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Old 2006-07-17, 12:59   Link #21
Vexx
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So.. if the "majority of anime is simple-minded trash aimed at kids" ... perhaps it would be helpful if MrProphet provided some examples of anime he thinks highly of?

Otherwise, I call troll because you can reduce *any* story or piece of literature to shreds by labeling characters using cardboard archetypes and then making generalized assertions. The four terms you define ("sanguine" ,etc) are fine but they are western based archetypes for western literature. Eastern literature uses different enough archetypes that it is more useful to use eastern terms for them ... otherwise the labels never really fit.
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Old 2006-07-17, 13:08   Link #22
MrProphet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
First, Haruhi was ONLY ever dere to Kyon in any significant sense. Second, she is dere to him only when there is a reasonable amount of privacy and the two of them are engaged in a relatively private interaction.

As such, I can't see how you can say Kyon doesn't seem to influence Haruhi's dereness. Sure, I don't think Kyon "triggers" it as if he had a definite causal link like claps produce sounds. Instead, his presence potentiates the opportunity for dere-ness.. and the situation or Haruhi herself decides what sort of attitude to display towards the people around her, including Kyon. And I do think that's what important.
I don't think the plot supports these conclusions. Let's go in more detail. Haruhi was dere to Kyon on 4 occasions:

1) Lone Island Syndrome (on the cliffs in the rain)
2) Live Alive (after the concert)
3) Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu V (at the railroad)
4) Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu VI (in the sealed dimension)

Of these four, only the Lone Island Syndrome occurance can be reasonably construed as having been caused by Kyon (he fell from the cliff), and even in this case it can be argued that she was dere-dere because of the atmosphere of mystery that she encountered, and Kyon was only "the last straw".

In any case, the 3 other events were completely unrelated to Kyon. In Live Alive she is dere-dere because of the adrenaline boost after the concert. In the finale, the case of dere-dere is triggered first by brooding about Asakura (or lack of her), and then by the validation of her dreams about actually finding aliens.

Kyon does not feature in Haruhi's transit to dere-ness at all and acts only as an observer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
So.. if the "majority of anime is simple-minded trash aimed at kids" ... perhaps it would be helpful if MrProphet provided some examples of anime he thinks highly of?
Anime I admire? That's easy. Shoujo Kakumei Utena, Tenkuu no Escaflowne, Ghost in the Shell, RahXephon, to name a few. And the point of this is?

Quote:
Otherwise, I call troll because you can reduce *any* story or piece of literature to shreds by labeling characters using cardboard archetypes and then making generalized assertions. The four terms you define ("sanguine" ,etc) are fine but they are western based archetypes for western literature. Eastern literature uses different enough archetypes that it is more useful to use eastern terms for them ... otherwise the labels never really fit.
Somehow I doubt that the 'tsundere' archetype is grounded in eastern literature. And examples to support the point? 8)
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Old 2006-07-17, 13:25   Link #23
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProphet
Of these four, only the Lone Island Syndrome occurance can be reasonably construed as having been caused by Kyon (he fell from the cliff), and even in this case it can be argued that she was dere-dere because of the atmospere of mystery that she encountered, and Kyon was only "the last straw".

In any case, the 3 other events were completely unrelated to Kyon. In Live Alive she is dere-dere because of the adrenaline boost after the concert. In the finale, the case of dere-dere is triggered first by brooding about Asakura (or lack of her), and then by the validation of her dreams about actually finding aliens.

Kyon does not feature in Haruhi's transit to dere-ness at all and acts only as an observer.
Did you actually read my post

I already said that Kyon's role in Haruhi's dereness is not absolutely causal but CONTINGENTLY causal. And we don't have to only take examples from the anime; I've read the entire series up till Volume 7. If you haven't read it, then of course, your conception of Suzumiya Haruhi will be different from mine.

In any case, your arguments are weak and unconvincing. I do not see how you can justify the adrenaline boost after the concert as contributing to the dere-ness. That is incredibly speculative, and if you have any knowledge of the craft of novel-writing then you must know that the scene showing them together and her being dere is an INTENTIONAL act by the author. He wanted us to see them together like that, and he wanted to display Haruhi's dere-ness then. I don't see how your reasoning is even remotely plausible.

Two more points; would Haruhi have been similarly dere if it were the others who were around her at those four scenes? Would she have told Itsuki about her past if he were the one at the railroad scene? But no, this problem in SuzuHaru has to be given a broader treatment.. The fact is, her powers ENABLE the selective presence of Kyon during those very scenes. In fact, after Live Alive, in the novel, it writes suggestively that Kyon's body "directed him" (as if unconsciously) to where Haruhi was.. under the tree. If that isn't a play on her powers, then I don't know what is. There are also multiple times throughout the novel where the three continually mention Kyon's importance to Haruhi, and Itsuki has already even asserted that Kyon is the "chosen one", who Haruhi "wants to be with".

These suggest that if you argue that it was the situation that prompted Haruhi's dere-ness, we have to consider how much of an influence Haruhi had on creating the situation. From the God-theory, and anything else, I would say that there's a significant influence.


Second, we can also consider her jealous bouts.. displays of tsun behavior with underlying dere reasons (jealousy, being hurt etc). I think these are obviously linked, or should I say, directly caused by Kyon's behavior. I don't see how anyone can come up with any argument against this..



In other words, I think while your analysis is a somewhat decent attempt, you fail to consider the bigger picture. When you isolate one fact from the others, things become clearer --- but also more misleading.
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Old 2006-07-17, 13:36   Link #24
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProphet
So the majority of anime is not simple-minded trash aimed at little kids? That's news to me.
*shrug*

I won't debate that the target audience for most anime is teens. I also won't debate that alot of anime series aren't exactly deep material either. So what? If you ask me, the overall quality isn't lower than what you get when you go into a video rental. If your majesty MrProphet decrees that the majority of this stuff is simple-minded trash either, I can live with this pretty haughty assessment. If you don't, we'll have to disagree.

Quote:
Yet the fact remains and I will gladly provide another bishoujo-game example that would fit the same profile. Ai Yori Aoshi, anyone?
Also wrong. Zero out of two. Ai Yori Aoshi is a manga adaption, the anime followed later. There is a visual novel about AYA, but this was a very late addition, and it's no bishoujo game in the sense that you get to wed and bed the bishoujos. Instead, it's more of some extra episodes to the anime/manga, but cannot be classified "bishoujo game". Actually, because of this mistake I'm certain you haven't ever played the game, but still felt qualified to talk about it.

Quote:
3 words.... DAIKUJI AYU MOE.
Your point being? (Assuming that you HAVE a point, I shouldn't take that for granted anymore)

Quote:
In any case, I have no problem here. I understand that every hardcore fan needs a validation of his/her undying love. It's not enough to like something as a "guilty pleasure", instead one needs to confirm that one's admiration stems from the show's high artistic qualities. In other words, you can convince yourself about the "complex characters" all you want, but spare me such grief.
It's not a matter of "undying love" of a "hardcore fan", it's a matter of a reasonable and fair assessment of the qualities of an anime. I hope you have better arguments than just your sneering tone - because in substance you have been entirely unable to deliver so far.

Let's go just through the main character development:

Mitsuki - initially a genki and positive type, first develops some melancholy about handing over the guy that always felt special to her to her best friend. Develops a huge case of guilt over the accident. Piling up frustration over the next year while caring for the guy she likes, seeing him gradually come undone. Forces herself on him to build a shaky relationship over two years. Sees him noncommittal at first and then slowly slipping away after Haruka woke up. Takes some desperate measures based on bad advice by a coworker. Slips into depression, cheats on Bakayuki and summons up the spine to call it quits after she shees his lacking reaction to her confession. In the end, gives in to return after she gets credible evidence that her love _is_ properly requited after all.

So. That's a simple one-dimensional character for you? Not for me, I consider this a very gripping character study. And also fairly realistic - since I have had certain real life experiences which came quite close in several parts. Looking forward to your compelling counterarguments.

Quote:
Kimi ga... is a fairly good, enjoyable show that somewhat rises above the general fold with an unexpected plot-twist in the beginning, yet to claim that the distinct look of characters does not stem from the generalizing tradition of most date-sims and that it is not used to underscore character profiles is either a lie or ignorance.
Are you still talking about the LOOK? Frankly, I couldn't care less about the LOOKS. I'm talking about the characters, the CONTENTS of the anime. I also couldn't care less if the source was a novel, a bishoujo game, a manga or whatever. I'm interested in the STORY.

YOU are the one who is so desperately trying to force characters into silly cliches. Don't demand that I do the same.

Quote:
Oh, and for the record, I can distinguish between characters based on something other than their look. Yet I am somewhat older that the target audience of such shows and I don't need visual cues like A-cup, B-cup or C-cup. But to claim that the creators do not use such visual cues is nonsense.
I never made this claim, of course some creators do. But even so, what's the point? Every medium of entertainment has the same limitation. Is a novel bad because the romantic interest of a typical male lead is a typical blonde bombshell? Thank you, I'm more interested in looking deeper than making shallow complaints based on oblivious observations.

Quote:
Of course! But the very fact that these kind of characters are scripted to have ONLY TWO precise layers of personality without any shades of gray or warping is already a testament to the flatness of ANY such a character.
Who the heck says they have only two? Your logical errors are beginning to get tiring. To warrant the label of tsundere, they need AT LEAST these two layers. They can have much more than those.

Quote:
The only thing that the creators can differentiate is the means by which those two layers are presented, i.e. "she is mean because..." and "she is sweet because..."
Flat-out wrong. Since we're at KimiNozo, please characterize Akane this way. Explain what she does throughout the anime with these two layers you're gonna define. In return I'll point out which of her actions don't fit with such a reduced characterization.

Quote:
And frankly, the overwhelming evidence only points to mediocricity of presentation. Aside from a few stars, most such 'tsundere' characters don't have an interesting story behind their idiosyncratic behaviour.
You've presented no evidence whatsoever. Just alot of idle claims, alot of haughty words and alot of factual errors.

Quote:
I can present you a multitude of female characters that are strong without being tsundere or one-dimensional. Nausicaa, Motoko Kusanagi, Yoko Nakajima, Priss Asagiri, etc.
Next non-sequitur. Nobody claimed you have the be tsundere to be strong. And besides, Priss is certainly a tsundere (see BGC2040)

Quote:
Also, for the most part the basis for the "change in attitude" is arbitrary and involved having the hots for some guy. Which is to be expected from a date-sim, but does not point to a really innovative character development.
Is your entire tirade just based on bishoujo-game tsunderes? Hello, MrProphet, wake up please. Tsundere is a classification which is NOT restricted to bishoujo-game characters.
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Old 2006-07-17, 13:38   Link #25
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProphet


Anime I admire? That's easy. Shoujo Kakumei Utena, Tenkuu no Escaflowne, Ghost in the Shell, RahXephon, to name a few. And the point of this is?



Somehow I doubt that the 'tsundere' archetype is grounded in eastern literature. And examples to support the point? 8)
1) Just curious since you executed the moral equivalent of walking into an opera forum and posted that "most opera sucks". Not a great way to start a useful discussion. Perhaps if you hadn't said "most", I'd be less skeptical. You seem to admire anime with more depressing motifs. I like most of those, but don't tend to use them for emotional uplift. You're using Haruhi for a lot of examples, did you enjoy that?

2) ... because the Japanese themselves use these terms? You can find examples of this character type in both Chinese and Japanese film (live-action and animated). Strong women in western literature don't really exhibit the behavior pattern (though the "ice princess" archetype comes pretty close in some instances). I just think its more productive to use the terms a culture uses for analyzing their own stories.

Oh, if you are from Estonia ... a recent BBC News article said your country was the most wired/wireless in the world, including a "paperless government". Nice (as long as it actually works ).
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Old 2006-07-17, 14:28   Link #26
MrProphet
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This is getting a bit too long-winded, so for the sake of brevity, I'm hiding this under the spoiler tag.

Spoiler:

Last edited by MrProphet; 2006-07-17 at 14:40.
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Old 2006-07-17, 15:10   Link #27
Mentar
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Fine. Spoiler-protection it is. Only a brief reply to MrProphet.

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-07-17, 15:28   Link #28
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProphet
Oh, and for the record. For some reason, I see a pattern emerging here. Here I am on the AnimeSuki forum, talking about my experiences and voicing my opinions on various anime. Sometimes I even venture to criticise several series that I consider to be sub-standard. And this is not the first time that dear Mentar comes rushing to flame me for it. Strawberry Panic, Fate/Stay Night, now this... Every time it's the same profile.
But why are you repeatedly voicing your negative opinion over and over? It's one thing to say, "I think anime x is heavily cliched and complete crap. Here's why:..." once then leave. You're expressing your opinion on it, and that's fine.

However, you seem to take every opportunity to do so, then repeatedly beat that opinion down people's throats. Why go out of your way to do so? Why not just avoid discussions for series and topics you don't like? There's a fine line between expressing an unpopular opinion about something and trolling.

Further, you're speaking out of ignorance. As Mentar pointed out, none of the series you mentioned as bishoujo-game based actually are. In essence, you're criticizing and entire genre that you obviously aren't familiar with if you don't even know which series beong to it. Instead of saying it's all crap before you've seen any, why not try watching a series or two first, then forming an opinion? Better yet, don't say anything about the genre itself and criticize individual series in it for any flaws they might have. Oh, and note that criticize doesn't mean bash at every opportunity.
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Old 2006-07-17, 15:49   Link #29
MrProphet
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I don't care to discuss my own person here with strangers. I fail to see how it's of any relation to the topic at hand, yet several distortions need to be addressed. In advance, I'd like the mods and onlookers to pardon me for going so deep into an off-topic discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356
But why are you repeatedly voicing your negative opinion over and over?
Would you care to point out at least several such instances recently? Because I submit that you are not telling the truth.

Quote:
Why not just avoid discussions for series and topics you don't like?
Because I am not violating this board's rules by stating my opinion. And if fanboys can't keep their cool at the sight of someone saying one time that their Tin God is not the be all, end all of anime, then this is their problem, not mine.

But I would respectfully stress that I am not trolling any particular thread or person, nor did I ever do such a thing. A moderator would correct me if it were not so.

Quote:
Further, you're speaking out of ignorance. As Mentar pointed out, none of the series you mentioned as bishoujo-game based actually are.
Forgive me for enjoying more intelligent works of art instead of playing H-games and watching their anime adaptations. How could I ever live like that?!

PS: Could perhaps an anime like Da Capo be a datesim-to-anime convertion or am I wrong again? 8)
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Old 2006-07-17, 17:24   Link #30
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xris
Could you give a bit more explanation as to the point of the thread. At the moment it just seems to invite others to list their favourite Tsundere character and as such makes the thread rather meaningless (if all it's going to do is generate lists and no discussion).

And while you may have discovered what "Tsundere" means, I'm sure many others are still unclear, so how about telling people what it means to you (and maybe link some of the posts kj1980 has made on the topic).
I'll put the link up:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...18&postcount=1
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Old 2006-07-17, 23:19   Link #31
Yotsuba
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A few of my guy friends in Japan would use this to describe me and I never really knew what it meant. They'd introduce me to their friends and say "she's a tsundere type girl" and they'd all get excited.. I don't really agree with it. I mean, I may be a bit cold, but of course I'll be kind and loving to the person I like! If you are nice to everyone it can send out mixed messages. Aren't most girls like that?
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Old 2006-07-17, 23:27   Link #32
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yotsuba
A few of my guy friends in Japan would use this to describe me and I never really knew what it meant. They'd introduce me to their friends and say "she's a tsundere type girl" and they'd all get excited.. I don't really agree with it. I mean, I may be a bit cold, but of course I'll be kind and loving to the person I like! If you are nice to everyone it can send out mixed messages. Aren't most girls like that?
Hi,


wanna meet up?
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Old 2006-07-18, 00:40   Link #33
Yotsuba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Hi,


wanna meet up?

.... are you an idiot?


this isn't a dating site, you know. i'm not interested in having an otaku as a boyfriend.
girl's are only "dere" to guys they like, so most of you will only see the "tsun" part, sorry to say.
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Old 2006-07-18, 00:52   Link #34
Wesley
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Geez, you are mean.
Although you visit this forum, he doesn't know you are not otaku. So, give him a break.
How do you like a guy without knowing him? Your "like" is more likely mean you like his look. There's no right and wrong here since most guys' like is skin deep on this part, too.

Oh, Tsundere book looks nice.
http://harusuki.net/diary_shopping.html#050930
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Old 2006-07-18, 01:02   Link #35
Yotsuba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley
Geez, you are mean.
Although you visit this forum, he doesn't know you are not otaku. So, give him a break.
How do you like a guy without knowing him? Your "like" is more likely mean you like his look. There's no right and wrong here since most guys' like is skin deep on this part, too.

Oh, Tsundere book looks nice.
http://harusuki.net/diary_shopping.html#050930

No, I think that's why a tsundere type girl is automatically cold to every boy she meets, until she begins to like him because of something he does, or her feelings build over time. You can think I'm mean if you want. It's a bad quality in real life, but endearing and moé in anime characters? That's unfair.

The truth is if you met half these girls you love so much in life, you'd probably think they were a bitch, isn't that right?
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Old 2006-07-18, 01:15   Link #36
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley
Geez, you are mean.
Although you visit this forum, he doesn't know you are not otaku. So, give him a break.
Eh, no need to defend me against a child

That response wasn't even remotely funny; I see my pokish fun is lost. A tsundere is fine and all, but a baka is not ; ) Also quite unbelievable to see that people would think all users, or at least the average user on this forum are otakus. Such narrow mindedness and stupidity.. Give people a little bit of praise or positive hint and they climb all over you. Amusing.
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Old 2006-07-18, 02:19   Link #37
Vexx
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My wife classifies as "tsundere" but I don't think she would react so violently to what was obviously a post intended in humor ... she'd say something scathingly sardonic and humorous back. I wouldn't describe a tsundere as "cold" ... more like hotblooded and fiery. Little fireballs....

1) Many posters on this forum are not otaku in the Japanese sense, we're enthusiasts who actually have other lives. Minus points for assuming...

2) Arias was making a bit of fun ... you apparently took him seriously (unless your response was *meant* to be a play on tsundere behavior... was it?).

To respond to your initial question, Yotsuba.. many girls are not like that... they encompass the whole personality spectrum, just like guys.
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Old 2006-07-18, 02:49   Link #38
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yotsuba
A few of my guy friends in Japan would use this to describe me and I never really knew what it meant. They'd introduce me to their friends and say "she's a tsundere type girl" and they'd all get excited.. I don't really agree with it. I mean, I may be a bit cold, but of course I'll be kind and loving to the person I like! If you are nice to everyone it can send out mixed messages. Aren't most girls like that?
That's exactly why I think that the "tsundere" label is used waaay too quickly nowadays. I suspect that many people think that being tsuntsun to someone and deredere to someone else satisfies the requirement for "tsundere". But it's exactly as you said - most people are like that, aren't they?

In my book, you'd be a tsundere if the boyfriend you're in love with now had been someone you hated and whacked down for quite a while, before you had a change of heart and changed your attitude towards him completely. Up to you to decide whether or not this description fits for you
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Old 2006-07-18, 02:55   Link #39
Yotsuba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
My wife classifies as "tsundere" but I don't think she would react so violently to what was obviously a post intended in humor ... she'd say something scathingly sardonic and humorous back. I wouldn't describe a tsundere as "cold" ... more like hotblooded and fiery. Little fireballs....

1) Many posters on this forum are not otaku in the Japanese sense, we're enthusiasts who actually have other lives. Minus points for assuming...

2) Arias was making a bit of fun ... you apparently took him seriously (unless your response was *meant* to be a play on tsundere behavior... was it?).

To respond to your initial question, Yotsuba.. many girls are not like that... they encompass the whole personality spectrum, just like guys.

2) pin-pon! a bit slow on the uptake, ne. i have a boyfriend, and he's not only an otaku, he's a hikikomori and a lolicon. i scored bigtime, haha. <3
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Old 2006-07-18, 03:59   Link #40
Vexx
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My wife loligoths up for halloween (actually its more of a "perky goth") ... I'm not sure she's clued in that I find it very attractive. This year I'm making her little openmouthed skull ties for her twin ponytails like the little golfer Kooh wears in the online Pangya golf game.
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