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View Poll Results: What is their gender?
Both are male. 119 50.42%
Both are female. 105 44.49%
Dorii is male and Guraa is female. 6 2.54%
Guraa is male and Dorii is female. 6 2.54%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-08-09, 02:33   Link #341
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane
It is a meme, where the victim is lured into oogling an apparently hot chick, only to find out to his horror that said chick is in fact, a guy.

The actual meme is, "It's a trap!", a line said by Admiral Ackbar from Stars War.
Ic, thanks. You gotta give it to the people at 2chan/4chan. How the heck is Admiral Ackbar and males who pose as females related?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phelan_kell
who'd rather think the twins are female because they're just too cute and lovable to be male.
I think that males can be just as cute and lovable! Shippou!
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Old 2006-08-09, 03:08   Link #342
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost

I think that males can be just as cute and lovable! Shippou!
Quoted for truth (Toboe!)


Yep, the trap thing is a 4chan concoction, they are kind of a significant part of internet pop culture. The Orly and Ya rly owls originated from there, too.
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Old 2006-08-09, 11:14   Link #343
thundrakkon
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7
Again, a big one being how they kept all other major aspects of the characters the same for the anime from the game.
I think we get your point by now, again. So, it deserves another repeat point, which is they still left out the almighty scene where they stated that the twins are male in the game. Otherwise, twins = female in game without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7
It would be like "Why would they change that; just for the sake of it?". Again, if anyone wanted to argue that perhaps they did change their gender for the anime to give a bit more mass market appeal, wouldn't they want to make it obvious; make this stand loud and clear, and from the get-go...
The fact that they licensed this anime to ADV (US Company) probably just killed any hope of the twins being male in the anime. To appeal to the US market, you don't have a bunch of pretty girls, and then suddenly pull a fast one with who you think would be pretty girls but end up being gay boys. It would not bode well in the conservative US market if that were to happen.
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Old 2006-08-09, 15:50   Link #344
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
I think we get your point by now, again. So, it deserves another repeat point, which is they still left out the almighty scene where they stated that the twins are male in the game. Otherwise, twins = female in game without it.

Not really a good arguement, as the creator of the characters intended them to be male in the game, and thus, that is why they stated it in the game. No point to be made there; they didn't with hold that revelation in the game, it happened, so it is what it is. They didn't clearly state that they are male in the anime, but they haven't stated they are female, either, but you seem to think just because they didn't state that, that would automatically mean they are female? I think the point I reiterated and you commented on is a good and valid point. I don't think saying that the must be female since they didn't specifically say they are male in the anime is something that holds much weight.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
The fact that they licensed this anime to ADV (US Company) probably just killed any hope of the twins being male in the anime. To appeal to the US market, you don't have a bunch of pretty girls, and then suddenly pull a fast one with who you think would be pretty girls but end up being gay boys. It would not bode well in the conservative US market if that were to happen.

I don't think that is a good arguement, either. It is not like ADV hasn't liscensed anime with homosexual characters before, and that consersative America thing is not a good arguement, either. They have Gravitation, Kyo Kara Maoh, and even Loveless liscensed and on the shelves of US retail stores for pete's sake. If you don't know about Loveless, it is a shounen ai anime that borders on lite yaoi. Also, Mai Hime is being released, and has some lesbian couples, and Noir has been out for awhile, and 3 or 4 main characters are lesbians. These animes and others that have homosexual characters and clear displays of such characters having intimate interactions are in US retail stores. So why would it be a big deal if the two twins were gay males and in one episode of Utawa it very briefly shows them sleeping next to Oboro (and the nudity is minimal, as they have the blanket)? If they are indeed male, that is a very small dose of shounen ai material and yaoi undertones. Let me tell you, that sure is tame compared to just episode one of Loveless, and I saw some DVDs of it at Best Buy several days ago.
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Old 2006-08-09, 18:57   Link #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7
It is not like ADV hasn't liscensed anime with homosexual characters before, and that consersative America thing is not a good arguement, either. They have Gravitation, Kyo Kara Maoh, and even Loveless liscensed and on the shelves of US retail stores for pete's sake.
Simply put, these shows you mentioned are specific to that genre, with their specific demographics. You don't put a show aimed at war with a bunch of really pretty girls and throw in a gay theme and expect it to be well received. Those are two different types of genre that would not mix well in the US main population because one is aimed at raging harmoned men and the other is something that would irk that demographic.

ADV would not risk upsetting that really large demographic and place the subject material between the two. It would be bad strategic management, and I give ADV more credit than that.

Edit:
Almost forgot to mention that lesbian themes are more commonly accepted among this large demographic.
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Old 2006-08-09, 21:29   Link #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
You don't put a show aimed at war with a bunch of really pretty girls and throw in a gay theme and expect it to be well received. Those are two different types of genre that would not mix well in the US main population because one is aimed at raging harmoned men and the other is something that would irk that demographic.
As opposed to including it as a sub-theme in an 18+ visual novel aimed at the same sort of guys? The whole thing was meant as a joke in the first place you know... I don't think anyone will take it that seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
ADV would not risk upsetting that really large demographic and place the subject material between the two. It would be bad strategic management, and I give ADV more credit than that.
What ADV would not risk, in my opinion, would be censoring the show. Given the show's primary audience has always been fans in Japan, I doubt they'd change the show's content to appease conservative American tastes (a secondary audience at best). I said before that I don't believe they'll announce it one way or the other in the anime (to leave it as a "wink" to the game fans, who know the whole story), but I certainly don't believe that has anything to do with ADV or U.S. licensing whatsoever. I simply think it's more fun to leave it ambiguous.

And I still find this thread remarkable (how can the absense of one scene automatically, and without question, lead to an opposing conclusion?), but that's another story...
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Old 2006-08-09, 21:34   Link #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
And I still find this thread remarkable (how can the absense of one scene automatically, and without question, lead to an opposing conclusion?), but that's another story...
The fact that 98% of the members on this forum know the gender of Dorii & Gura.. and they still post on about it. ^^;
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Old 2006-08-10, 01:45   Link #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelsama
The fact that 98% of the members on this forum know the gender of Dorii & Gura.. and they still post on about it. ^^;
Hehe, yeah, today I was thinking of how I've participating in quite a good number of silly debates on forums over the years. At least this topic is this big and has been well maintained and under control (this forum is good, though, there are a lot of mature and respectable posters, for sure). I've been a part of discussions in a videogame board, in a sub section specifically for debates, and some people would go apesh*t over the stupidest things.

To Thundrakkon: I still think you are over amplifying the matter for your arguement. Going along with the scenario that if they are indeed male and are attracted to Oboro; as someone said, it is a very minor element in the show. It is not like some romance themed sub plot. It was a brieft scene played out in a comedic fashion with nothing explicit, it was just some implied sexual innuendo. And I should point out, ADV liscensed Noir, which has a handful of major characters that are lesbians, and it is cannon; it is made clear and obvious, there are intimate moments and kiss scenes and such. And you shouldn't say ADV wouldn't be as respectable for picking up an anime with homosexuality in it, even if it is a slight amount (see the "I give ADV more credit than that" remark), that comes off as a rather ignorant comment. And ADV is a respectable company, and I think they will do a good localization of this anime; I think Utawarerumono is in pretty good hands. They wouldn't censor this, the violence is not extreme, there is no real nudity, and the sexual innuendo is kept in check. It isn't like 4kidz got their hands on it (it is sad when any anime becomes liscensed by those guys; even if you aren't a fan of the series, it still sucks for anyone who is a fan of a series they pick up. ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And I still find this thread remarkable (how can the absense of one scene automatically, and without question, lead to an opposing conclusion?), but that's another story...
I very much share the same sentiments on that.
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Old 2006-08-10, 02:57   Link #349
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Agreed, that this is a minor point in the anime, but if we are going to debate, it's best to go all out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7
And I should point out, ADV liscensed Noir, which has a handful of major characters that are lesbians, and it is cannon;
I did point out that lesbian themes are more accepted within the demographics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7
And you shouldn't say ADV wouldn't be as respectable for picking up an anime with homosexuality in it, even if it is a slight amount (see the "I give ADV more credit than that" remark), that comes off as a rather ignorant comment.
Who says I wouldn't respect ADV for picking up homosexuality themed anime? My point was that there were two genres that usually do not come hand in hand, and as a marketing strategy (business world related, nothing to do with sexual orientation), it would not make sense to 1) try to please everyone (it is impossible to please everyone), or 2) try to market something in between (which puts you in no man's land). Both strategies spread you thin, and any good MBA graduate would know that. I am talking about business strategy, not sexual preference. Please get it straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelsama
The fact that 98% of the members on this forum know the gender of Dorii & Gura.. and they still post on about it. ^^;
Doesn't it make interesting debate? In the end, we are still trying to determine the gender they are in the anime, and I will sigh a relief if the anime reveals it one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Given the show's primary audience has always been fans in Japan, I doubt they'd change the show's content to appease conservative American tastes (a secondary audience at best)... I simply think it's more fun to leave it ambiguous.
You know what? I agree with most of your comments, and they are excellent points.

However, just for the sake of argument, let's imagine the possibility that ADV, in their negotiations, suggested to Aquaplus, Lantis, etc. to leave out or modify certain elements of the game for the anime. Or maybe, the Japan companies strategized about marketing the anime globally, without sacrificing too much locally. In that scenario, they might want to leave out certain questionable themes for a more global ("= more money") market. If you noticed already, they have toned down quite a bit of the "extra" relationships Hakuoro has with the rest of his harem and focused almost exclusively on Eruruu.

In the end, though, I agree with you that they most likely will keep the gender of the twins ambiguous in the anime. Although, it will be interesting to see how ADV will translate references to the twins, with either "he" or "she", or just try to avoid it altogether.
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Old 2006-08-10, 03:44   Link #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
However, just for the sake of argument, let's imagine the possibility that ADV, in their negotiations, suggested to Aquaplus, Lantis, etc. to leave out or modify certain elements of the game for the anime. Or maybe, the Japan companies strategized about marketing the anime globally, without sacrificing too much locally. In that scenario, they might want to leave out certain questionable themes for a more global ("= more money") market. If you noticed already, they have toned down quite a bit of the "extra" relationships Hakuoro has with the rest of his harem and focused almost exclusively on Eruruu.
That's certainly possible, but I find it more likely that the story was "focused" by the scriptwriters/series composition folks in order to condense it into a nice 26-episode whole. That tends to mean less "side-quests", especially in terms of relationships. This, of course, happens all the time, and is one of the more common reasons why people tend to say that the original is better than adaptations (because little things (and sometimes big things) get cut in the interests of time and focus). So, of course it's possible that International market considerations played into it, but I'm more inclined to credit it to the usual rationale: if you want the full story, buy the game!

In any event, though, I would still maintain that leaving certain subjects open to interpretation through the omission of certain scenes/facts doesn't lend itself to the belief that they diverged from the source material in those areas. It simply means they're not showing it in the anime. As the saying goes, "The absence of proof is not proof of absence."

Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
In the end, though, I agree with you that they most likely will keep the gender of the twins ambiguous in the anime. Although, it will be interesting to see how ADV will translate references to the twins, with either "he" or "she", or just try to avoid it altogether.
This is why there're two of them always together, opening the door to such wonderful nondescript references as "they", "the twins", "those two"/"you two", and so on. If it were just one person it'd be a bit trickier, but with a pair that's always together it gets much simpler.
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Old 2006-08-10, 04:09   Link #351
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Who says I wouldn't respect ADV for picking up homosexuality themed anime? My point was that there were two genres that usually do not come hand in hand, and as a marketing strategy (business world related, nothing to do with sexual orientation), it would not make sense to 1) try to please everyone (it is impossible to please everyone), or 2) try to market something in between (which puts you in no man's land). Both strategies spread you thin, and any good MBA graduate would know that. I am talking about business strategy, not sexual preference. Please get it straight.
This supports what I had said; you are over amplifying this one particular thing for your arguement. You said these two genres don't go hand in hand, but, going with the idea that the twins are males, Utawa doesn't have anything that makes it part shounen ai genre. Its genre is fantasy and action/adventure. It isn't part shounen ai genre. If it had been something like viewers know the twins are males, without a doubt, and there was a romance sub plot with them and Oboro, that would be one thing. That would have the series contain enough shounen ai material where it would be a case of "marketing something in between". But that is not the case. Going with the idea that the twins are male, again, there was just that one instance where sexual innuendo was implied amongst the twins and Oboro. Again, being a very minor scene and conveyed in a manner that is comedic. So I don't think it is a case of your second point, "trying to market something in between". If we go with the idea that it is that scenario, that they are male and there was that amusing scene, it really doesn't go much beyond that, and is so small, it doesn't give the series a shounen ai sub genre.

And I just thought of something; why would they include that scene in the anime, anyway? Considering this is an anime based off an ero-game with explicit scenes (whereas the anime opted to not have this element), why is it that that scene is one of two scenes that show some more implied sexual innuendo after 18 episodes (second one being Karura coming on to to Hakauro in ep. 18). Well, my 2 cents is that the Oboro/twins bed scene is there as a comedic scene, simply put, basically taken from a comedic scenario in the game (the comedy of it intended for the viewers basically being "Haha, uh oh, Oboro got owned right there"). The second scene, with Karura; its reason for being in there? For quite a different reason: it relates to an important plot development in the game, and important character interaction, namely to help deepen the bond between Hakauro and Eruuruu.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
In the end, though, I agree with you that they most likely will keep the gender of the twins ambiguous in the anime. Although, it will be interesting to see how ADV will translate references to the twins, with either "he" or "she", or just try to avoid it altogether.
I also agree, and stated something similar a couple of posts back. I have my viewpoint that they left their genders the same in the anime and have offered my input on why I think this is the case in various posts, but putting that aside, I think that not clearly confirming what gender they are in the anime and leaving it open to interpretation would be rather good, as it would allow people standing on either side of the topic to have their own opinion on the matter, hehe.
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Old 2006-08-11, 17:13   Link #352
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I suppose now that if they are following the game closely on writing, this will follow the same as well. My guess its they are waiting for a humorous point needed in a show to make us all spit our tea all over our monitors errr tvs laughing so abruptly at it.

I can imagine somewhere some parents of twins dressing 2 boys in like clothes to get them to get along and those twos parents knew how to sew girls clothes so....

who knows.
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Old 2006-08-11, 19:44   Link #353
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Girls clothes? It seems like their attire is modeled after clothes males would wear during the time of medival Japan.


Two things I noticed in episode 19:

About the "their voices sound like girls" arguement - If you listen to the voice of Karura's younger brother in the flashback scene, where he is about the twins age, his voice is very feminine, and I bet the VA was a woman for that minor role (the role of a younger Deh...Denih....Karura's younger brother ).

About the "hey, only girls have their ears going downward" arguement - As I stated earlier, you'll find other young male characters with ears going downward, but I noticed something in episode 19...the old man who looked after Karura's brother has his ears going downward, and some of the other guys in the rebellion do, too (I remember in the very beginning of that episode, when Eruuruu is tending care to a wounded fighter laying on the ground, his ears pointed downward).
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Old 2006-08-12, 22:28   Link #354
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Ehhhh, i join this forum a new days ago and i dont wanna read though all those pages, so ill just post what i think >_>

i think they are both female cause wernt they called "she" in someone of the show?>.> Probably not if no one has mentioned it in any of the 18 pages though-.-
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Old 2006-08-12, 22:34   Link #355
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Originally Posted by FantasyWarz
Ehhhh, i join this forum a new days ago and i dont wanna read though all those pages, so ill just post what i think >_>

i think they are both female cause wernt they called "she" in someone of the show?>.> Probably not if no one has mentioned it in any of the 18 pages though-.-
Short answer: Nope.

They have never been referred to as females.
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Old 2006-08-13, 00:30   Link #356
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Originally Posted by Skane
Short answer: Nope.

They have never been referred to as females.
Not directly, but indirectly by the merchant.
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Old 2006-08-13, 01:29   Link #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon
Not directly, but indirectly by the merchant.

It is definately open to interpretation. Again, looking at the screen cap, he says "...to jewelry that would look beautiful on women". It depicts the twins playing with the jewelry during the time he says this. Now, is this a confirmation of them being female? I say no. It is certainly open to interpretation, but let it be known it is in no way a confirmation that they had their genders switched in the anime. The other way to interpret that little scene is that it plays around with the joke about the twins being girly and gay in the game; a little dose of humor being that as the merchant is talking about jewelry that would look nice on women (and that is all he says), the camera focuses on the twins playing with the jewelry, the dose of humor being how feminine and womanly they can be. That is one interpretation. Again, looking at the big picture and many different points that have been made about how they are probably male in the anime; especially the point about how they kept the characters true to how they are in the game for the anime in regards to appearances, personalities, and characteristic traits, I think it makes it all the more likely that the interpretation that this little scene makes references to some aspects of their character in the game all the more likely.

The opposing interpretation is that right there in that scene, through the merchant saying what he said, and the camera focusing on the two twins, the anime producers are given the message that the twins are actually female in the anime. But there are problems with that arguement; if the case is they decided to make them female in the anime, but it comes off seeming very apparent that the twins are just as they are in the anime universe as they are in the game universe, why would the animation company make it so discreet, this change so hard to discern, and the indication so vague (and that scene is the only thing that one could cite as a "strong" indicator they are female in the anime)? These three things apply if that was the scenario, and again, I think if they were to change a major aspect of the characters, they wouldn't make it so subtle and hard to determine; if they decided to have their genders changed for the anime rendition, they would very much most likely make the change clear and apparent and let the change be known easily.
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Old 2006-08-13, 02:03   Link #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7
The other way to interpret that little scene is that it plays around with the joke about the twins being girly and gay in the game; a little dose of humor being that as the merchant is talking about jewelry that would look nice on women (and that is all he says), the camera focuses on the twins playing with the jewelry, the dose of humor being how feminine and womanly they can be. That is one interpretation.
For what it's worth (which is to say, one drop in the big ocean of opinions), that's exactly the way I took it too. It's the same brand of tongue-in-cheek humour and irony they've been using all along on the subject, at least if you see it through that interpretation.
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Old 2006-08-14, 08:21   Link #359
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Crap I was hoping to come in and see someone post that episode 20 revealed their gender. I want closure dang it! Closure!
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Old 2006-08-17, 01:52   Link #360
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After listening to some of my Anime music, I came across an old BoA song, Every Heart, which was an ending song to Inuyasha. She repeated used the words Boku-tachi throughout the song, so I think from now on, my response to Boku-tachi in this thread will be:

Spoiler for BoA:


As mentioned many times throughout this thread, Boku is commonly used in the anime/music industry by females to portray boyish qualities in girls. I just don't want to continually have to repeat myself or give long repeated explainations that are really redundant and unnecessary at this point.
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