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Old 2006-07-18, 08:19   Link #41
DaFool
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yotsuba
No, I think that's why a tsundere type girl is automatically cold to every boy she meets, until she begins to like him because of something he does, or her feelings build over time. You can think I'm mean if you want. It's a bad quality in real life, but endearing and moé in anime characters? That's unfair.

The truth is if you met half these girls you love so much in life, you'd probably think they were a bitch, isn't that right?
Most RL women I come across are cold all the way, with the "I am too good for you so fuck off" attitude. I haven't exactly encountered any dere-dere traits...maybe sexy, maybe slightly cute, but definitely not loving nor caring. Well...okay not loving nor caring immediately, but at least open and affable from the get-go.

Vexx is right on about the ice-queen archetype. The difference is that in the East (and yes I've seen this also in several HK movies), she's meltable because she wants to. In the West, you have to break / shatter her, which isn't fair to her in any case.

The point of being dere-dere only to the one you like is moot if chances are you've already scared him off. Well, duh everyone is dere-dere to the ones they like or love. Tsundere personalities are still approachable, that's the big difference.
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Old 2006-07-18, 08:54   Link #42
Shirobane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yotsuba
No, I think that's why a tsundere type girl is automatically cold to every boy she meets, until she begins to like him because of something he does, or her feelings build over time. You can think I'm mean if you want. It's a bad quality in real life, but endearing and moé in anime characters? That's unfair.

The truth is if you met half these girls you love so much in life, you'd probably think they were a bitch, isn't that right?
I have to ask, do you ever get fed up being labelled Tsundere from your friends? I honestly don't have a clue how one would act in real life to be labelled that way. A large portion of my female friends are simply strong people and not necessarily cold, would that count?

However though, I think Tsundere characters are endearing in fiction because they are in fiction in the first place. The readers/viewers aren't subjected to the "abuse" that the main character goes through yet they get to see the character progression. Sort of like reaping the rewards without the work if you will.
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Old 2006-07-18, 09:02   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirobane
I have to ask, do you ever get fed up being labelled Tsundere from your friends? I honestly don't have a clue how one would act in real life to be labelled that way. A large portion of my female friends are simply strong people and not necessarily cold, would that count?

However though, I think Tsundere characters are endearing in fiction because they are in fiction in the first place. The readers/viewers aren't subjected to the "abuse" that the main character goes through yet they get to see the character progression. Sort of like reaping the rewards without the work if you will.

Well, I more see myself as just being a bit strict with them, I guess? I'm not their girlfriend, and I don't want them to think they can get away with stupid stuff around me, that's all. But at the same time, I care about my friends a lot and if they were hurt, or having a problem, I'd definitely listen to them and let them cry if they wanted. I want to do my best just like anyone else.
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Old 2006-07-18, 12:52   Link #44
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Just wondering but was the earliest tsundere Ayaka Morikawa (I think) from Kimagure Orange Road?

That's the oldest series that I can think of that had such an active Tsundere character.
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Old 2006-07-18, 13:01   Link #45
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I don't know what's sadder, criticizing "tsudere" as being a camouflaged 1D personality or insisting that it isn't. Tsundere is a new name for a very old ARCHETYPE. It's a model of a balance of temperaments that have proven profitable in fiction, and I can't count the number of female characters who resemble Lina Inverse or Akane Tendo. It's like the way artists set up the outline of a face before actually drawing it. the overall outline is pretty stable, but the end result ranges all the way from Mona Lisa in the louvre to my stuff.
As far as I know, no woman in real life or fiction is ever entirely "tsuntsun" or "deredere". As Prophet said, general personality can often be decomposed into a simple balance of temperaments, with the exception of mental instabilities. The girls are often designed with a strong temperament because it leads to potential conflict and comedy, and because the authors can find a way for her to be won over. The real question is how well the author can construct motives and history to back up the start and the change. Even so, i generally don't expect too much from TV anime, since the deadlines put some limit to the depth that can be created.
All that said, I too enjoy this popular archetype, partly because I like the comedy.
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Old 2006-07-18, 13:36   Link #46
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The thing is.. its an "archetype" ... meaning a template from which a more complex character can be created ... or a label to apply to a more complex character to simplify analysis. Like any other stereotype, people land along the bell curve in various points. My redheaded best friend could be described as hot tempered but he's also quite capable of much more subtle diplomacy (provided he's not drinking). My wife lands in a tsundere category... but she spends a lot of time laughing as much as Tsuruya in the Haruhi series and shares some of her aspects as well.

Its the same problem I used to run into with my humanities teacher in high school. Throwing a label on a character can have the effect of discounting the variances which make them more interesting and less "cardboard".
Motoko/Love Hina does not equal Yuri/Magikano, for example though they share some features.

(sidenote: Sturgeon's Law is something I invoke occasionally, especially when describing things but in reality, it is a collapse of the statistical curve. It is hyperbolic and therefore not accurate.)

This archetype is one of my favorites but if it were the same static personality repeatedly it would get boring ... what is interesting is watching for the variances.
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Old 2006-07-18, 15:15   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
The thing is.. its an "archetype" ... meaning a template from which a more complex character can be created ... or a label to apply to a more complex character to simplify analysis. Like any other stereotype, people land along the bell curve in various points. My redheaded best friend could be described as hot tempered but he's also quite capable of much more subtle diplomacy (provided he's not drinking). My wife lands in a tsundere category... but she spends a lot of time laughing as much as Tsuruya in the Haruhi series and shares some of her aspects as well.
Your wife is tsundere AND Tsuruya at the same-time?

Mmm.... mmmmm..... I hear you go out on work trips sometimes..?
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Old 2006-07-18, 15:35   Link #48
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This term is getting out of hand with its overuse.

I think we need to tighten up the definition of TsunDere here a bit, or the label will fit on just about everyone.

This is my feeling:

TsunTsun: being for more rude/harsh/ and unfriendly than normal. prickly, unsociable, arrogant whatever. A TsunDere is 90+% TsunTsun, and is their default mode. Usually they are like this for a reason: being nobility, or simply being jealous. Few people can afford to be this way for long, because you wont have many friends or business associates left in short order.

DereDere: fawning, happy, goofy, silly, blushing, needy. Almost noone is like this all the time, though some people tend to be happy and silly alot.


Cordial: the vast majority of people are sufficiently friendly and normal. They are seldom pricly except when pissed off, and seldom deredere except when drunk.
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Old 2006-07-18, 16:22   Link #49
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Your wife is tsundere AND Tsuruya at the same-time?

Mmm.... mmmmm..... I hear you go out on work trips sometimes..?
Heh... that's the problem when labeling characters (or real people). They rarely actually fit the so-called cardboard stereotype unless the writer is really bad (or the person is psychotic). None of the pegs exactly fit the slots.

Besides... though she still gets carded, she's probably old enough to be your mom
[she's one of those small perky japanese types with long hair ... put her in twin tails and since she has to shop in the teen section... she's always getting carded and I'm always getting glared at]

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-07-18 at 16:54.
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Old 2006-07-18, 19:03   Link #50
Decel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srin Tuar
This term is getting out of hand with its overuse.

I think we need to tighten up the definition of TsunDere here a bit, or the label will fit on just about everyone.

This is my feeling:

TsunTsun: being for more rude/harsh/ and unfriendly than normal. prickly, unsociable, arrogant whatever. A TsunDere is 90+% TsunTsun, and is their default mode. Usually they are like this for a reason: being nobility, or simply being jealous. Few people can afford to be this way for long, because you wont have many friends or business associates left in short order.

DereDere: fawning, happy, goofy, silly, blushing, needy. Almost noone is like this all the time, though some people tend to be happy and silly alot.


Cordial: the vast majority of people are sufficiently friendly and normal. They are seldom pricly except when pissed off, and seldom deredere except when drunk.
90%? That's a tad harsh. Also, a tsundere character doesn't require to be tsuntsun towards everyone. School Rumble's Sawachika Eri is definitely a tsundere but you don't see her act cold, unsociable, arrogant, etc.

Akane Tendou was definitely my first tsundere character. My (current) favourite one is Ami Ninomiya from Rough. I'm assuming that she qualifies as a Tsundere, but she's definitely not 90% tsuntsun.
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Old 2006-07-18, 19:26   Link #51
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Besides... though she still gets carded, she's probably old enough to be your mom
[she's one of those small perky japanese types with long hair ... put her in twin tails and since she has to shop in the teen section... she's always getting carded and I'm always getting glared at]
I understand.. when I was 17, my ex (same age) was still getting offers for kid's meals at restaurants. She was thought to be in grade 5.

So your wife has to shop in the teen section for...?
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Old 2006-07-18, 23:04   Link #52
Shirobane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yotsuba
Well, I more see myself as just being a bit strict with them, I guess? I'm not their girlfriend, and I don't want them to think they can get away with stupid stuff around me, that's all. But at the same time, I care about my friends a lot and if they were hurt, or having a problem, I'd definitely listen to them and let them cry if they wanted. I want to do my best just like anyone else.
Heh fair enough. So then under that description, I'd have to say that only one of my female friends exhibit similar qualities (all my other female firends seem to be more of the genki type ). I guess she could be considered bitchy/strict but I find her fun . She mixes in scathing sarcasm in her words sometimes that can really only be discovered if a response with the same level of sarcasm is offered. There's definately a degree of unpredictability in chatting with her. However she does care a bout her friends and would go out of her way to help them.

I question the practicality of comparing a real person to a fictional archetype though - especially the dere side. Given the female's maternal instincts, wouldn't the dere side just be something present in all women?
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Old 2006-07-19, 00:27   Link #53
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
I understand.. when I was 17, my ex (same age) was still getting offers for kid's meals at restaurants. She was thought to be in grade 5.

So your wife has to shop in the teen section for...?
<rofl> i can see where this is going... everything except her bra....

The clothing industry recently "resized" sizes again and she dropped from a size 2 adult dress to a size 0 just by showing up a day late. So when a woman tells you she wears a "size X" ... it doesn't mean anything anymore. They're fritzing the sizes to make women feel better instead of telling them to move faster.

And now we're totally offtopic .... gomen.
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Old 2006-10-24, 17:36   Link #54
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Who was the first Tsundere?

Who was the first Tsundere in anime?

I was thinking about it when I was writing in the thread about revolationary anime.

The earliest anime girl I can think off would be Asuka. And maybe before Asuka it would Misa Hayes form Macross.

Can anyone think of anyone earlier then Asuka?
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Old 2006-10-24, 17:41   Link #55
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Akane from Ranma½ is kind of Tsundere. Ranma aired before Eva, so if she counts, then she is earlier.
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Old 2006-10-24, 17:43   Link #56
Sheba
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I kinda remember Kaori Makimura from City Hunter following the pattern of a tsundere, but not as obvious.
Madoka Ayukawa from Orange Road could be a candidate too.
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Old 2006-10-24, 18:32   Link #57
DanielSong39
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Kyoko Otonashi from Maison Ikkoku is a perfect example...

Certainly, she is an example of a tsundere who nevertheless has a well-developed, multifaceted personality. And she has very good reason for switching from one mode to the other.
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Old 2006-10-24, 18:42   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I kinda remember Kaori Makimura from City Hunter following the pattern of a tsundere, but not as obvious.
Madoka Ayukawa from Orange Road could be a candidate too.
I second Madoka as a true old school tsundere. Vintage 1987, I believe.
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Old 2006-10-24, 18:53   Link #59
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How about Lum, from Urusei Yatsura. 1978 I think.
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Old 2006-10-24, 19:00   Link #60
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I starting to grasp the concept. So say Akane is a tsundere, does this also apply the male counterpart, Ranma? I tought he was very interesting the way he always on edge with Akana, but when nobody is looking he was very sweet toward her. ^_^
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