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Old 2006-08-13, 07:43   Link #81
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
No. I don't want to go 2-3 episodes with no fighting like in the CE. I don't mind talkin as long as it doesn't go on for 2-3 episodes. As long as the Talking is about something importing and doesn't does't drag on for 2-3 episodes I'm fine with it.
Well all the talking has some importance, does it not ? I mean, its not like they talk about favorite food or what type of movies they like
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Old 2006-08-13, 07:55   Link #82
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by Skyfall
Well all the talking has some importance, does it not ? I mean, its not like they talk about favorite food or what type of movies they like
It has some importance, but some times it doesn't. I consider flash back episodes talking episodes and I don't think anyone likes those.
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Old 2006-08-13, 10:11   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
It has some importance, but some times it doesn't. I consider flash back episodes talking episodes and I don't think anyone likes those.
Depends what kind of flashbacks it is. If it´s like the one where we got to hear Shinn´s thoughts and how he joined ZAFT or Durandal´s chess-episode. Then they´ll get my seal of approval.

Personally I often think there´s too much action and too little talking in mecha-anime.

If a show contains only action (without ever stopping up and reflecting on things) it gets boring after a while.
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Old 2006-08-13, 10:59   Link #84
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It depends on how well done the action is. Would you rather have METEOR spam from the last episodes of SEED or F91's dogfights?

The METEOR's unlimmited missiles and superaccurate insta-hit lasers got boring really fast for me...

On the other hand, I could watch F91's battle sequences till my eyes bleed and be entertained permenantly.
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Old 2006-08-13, 11:34   Link #85
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last_Hope
Depends what kind of flashbacks it is. If it´s like the one where we got to hear Shinn´s thoughts and how he joined ZAFT or Durandal´s chess-episode. Then they´ll get my seal of approval.

Personally I often think there´s too much action and too little talking in mecha-anime.

If a show contains only action (without ever stopping up and reflecting on things) it gets boring after a while.
See...I like good talking episodes, but that shit we got in seed Destiny...No! Like that Meer bull crap. I hate stuff like that.
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Old 2006-08-13, 21:43   Link #86
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"Meer" was an exceptionally well-written episode featuring an excellent voice performance by Tanaka Rie. While you may not like it, failing to recognize its good points sort of contradicts your first statement about liking "good talking episodes".
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Old 2006-08-13, 22:15   Link #87
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"Mia" was a hole used to plug a sinking ship...Yes Mia wound up being a more complexed character than we ever thought she was and the episode was by no means trash, but if it never existed, nothing about this series would change...The bad-timing of the ep must also have some consideration in judging it as it totally distorts the flow of a series ending...But i agree it does have some good points somehow which is a bit surprising for an ep created just so production on the series wasn't stopped...
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Old 2006-08-13, 22:28   Link #88
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If it were Lacus or Meer...I'd have Lacus for the morning and Meer for the night
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Old 2006-08-13, 22:31   Link #89
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The purpose of a particular episode has absolutely no bearing on how well-written it is. Similarly, wanting an episode to tackle a different subject may mean that one can dislike it, but it still has no bearing on its writing.

The only legitimate ways to point out "Meer" as an example of a poor "talking episode" is to show how it's either poorly written or poorly acted.
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Old 2006-08-14, 01:03   Link #90
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I like Gundam talking episodes, but not the recent ones in SEED and Destiny. The ones in Turn A, Zeta and 0080 are all really nice.

If only recent Gundam talking episodes were as entertaining as Full Metal Panic talking episodes
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Old 2006-08-14, 06:07   Link #91
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
The only legitimate ways to point out "Meer" as an example of a poor "talking episode" is to show how it's either poorly written or poorly acted.
There's no problem with the acting... But... How was it not poorly written? Maybe, if you're considering only that episode and ignoring the series' structure you can say that it had a good script, however it's not a stand alone feature... It was made near the ending of the series, stopping the entire plot for more than half of an episode just to analyze a secondary character, without ever bringing anything new out of that analysis. Besides some extremely minor details, everything could be noticed watching other episodes...
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Old 2006-08-14, 08:18   Link #92
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Obviously, "Meer" was a well-written episode because... it had good writing. In fact, it ranks up there among the best written Gundam episodes. NeonZ, your complaint is simply that it's timing was wrong, which may mean it's not to your taste, but it still has no bearing on its writing.

The OVAs tend to have much better writing and dialogue than the TV series; 0080 in particular, is very well done. Turn A started off well, but I thought that its later episodes were poor in comparison. Zeta's dramatic episodes are a real mixed bag; occasionally, some of its early episodes had flashes of brilliance, but some its later episodes had some of the most awful writing in all of Gundam.

In general, good dramatic episodes stem primarily from good characterization and good dialogue. Recent Gundam shows are lacking here, particularly when it comes to dialogue, but the older shows don't really fare all that much better. I would prefer it if a future Gundam show decided to draw its inspiration from an altogether different source (and maybe try to do something new in the process).
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Old 2006-08-14, 08:27   Link #93
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I'm sorry but i don't like the Meer episode. It was boring and pointless to me.
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Old 2006-08-14, 08:45   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
"Mia" was a hole used to plug a sinking ship...Yes Mia wound up being a more complexed character than we ever thought she was and the episode was by no means trash, but if it never existed, nothing about this series would change...The bad-timing of the ep must also have some consideration in judging it as it totally distorts the flow of a series ending...But i agree it does have some good points somehow which is a bit surprising for an ep created just so production on the series wasn't stopped...
LoL... once again you are creating your own spellings I see. Both American and Japanese recognize that the official name is Meer... and it appears on the card, perhaps it's time to move on, ne?

As for the Meer episode... I dunno. The previous episode surrounding the assassination attempt on Lacus was more interesting and better written than the Meer episode. There was nothing new gained in this episode that we as viewers didn't already know, so how everyone says this is a seemingly 'wonderful' and innovative episode is a bunch of bull.
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So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And it’s also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2006-08-14, 09:08   Link #95
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Quote:
Obviously, "Meer" was a well-written episode because... it had good writing. In fact, it ranks up there among the best written Gundam episodes. NeonZ, your complaint is simply that it's timing was wrong, which may mean it's not to your taste, but it still has no bearing on its writing.
My complaint isn't related only to taste. Gundam SEED Destiny is not made by a bunch of episodes only thematically related, or anything like that. "Meer" is not in a void where it can be judged completely on its own, ignoring everything else. It's an episode that failed to provide any kind of advancement or any relevant information. The timing is just one of the problems.

It basically is what many people call "filler". Most of that episode could be skipped without, in any way, changing the other episodes of the series or the interpretation of those episodes. It doesn't clarify any motivations which hadn't been shown before, it doesn't advance the story, not even characterization, it's just a failure as a character analysis. Compare it to Eva's last two episodes(or even Rei's monologue in Eva's first clip show), and its flaws become obvious.
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Old 2006-08-14, 11:33   Link #96
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Note the following:

Quote:
Obviously, "Meer" was a well-written episode because... it had good writing.
I don't think I need to say more about the "...".
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「では、人間は、何故、戦うのか?
戦うことに存在意義があるのかもしれない。
戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And it’s also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2006-08-14, 15:24   Link #97
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
I'm sorry but i don't like the Meer episode. It was boring and pointless to me.
And it’s an opinion that you’re completely entitled to. However, that alone does not necessarily make it a good example of a poor “talking show”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
As for the Meer episode... I dunno. The previous episode surrounding the assassination attempt on Lacus was more interesting and better written than the Meer episode. There was nothing new gained in this episode that we as viewers didn't already know, so how everyone says this is a seemingly 'wonderful' and innovative episode is a bunch of bull.
Nonsense. “Meer” was much better written than the previous episode. The only real knock on it is that it doesn’t do anything to advance the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
I don't think I need to say more about the "...".
I had to do it like that because a lot people seem to have the weird idea that good writing is dependent on its plot, or how it relates to other episodes, and the like. In reality, it only relates to the quality of the writing. It’s hardly my fault that some people can’t figure that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonZ
My complaint isn't related only to taste. Gundam SEED Destiny is not made by a bunch of episodes only thematically related, or anything like that. "Meer" is not in a void where it can be judged completely on its own, ignoring everything else. It's an episode that failed to provide any kind of advancement or any relevant information. The timing is just one of the problems.

It basically is what many people call "filler". Most of that episode could be skipped without, in any way, changing the other episodes of the series or the interpretation of those episodes. It doesn't clarify any motivations which hadn't been shown before, it doesn't advance the story, not even characterization, it's just a failure as a character analysis. Compare it to Eva's last two episodes(or even Rei's monologue in Eva's first clip show), and its flaws become obvious.
This is more an argument that the ending in general wasn’t very well planned. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the individual episodes were poor. If you’re trying to argue that a particular one wasn’t well written, you do have to show how this is so for that episode almost to the exclusion of all else.

As far as I’m concerned, accusations of “filler” are just a sign of a poster lacking the imagination to present a more concrete argument. An episode is either good or not; and this should be based solely on the basis of its own qualities. If it doesn’t fit into the surrounding episodes, then the show may qualify as having poor pacing or poor planning, but it says nothing about the qualities of that particular episode per se. Otherwise, it’s like saying that “Simpsons” is a bad show because it doesn’t fit in all that well with “The Family Guy” which just precedes it.

Accusing “Meer” as a poor characterization piece is a slightly more legitimate complaint, as that’s more of a personal interpretation.
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Old 2006-08-14, 16:27   Link #98
Skyfall
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Meer is a good piece of work by itself, and is well written no doubt and i might have truly enjoyed it at another time, but at that time, taking a look how the plot was advancing and how many holes there were left to fill, i have to say this episode was uncalled for, down to out right useless to the whole show at that given time, because it gives us an (good) insight about a secondary (deceased) character, which causes no character development in any of the remaning cast and doesnt advance the plot in any way and doesnt effect the series in any way.

I think in this case its propper to call it a filler, since it doesnt give even the slightest bit to the show and its plot/characters at the time, and the series wouldnt change in any way and it would cause no impact to the upcoming eps and plot, should one remove it, or simply skip it watching the show - he wouldnt feel he has missed anything in the slightest. It is a filler, nothing more.

Im not saying its a bad filler, its a very good one, no doubts here, its probably one of the best written eps, but its useles to the show, given that only few eps are left, and there is an immense amount of other things that could use development *cough* Shinn *cough*

Its an extremely good ep on its own, but its down right useless to the show.
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Old 2006-08-14, 17:13   Link #99
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It isn't a "good talking show" at all... it's just a rehash of material we already knew. So she narrated it... woo hoo. That's hardly interesting.

Quote:
I had to do it like that because a lot people seem to have the weird idea that good writing is dependent on its plot, or how it relates to other episodes, and the like. In reality, it only relates to the quality of the writing. It’s hardly my fault that some people can’t figure that out.
I was referring to the fact that you trailed off on your sentence making it look like an extreme struggle to find something decent to say about the episode. Good writing DOES need to relate to the plot somehow or another, otherwise you have a standalone episode that does nothing to the plot whatsoever... which this episode is guilty of doing no matter how you look at it. If you want to look at in in the fashion that it solidified the evilness of Dullindal, well that's entirely wrong as well. Dullindal didn't do anything evil until he enacted his Destiny Plan. Everything else before that was merely for peace. He eliminated the enemy and that was that. It's just that Kira and co misinterpreted it.
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「では、人間は、何故、戦うのか?
戦うことに存在意義があるのかもしれない。
戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And it’s also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2006-08-14, 20:35   Link #100
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
LoL... once again you are creating your own spellings I see. Both American and Japanese recognize that the official name is Meer... and it appears on the card, perhaps it's time to move on, ne?

As for the Meer episode... I dunno. The previous episode surrounding the assassination attempt on Lacus was more interesting and better written than the Meer episode. There was nothing new gained in this episode that we as viewers didn't already know, so how everyone says this is a seemingly 'wonderful' and innovative episode is a bunch of bull.
Didn't know America called her Meer...I just call everybody by their sub-name or the name I like the best...I don't know nobody named Durandal xD...Aslong as you understand who I'm talking about it isn't a big deal really...Or is it?

As for the rest for once we agree..."Meer" really added nothing despite it's nuainced look at the character...But once again they had no choice but to show it...that's all they had to show (It was pretty decent considering they had nothing else though)...
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