I the evil twin?
Btw *cough* go to the thread about Kakashi *cough*

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Old 2004-01-05, 20:50   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Hmm Raikage I agree with almost all your post exept that


Actually I think that it's exactly the opposite ^^

The Kaiten stop and returns the power of the attack by turning like a spin.
Thus the stronger the attack is, the worst will be the damage inflicted by the Kaiten (but indeed the more that requires chakra).

In the case of Lee who has the body already damaged by the Ura Renge, he wouldn't resist a direct shock against a true wall of chakra which would blast him away.
Let me clarify this very quickly...
Yes, the Kaiten will cause much more bodily injury to Lee, who is travelling faster and hitting harder than usually humanly possible.

However, the Ura Renge puts him into a trance-like state where he doesn't feel pain (as shown by his tearing his muscle right off the bone), so the PAIN wouldn't stop him the way it seems to do to other fighters. He'd be able to keep going and fighting until the time expires and he reverts back to normal Rock.
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Old 2004-01-05, 21:08   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
He'd (Lee) be able to keep going and fighting until the time expires and he reverts back to normal Rock....
and after that time period Lee's body becomes a ueless pile of bone and muscle. If the wind blows little bit over than 2 knots, he goes down. All Neji needs to do is keep up with his defense against Lee's attacks that pretty much will come faster than the speed of sound.. Hmmmmm.. There is still no solution. Cursed noggin scratcher of a VS thread. Not to mention Neji and Lee knows each other better than anyone since this two has trained together under Guy-sensei.
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Old 2004-01-05, 21:26   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
Let me clarify this very quickly...
Yes, the Kaiten will cause much more bodily injury to Lee, who is travelling faster and hitting harder than usually humanly possible.

However, the Ura Renge puts him into a trance-like state where he doesn't feel pain (as shown by his tearing his muscle right off the bone), so the PAIN wouldn't stop him the way it seems to do to other fighters. He'd be able to keep going and fighting until the time expires and he reverts back to normal Rock.

no, the ura renge does not put him in a trance like state in which Lee feels no pain... Lee jus chose to ignore the pain and keep going with his move... however this does work at the moment of the move but once he stops he can not recover as shown in the gaara vs. lee fight

lee used the ura renge on gaara but gaara was saved by his gourd and started to attack lee... lee could not recover in time and dodge it, due to the amount of pain he was in, and the result was him losing the match...
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Old 2004-01-05, 22:26   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcrzythaiguyx
no, the ura renge does not put him in a trance like state in which Lee feels no pain... Lee jus chose to ignore the pain and keep going with his move... however this does work at the moment of the move but once he stops he can not recover as shown in the gaara vs. lee fight
Dont really get what your saying, but, opening the 5 celestial gates required to perform the Ura Renge does stop Lee from feeling the extremities of the pain he would otherwise be feeling, as there's no way he's be able to move otherwise, with his muscles being torn to shreds and all.
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Old 2004-01-05, 22:54   Link #39
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in my opinion, gaara was the only one who could have defeated rock in the preliminaries. no one else was fast enough, or had a defense like gaara's to counteract lee's powerful and speedy attacks. it was just unlucky that lee had to fight his strongest opposition.

on another note, does gaara's ability to have sand protect him use chakara? and if so, does it use a small amount, or a large amount?

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Old 2004-01-05, 23:06   Link #40
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isnt the 64 Hands of Hakke kinda pointless against lee because him opening the gates make both skills the exact oppisites and it nullify or one can over come another depending on which one is used first- 64 Hands of Hakke are used to close holes but opening gates forces chakra holes open just like how naruto vrs neji after kyubii awakened
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